Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

One thing I don't doubt is that Sawyer will try and commit to balancing this game post-release.

He said or suggested that he won't work on the DLCs, so he might not have the chance to balance this one continuously.

Haha I could totally see Josh ending up continuing to work on PoE2's balance in his spare time even as he starts another project.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think we're missing the most important question here. If he's not on DLCs then he already has something else lined up.

 

[Sizzle]

I think we're missing the most important question here. If he's not on DLCs then he already has something else lined up.

It's been heavily hinted that if PoE2 is as successful as the first one, he'll get to work on his TB, classless, historical, Darklands-inspired dream RPG.

 

[fantadomat]

One thing I don't doubt is that Sawyer will try and commit to balancing this game post-release. I just hope he does it by counter-balancing instead of further streamlining.

The problem area is the Empower mechanic, everything leads back to that. They can't up the damage of spellcasters to match melee because Empowering casters will be insanely overpowered with no way to stop that since the resting isn't limited. If the resting is limited and spellcasters match the melee damage, then there would be no point to the Empower mechanic or resting anymore, and spellcasters would still be occasionally a bit more overpowered than melee because Empower does practically nothing for melee and they have no way to bridge that gap. If the resting is limited and they don't match the melee, what's the point of taking a caster even if Empowering will close the gap between them? Taking only melee will be easier, with better/consistent results and less bullshit. If the resting isn't limited and casters can only keep up with melee with constant Empowers, then they become ridiculously micro-management heavy, while also making Empower and resting vestigial and pointless, as they aren't limited at all and it's simply another button to press. See, every scenario is a lose-lose and there is no way around that unless they drastically change how the game plays for melee and casters and how the Empower mechanic works. Like casters having no damage at all and are utility/buff/debuff bots, while melee/ranged physical attacks are the only way to do damage, but that's obviously drastic to the extreme and a completely different system. It would require a complete rebalancing of the entire game.

Don't get it why they decided to put this system in the game. Just make magic powerful but not endless....like most rpgs. Put some decimating spells at high level be done with it.

 

[fantadomat]

I think we're missing the most important question here. If he's not on DLCs then he already has something else lined up.

It's been heavily hinted that if PoE2 is as successful as the first one, he'll get to work on his TB, classless, historical, Darklands-inspired dream RPG.

Are they pushing some kind of marketing? I don't see Infinitron going heavy on the shilling. I think that it is a nice moment for putting out a 11/10 review of the game.

 

[Lacrymas]

Don't get it why they decided to put this system in the game. Just make magic powerful but not endless....like most rpgs. Put some decimating spells at high level be done with it.

It's a substitute for the limited spells per rest. You always start with all your spells in each encounter. All they had to do is limit resting and everything would've fit into place, but they went with this retarded system that doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it.

 

[fantadomat]

Don't get it why they decided to put this system in the game. Just make magic powerful but not endless....like most rpgs. Put some decimating spells at high level be done with it.

It's a substitute for the limited spells per rest. You always start with all your spells in each encounter. All they had to do is limit resting and everything would've fit into place, but they went with this retarded system that doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it.

BG doesn't have limited resting and have some decimating spells,yet it gives you a challenge. A good team rpg needs some op spells in later levels,the important thing is to be fun.

 

[FreeKaner]

"Fun" is a meaningless buzzword.

 

[fantadomat]

"Fun" is a meaningless buzzword.

"balance" is even more meaningless buzzword.

 

[Infinitron]

The problem area is the Empower mechanic, everything leads back to that. They can't up the damage of spellcasters to match melee because Empowering casters will be insanely overpowered with no way to stop that since the resting isn't limited. If the resting is limited and spellcasters match the melee damage, then there would be no point to the Empower mechanic or resting anymore, and spellcasters would still be occasionally a bit more overpowered than melee because Empower does practically nothing for melee and they have no way to bridge that gap. If the resting is limited and they don't match the melee, what's the point of taking a caster even if Empowering will close the gap between them? Taking only melee will be easier, with better/consistent results and less bullshit. If the resting isn't limited and casters can only keep up with melee with constant Empowers, then they become ridiculously micro-management heavy, while also making Empower and resting vestigial and pointless, as they aren't limited at all and it's simply another button to press. See, every scenario is a lose-lose and there is no way around that unless they drastically change how the game plays for melee and casters and how the Empower mechanic works. Like casters having no damage at all and are utility/buff/debuff bots, while melee/ranged physical attacks are the only way to do damage, but that's obviously drastic to the extreme and a completely different system. It would require a complete rebalancing of the entire game.

Excuse me, but all of this stuff about resting being limited or unlimited. Isn't it basically the same argument that people on Something Awful made that led to creation of Empower in the first place? I'm pretty sure that Empower as a "per-rest resource" was left in the game precisely in order to cater to those people who played PoE1 as if resting was limited, even though in the big picture it really wasn't. So the intended audience for Empower wouldn't constantly micromanage it.

 

[FreeKaner]

"Fun" is a meaningless buzzword.

"balance" is even more meaningless buzzword.

Not at all, balance actually carries with it a tangible meaning that can be used to explain concepts. "Fun" on the other hand doesn't mean anything, it's for people to use when they cannot properly articulate what they enjoy or like about a particular thing and just default to a word that is supposed to allegedly explain why it's supposed to be appealing.

 

[Lacrymas]

BG doesn't have limited resting and have some decimating spells,yet it gives you a challenge. A good team rpg needs some op spells in later levels,the important thing is to be fun.

And that's why Mages were overpowered to the extreme, so much so that you were actively gimping yourself if you aren't playing a Mage. You have to consciously deviate to play another class. Sawyer's intentions are well-known, he wants Wizards to not be overpowered and each class to have merit, that doesn't preclude anyone from having "fun".

"balance" is even more meaningless buzzword.

No, it's not. Not only is it objectively measurable, it's the only way a class-based game can make sense. The IE games heavily slant towards Mages/Sorcerers, making the other classes merely footnotes to their gamebreaking natures and, by extension, fairly pointless.

Excuse me, but all of this stuff about resting being limited or unlimited. Isn't it basically the same argument that people on Something Awful made that led to creation of Empower in the first place? I'm pretty sure that Empower as a "per-rest resource" was left in the game precisely in order to cater to those people who played PoE1 as if resting was limited, even though in the big picture it really wasn't. So the intended audience for Empower wouldn't constantly micromanage it.

Who cares? It's ruining the combat now, better incise it before it starts to breed an infection.

 

[Infinitron]

Who cares? It's ruining the combat now, better incise it before it starts to breed an infection.

Your argument: Activating an Empower before every single cast of a spell (which you have no reason not to do because resting is effectively unlimited) is excessive micromanagement that makes combat unfun. Even though spells now take a longer time to cast so you can't cast as many of them.

Original argument about PoE1 made by Something Awful users: Rapidly casting every single spell you have in every battle (which you have no reason not to do because resting is effectively unlimited) is excessive micromanagement that makes combat unfun.

What counts as tedious micromanagement is somewhat subjective, but my guess is that in terms of measuring clicks, there are more of them in the original game, if you approach gameplay from this "actually, resting limitations are fake" perspective.

 

[aweigh]

You guys know what made me instrinsically understand the concept of "proper" balancing?

Fighting games. 20+ characters which each need to have 10-30+ different moves, however there cannot be any single character which is clearly superior to a majority of the rest of the characters.

Why? Because otherwise there is no point picking any other character except "larping", or more to the point: because then the game is not Tournament Viable, i.e. cannot be considered an eSport and is instead a mere "video game".

It was thanks to fighting games and the painstakin process of balancing so many characters so that each provide a different way of experiencing the game without the concepts of "better" and "worse" entering the picture, and how incredibly hard it is to achieve this said balance, that has made me truly appreciate RPG 'balancing'.

Why balancing is required for any which features the concept of multiple player avatars is not that difficult to understand. Some people sperg out unnecessarily over this and I think it shows they need to experience a broader spectrum of interactivity in video games (re: play more types of games).

EDIT: For bonus fun points... the fact that PoE 1 and PoE 2 'balancing' is in large parts tied to an animation system and married to an amount of frames of animation for the bulk of its combat interactivity renders PoE balancing even more similar to a fighting game than most other RPGs.

Balancing in fighting games is also married almost entirely (but not completely) to the game's animations and amount of frames per animation.

All in all this is just something about PoE I found curious to think about.

 

[Lacrymas]

Who cares? It's ruining the combat now, better incise it before it starts to breed an infection.

Your argument: Activating an Empower before every single cast of a spell (which you have no reason not to do because resting is effectively unlimited) is excessive micromanagement that makes combat unfun. Even though spells now take a longer time to cast so you can't cast as many of them.

Original argument about PoE1 made by Something Awful users: Rapidly casting every single spell you have in every battle (which you have no reason not to do because resting is effectively unlimited) is excessive micromanagement that makes combat unfun.

What counts as tedious micromanagement is somewhat subjective, but my guess that when it comes down to measuring clicks, there are more of them in the original game, if you approach gameplay from this "actually, resting limitations are fake" perspective.

Completely missing the point, lololololololo. My argument isn't that nonsense you wrote, it's that Empower makes it impossible to balance casters and melee with each other. Only one scenario makes Empower POINTLESSLY micromanagement heavy - resting is unlimited and casters can't keep up with melee if they don't Empower whenever they can. Just remove Empower altogether in that case and buff casters to keep up with melee regardless, it's pointless micromanagement otherwise. I haven't used the word "unfun" ever.

 

[FreeKaner]

I also think a lot of people mistake balancing for streamlining, while streamlining is a way to achieve balance, it isn't balance in itself. I don't necessarily enjoy streamlining in any type of game be it single-player or multi-player as I think that undermines the variety and depth a game can possess, similarly however a lack of balance which heavily skews the game towards only a particular type of style also undermines the variety and depth a game can possess. As aweigh said this is most obvious in multiplayer games such as fighting games, strategy games and the like where there is asymmetric balance.

Ideally for me a game should be balanced but not streamlined, I am fine with occasional concessions in balance in a single-player game to instead achieve a better variety, impact, depth or breadth, as the depth and breadth of a game's ruleset increases harder it becomes to balance. However just saying something like making a game "imbalanced" because that's "fun" is essentially not saying anything, it's like how a person might listen to a song and not understand why it's appealing to them and just think it's "fun" when there might be underlying skills in composition that is not obvious to them, or it might be "fun" despite lack of a quality not because of it.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's also important how much a certain thing is imbalanced. If it's just like 5-10% damage, then it's not a big deal, but if it's game-breaking like Mages in the IE games, then we have a problem.

 

[Infinitron]

Completely missing the point, lololololololo. My argument isn't that nonsense you wrote, it's that Empower makes it impossible to balance casters and melee with each other. Only one scenario makes Empower POINTLESSLY micromanagement heavy - resting is unlimited and casters can't keep up with melee if they don't Empower whenever they can. Just remove Empower altogether in that case and buff casters to keep up with mages regardless, it's pointless micromanagement. I haven't used the word "unfun" ever.

"Impossible" sounds too extreme. Seems clear that the vision behind Empower is to make spellcasters "bimodal" - you can either cast lots of weaker per-encounters freely without worrying about running out of a per-rest resource, or cast fewer more powerful spells with Empower. There are wrinkles to deal with here, but it's not an outrageous concept and it should be possible to pull off.

But anyway, I guess you don't care about eliminating the last vestige of D&D's per-rest legacy? OK then.

 

[fantadomat]

BG doesn't have limited resting and have some decimating spells,yet it gives you a challenge. A good team rpg needs some op spells in later levels,the important thing is to be fun.

And that's why Mages were overpowered to the extreme, so much so that you were actively gimping yourself if you aren't playing a Mage. You have to consciously deviate to play another class. Sawyer's intentions are well-known, he wants Wizards to not be overpowered and each class to have merit, that doesn't preclude anyone from having "fun".

"balance" is even more meaningless buzzword.

No, it's not. Not only is it objectively measurable, it's the only way a class-based game can make sense. The IE games heavily slant towards Mages/Sorcerers, making the other classes merely footnotes to their gamebreaking natures and, by extension, fairly pointless.

Excuse me, but all of this stuff about resting being limited or unlimited. Isn't it basically the same argument that people on Something Awful made that led to creation of Empower in the first place? I'm pretty sure that Empower as a "per-rest resource" was left in the game precisely in order to cater to those people who played PoE1 as if resting was limited, even though in the big picture it really wasn't. So the intended audience for Empower wouldn't constantly micromanage it.

Who cares? It's ruining the combat now, better incise it before it starts to breed an infection.

And BG games are far superior to PoE, i am not some kind of accountant to care about few numbers. I play rpgs for fun,never played BG as a mage,there are some pretty interesting mage companions in that game that can fill the party hole. I want to kill shit and have a really hard bosses from time to time. Still remember the twisted rune battle,great fun and no fucking balance! Scaling and too much balance are shit things.

 

[Lacrymas]

"Impossible" sounds too extreme. Seems clear that the vision behind Empower is to make spellcasters "bimodal" - you can either cast lots of weaker per-encounters freely without worrying about running out of a per-rest resource, or cast fewer more powerful spells with Empower. There are wrinkles to deal with here, but it's not an outrageous concept and it should be possible to pull off.

But anyway, I guess you don't care about eliminating the last vestige of D&D's per-rest legacy? OK then.

Except Empower isn't like that at all and isn't how it's used most often. It's to reset your per-encounter spells. You get way more damage and sustainability that way than Empowering a single spell. Melee don't get anything out of Empower as well, making a core mechanic meaningless for them. And at this point, there is no per-rest legacy, the way they tried to replace it is retarded and it makes the whole thing collapse on itself. Would I care if they just removed any pretenses for resting and resource management? No. Making resources matter requires a completely different development mindset and a completely different audience than they are going for, trying to half-cater to grognards, who see through these paper-thin manipulations, doesn't work. I'd much prefer they make the best game they can make without resource management than continuing this charade and everyone being worse off.

 

[Delterius]

The Pillars system worked pretty well, why did they change it?

 

[Background Character]

Man, all these problems

AND THE PROM IS TOMORROW

 

[Lacrymas]

The Pillars system worked pretty well, why did they change it?

Except it didn't and they haven't really changed anything. Resting was still vestigial, with no real tension. Like the IE games, surprising no-one. The only thing they added is this Empower nonsense (and Penetration, but that's different) that only makes things worse for no gain at all.

 

[Delterius]

The Pillars system worked pretty well, why did they change it?

Except it didn't and they haven't really changed anything. Resting was still vestigial, with no real tension. Like the IE games, surprising no-one. The only thing they added is this Empower nonsense (and Penetration, but that's different) that only makes things worse for no gain at all.

Was there supposed to be any tension, though?

 

[Infinitron]

"Impossible" sounds too extreme. Seems clear that the vision behind Empower is to make spellcasters "bimodal" - you can either cast lots of weaker per-encounters freely without worrying about running out of a per-rest resource, or cast fewer more powerful spells with Empower. There are wrinkles to deal with here, but it's not an outrageous concept and it should be possible to pull off.

But anyway, I guess you don't care about eliminating the last vestige of D&D's per-rest legacy? OK then.

Except Empower isn't like that at all and isn't how it's used most often. It's to reset your per-encounter spells. You get way more damage and sustainability that way than Empowering a single spell. Melee don't get anything out of Empower as well, making a core mechanic meaningless for them. And at this point, there is no per-rest legacy, the way they tried to replace it is retarded and it makes the whole thing collapse on itself. Would I care if they just removed any pretenses for resting and resource management? No. Making resources matter requires a completely different development mindset and a completely different audience than they are going for, trying to half-cater to grognards, who see through these paper-thin manipulations, doesn't work. I'd much prefer they make the best game they can make without resource management than continuing this charade and everyone being worse off.

How would you feel if Empower made spells cast as quickly as they did in PoE1?