Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Maculo]

Kiting has been effectively eliminated, not by preventing you from kiting, but by making it pointless to do so. Most of the time kiting accomplishes nothing. The only exception are a few disengage abilities and a certain cheesy combo of Chanter phrases that allows efficient kiting.

I would add certain Wizard and Ranger builds also can kite.

To return to Delterius' question though, I believe Sawyer still is actively trying to handle dump stats, crap builds, money sinks, and rest spam. Hence, we see the changes in the beta and PoE2.

 

[Lacrymas]

No, they don't.

I remember the build, but I cannot think of many other tank builds that dump constitution. Furthermore, I think that build only became viable with 3.0 and not 1.0, due to the added talents, gear, and respec at taverns. For me that is an exception to the trend of tank builds.

At 1.0, I cannot think of a tank build that dumped constitution.

Paladins can easily dump constitution at a high enough level, since they gain so much Deflection that it's almost impossible to touch them. Only the dragons could kill my Paladin tank and only if I wasn't fast enough with the buffs.

 

[fantadomat]

Is there a rpg experienced player/fan that uses rest spam? Most rpg players are capable enough to go a few battles without running out of health and spells. I rest only once most of my team were near death.

 

[Delterius]

The only way these games can enforce attrition and rest limits is by A) inserting a disclaimer every time you enter a 'dungeon' or 'adventuring sequence' and B) create some separate auto-save in case the player needs to backtrack and prepare better. But that sort of heavy handed approach is something people hardly want.

That leaves us with 'do away with attrition altogether' or just 'don't change anything'. People will do whatever they want. I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible. That's my choice. Most people should play on Normal and rest 4 times a day. That's their choice.

The handful of crazy people who backtrack and sleep at the inn 10 times a day probably don't even exist. Just like the mythical 'I loot every 2 GP chainmail in Baldur's Gate and that's the dev's fault'.

Now we have a game where mages are arcane archers, who spam weakass explosions that, strangely enough, deal competitive damage with mundane weapons. As opposed to something more elegant.

 

[aweigh]

Agh, i just spent about 2 straight hours going through the beta and all I can say is: I don't understand why they have further obfuscated absolutely every single system mechanic possible.

Oh, my character can cast this spell, excuse me this ability, and acquire the "Fit" condition? Awesome! Wait, the "Fit" condition is simply one extra layer of obfuscation added on top of an identical tool-tip from PoE 1 which told you the numerical information immediately? Argh!!!

To borrow Jason Liang's words: this complete devotion to the annihilation of the traditional class system in PoE (specifically PoE 2) is the antithesis to fundamental mechanically-driven role-playing in an RPG.

It's quite an impressive feat how Sawyer has managed to fill the game to the brim with character classes and ability nodes with the seeming intention of providing more managerial party advancement and yet, somehow, simultaneously achieved a further eroding of class individuality and tactical interactivity.

I never would have thought I'd find myself typing the following words but: if there is one game that provides a clear example of how multi-classing, as an archetype and concept, can reduce emergent node variety and interactivity by increasing simplified choice repition... then PoE 2 is that clear example.

tl;dr it appears to provide the illusion of player choice but in practicality excludes variety.

Also the micro is up the ying-yang. By my third (and most recent) play-through of PoE 1 I was already making almost-exclusively PASSIVE ABILITY-oriented party set-ups, and it looks like for PoE 2 my first playthrough will already be oriented towards PASSIVE ABILITIES.

Now while this all may appear to be very negative in reality it is still the same type of game play from PoE 1, and if you enjoyed that then you will enjoy this as well. For the record, I very much enjoyed PoE 1 and I can easily see myself enjoying PoE 2 as well, but I don't think I will have the energy to invest into deciphering all of the obfuscated mechanical allegory that is in PoE 2 in order to play through the game a 2nd and 3rd time simply to experiment with the systems.

Then again it also probably has to do with the fact that this Beta drops you into a Level 6 situation and I was already tired of leveling up the party members and tired of clicking shit by the time I finally started exploring the village.

A beta that dropped you into the game's beginning, or a simulacrum of such, like say a Beta which dropped you into an equivalent of the 1st Prologue Area dungeon from PoE 1 (the one where you have the two temporary story companions who die); that would have been a much better introduction.

 

[Delterius]

To borrow Jason Liang's words: this complete devotion to the annihilation of the traditional class system in PoE (specifically PoE 2) is the antithesis to fundamental mechanically-driven role-playing in an RPG.

stop

quoting

wrong

things

please

 

[aweigh]

I do admit that most of my complaints, if complaints they are at all, are related to the game's "presentation", i.e. the game UI and how it presents information to the player.

The level up screens themselves are absolutely cancerous and yet another example of changing something for the worse for no reason?

 

[Lacrymas]

I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible.

The psychological reaction to dwindling resources is what's important. You may try to fight to the skin of your teeth, but you know deep down that you always can come back to the mythical rest button, which eliminates all tension and makes the whole resting system pointless.

 

[Infinitron]

Then again it also probably has to do with the fact that this Beta drops you into a Level 6 situation and I was already tired of leveling up the party members and tired of clicking shit by the time I finally started exploring the village.

A beta that dropped you into the game's beginning, or a simulacrum of such, like say a Beta which dropped you into an equivalent of the 1st Prologue Area dungeon from PoE 1 (the one where you have the two temporary story companions who die); that would have been a much better introduction.

Always a problem. Imagine how bad this was with the PoE1 beta when people had no familiarity with these systems at all and the game was way buggier. There was mass hysteria. I bet you don't remember when a desperate Anthony Davis came here to complain that the Codex was sending trolls to the Obsidian forums to shit on the game. :D

 

[Lacrymas]

Also the micro is up the ying-yang. By my third (and most recent) play-through of PoE 1 I was already making almost-exclusively PASSIVE ABILITY-oriented party set-ups, and it looks like for PoE 2 my first playthrough will already be oriented towards PASSIVE ABILITIES.

I've mentioned this already, but this isn't due to micro. It's because passive abilities are more powerful than active ones (since they are active all the time), active abilities compete with each other for resources and they compete with passive abilities for level-up points.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible.

The psychological reaction to dwindling resources is what's important. You may try to fight to the skin of your teeth, but you know deep down that you always can come back to the mythical rest button, which eliminates all tension and makes the whole resting system pointless.

Does the existence of save game button make saving system pointless.?
Does the existence of New Game button make playing current game pointless?

WTF?

 

[Maculo]

No, they don't.

I remember the build, but I cannot think of many other tank builds that dump constitution. Furthermore, I think that build only became viable with 3.0 and not 1.0, due to the added talents, gear, and respec at taverns. For me that is an exception to the trend of tank builds.

At 1.0, I cannot think of a tank build that dumped constitution.

Paladins can easily dump constitution at a high enough level, since they gain so much Deflection that it's almost impossible to touch them. Only the dragons could kill my Paladin tank and only if I wasn't fast enough with the buffs.

Alright, but I presume those builds require at least one respec once you gain the requisite amount of Deflection. Prior to the respec feature, I don't recall a dedicated tank character dumping constitution or resolve (deflection).

Is there a rpg experienced player/fan that uses rest spam? Most rpg players are capable enough to go a few battles without running out of health and spells. I rest only once most of my team were near death.

I think that actually illuminates part of the problem though. Let's say your characters were near death at the end of each fight. You just rest and reset. It undercuts the tension when you can easily reset the situation. At the very worst, you have to run back to town and buy more supplies, and it is not as if gold was hard to acquire in PoE1.

 

[fantadomat]

The only way these games can enforce attrition and rest limits is by A) inserting a disclaimer every time you enter a 'dungeon' or 'adventuring sequence' and B) create some separate auto-save in case the player needs to backtrack and prepare better. But that sort of heavy handed approach is something people hardly want.

That leaves us with 'do away with attrition altogether' or just 'don't change anything'. People will do whatever they want. I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible. That's my choice. Most people should play on Normal and rest 4 times a day. That's their choice.

The handful of crazy people who backtrack and sleep at the inn 10 times a day probably don't even exist. Just like the mythical 'I loot every 2 GP chainmail in Baldur's Gate and that's the dev's fault'.

Now we have a game where mages are arcane archers, who spam weakass explosions that, strangely enough, deal competitive damage with mundane weapons. As opposed to something more elegant.

My first playtrough of BG2 was collecting every 2gp chain mail ,after some time i came to the conclusion that the smaller things are worth more and most weapons and armour are cheap trash.

Also i am kind of guy that goes to town to heal in some games like gothic and Spiredweb's games. I hate using potion,unless that is the only way to heal in the game. Never used a health potion in any PB game . The good old hour of bedrest is the king.

As a whole i agree with you mate.

 

[fantadomat]

I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible.

The psychological reaction to dwindling resources is what's important. You may try to fight to the skin of your teeth, but you know deep down that you always can come back to the mythical rest button, which eliminates all tension and makes the whole resting system pointless.

We are still talking about rpgs and not about survival trash games....right?

 

[Lacrymas]

Is this some covert attempt at underestimating or denying the effects of psychology? Tension is always a psychological response, it's not ...something else. The added benefit of difficulty through resource management is tension. Remove that tension and it's all for naught, just remove the resting entirely.

 

[fantadomat]

Is this some covert attempt at underestimating or denying the effects of psychology? Tension is always a psychological response, it's not ...something else. The added benefit of difficulty through resource management is tension. Remove that tension and it's all for naught, just remove the resting entirely.

It is a game with a quick load key....How do you get tension from playing such a game? More like annoyance that you have to replay something or exhilaration that you have met your match.

 

[Maculo]

Is this some covert attempt at underestimating or denying the effects of psychology? Tension is always a psychological response, it's not ...something else. The added benefit of difficulty through resource management is tension. Remove that tension and it's all for naught, just remove the resting entirely.

It is a game with a quick load key....How do you get tension from playing such a game? More like annoyance that you have to replay something or exhilaration that you have met your match.

Yeah, but do you remember PoE1 load times though? If not for easy camping, there would be a psychological tension.

If anything, PoE1's load times did a better job than the resting mechanic.

 

[Delterius]

I only rested in PoE when it made sense to do so and even so I did my best to use all resources at my disposal and cast abilities as efficiently as possible.

The psychological reaction to dwindling resources is what's important. You may try to fight to the skin of your teeth, but you know deep down that you always can come back to the mythical rest button, which eliminates all tension and makes the whole resting system pointless.

TBH I'm not persuaded this important at all.

This sort of feeling is the appeal of Ironman runs, roguelikes and even some oldass MMOs where death negates 4 months of grinding. And the reason for that is in the split second: one wrong decision in a fight and that's it. You're down.

Attrition on the other hand lies in the realm of strategy. The realization that you lack the resource sto tackle the dungeon comes down slowly and surely. And guess what? You reload. Or you backtrack. Either way, you prepare better. The heart doesn't skip a beat because this is primarily an issue of the mind.

This is why PoE1 already worked, regardless of our nitpicks. There the rest system was a means to A) Balance Vancian casters and other characters in asymmetrical ways and B) serve as a soft limitation on the player's powers. It was good enough for what it was.

Now, if you want to implement something like what you're talking about you'll want to look at Roguelikes and Blobbers. Where dungeons and fights are long as all hell and save points are scarce. Something that nobody really wants in an IE successor series.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always rest. It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always reload. It doesn't matter if I full wipe in Iron Man mode, I can always start a New Game. If the very possibility of starting over removes all the tension, then you're not gonna have any tension, anywhere ever, because every game gives you options to start over.

 

[fantadomat]

Is this some covert attempt at underestimating or denying the effects of psychology? Tension is always a psychological response, it's not ...something else. The added benefit of difficulty through resource management is tension. Remove that tension and it's all for naught, just remove the resting entirely.

It is a game with a quick load key....How do you get tension from playing such a game? More like annoyance that you have to replay something or exhilaration that you have met your match.

Yeah, but do you remember PoE1 load times though? If not for easy camping, there would be a psychological tension.

If anything, PoE1's load times did a better job than the resting mechanic.

I never had any problems with the load times,have a pretty good processor. Also there were not many hard battles in it,two dragons and a undead lord. The rest were beatable. The dragon battles did manage to annoy me.

 

[aweigh]

The psychological impact of dwindling resources is the atavistic foundation of what is considered 'exploration' in an RPG.

I don't think a type of 'resting system' is necessary but it is one example that plumbs those depths; if you are looking for an easy example of how resource management ties into exploration and role-playing on a mechanical level then look no further than Wizardry 1: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord.

This is a very basic RPG concept and any system, be it a rest system or any other, needs to have immediacy and it needs to be either scarce, or difficult/rewarding to achieve.

In Wiz1 it was very rewarding to make your way back to town and the game's inn in order to rest up and refuel in order to head back into the dungeon depths. The further you explored the harder it was to make it back to town and the game managed to imprint real psychological manipulation, the most fight-or-flight responsiveness, thus making player choice something not only real but also tangible:

Will you risk further exploration and possible party annihilation? Will you risk attempting to disarm and open this trapped chest and risk party death or injury?

Will this amount of spells be enough to get you back to town?

Your party has been poisoned, and if each step taken drains 1 hit point and you have only enough potions to cure half your party does that mean you can make it back to town if you cure characters X, Y and Z, or if you cure characters A, B and C instead?

All such basic impetus but effective nonetheless. I don't have any answers as to how that same kind of psychological manipulation can be achieved with a rest-anywhere system specifically because a rest-anywhere system, by definition, requires a more complex attribution of systems interplay and is thus harder to 'balance'.

I do believe, however, that a rest-anywhere system fosters The Path Of Least Resistance, and that is the path where design flows not from the role-playing derived by the game's game play, its classes and characters and resources, but instead the path where design flows from a vague concept of availability instead of limitation.

It is harder, much harder, to 'balance' the lack of a resource than to do the opposite.

 

[fantadomat]

It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always rest. It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always reload. It doesn't matter if I full wipe in Iron Man mode, I can always start a New Game. If the very possibility of starting over removes all the tension, then you're not gonna have any tension, anywhere ever, because every game gives you options to start over.

Except the game of life,oh how much i dream of the F5 key.

 

[Lacrymas]

It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always reload.

Except you can't. Unless you are willing to reload to the start of the dungeon. Trust me, it works much, much more intensely when you know you are going to lose a whole stretch of progress because you couldn't manage your resources well. I thought this was the entire point of us wanting resource management and limited resting systems.

People who are opposed to such tension or think it doesn't exist clearly haven't played a game with truly restricted resources or any danger of losing progress.

 

[Alienman]

Is this some covert attempt at underestimating or denying the effects of psychology? Tension is always a psychological response, it's not ...something else. The added benefit of difficulty through resource management is tension. Remove that tension and it's all for naught, just remove the resting entirely.

It is a game with a quick load key....How do you get tension from playing such a game? More like annoyance that you have to replay something or exhilaration that you have met your match.

Yeah, but do you remember PoE1 load times though? If not for easy camping, there would be a psychological tension.

If anything, PoE1's load times did a better job than the resting mechanic.

True balance achieved right there.

 

[fantadomat]

It doesn't matter if things go bad, I can always reload.

Except you can't. Unless you are willing to reload to the start of the dungeon. Trust me, it works much, much more intensely when you know you are going to lose a whole stretch of progress because you couldn't manage your resources well. I thought this was the entire point of us wanting resource management and limited resting systems.

What people who are opposed to such tension or think it doesn't exist clearly haven't played a game with truly restricted resources or any danger of losing progress.

I know what you mean mate,i have played Thief trilogy on hardest with no saves,it is a fun ride. I don't like resource management in rpgs,it is not minecraft or some survival trash game. I don't play rpgs so i could constantly manage if my party eats,sleeps and shits regularly. I can make my game hard if i want without some arbitrary system telling me how cans of beans i can carry with me next to the 85 swords.If they make it so it cost 100/200 gold and i can have as many as i like is a different thing. Don't see your point about the resting.