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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Azarkon

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The fact that it's possible to play through the game twice and spend over 350 hours with it and not notice Eder's "racism", and nevertheless he will have a quote-unqote "racist" character trait, just stinks suspiciously.

Make a racist villain -> rage.
Make a sympathetic guy casually racist -> rage.
Make nobody racist at all with all races living happily together in harmony -> rage.

Can't win with you guys.

We need to keep a bit of balance here.

Lovecraft is called a racist. This is a poem he wrote:

On The Creation of Niggers

When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Jove's fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a Nigger.


Eder is called a racist. But most people can't even find the line where he expressed racism.

I think this is a problem with the way the character is portrayed. It's not a problem to have racists, even sympathetic racists, in a game. It is a problem, however, when you design a character to be a racist and people can't even recognize it.

Then again, didn't Fenstermaker write Eder? I wonder whether this was his plan or a decision made after he was gone.
 

axedice

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Do we esteem niggers (either sand or savanna version) in our current reality? Why the fuck should a civilized Aedyrian/Dyrwoodian not discriminate against a monkey? It is like this vegetarian thing where idiots claim that animals have rights or whatever..

:edgy:


Seriously though, I too find it odd for an Obsidian employee to define Eder of all companions as rayciss. He does have some dialogue that could be considered ignorant hillbilly rant but we never see him actually dismissing orlans as sub-kith. Might be that obsidian has been feeding on the milk of social justice from femnazi teats as of late
 

axedice

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This is not a black or white thing (pun intended), there are gray areas. The bar is definitely lower than genocide but higher than simple puns from some farm boy whose only worldly experience is a crusade.
 

Luckmann

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Do we esteem niggers (either sand or savanna version) in our current reality? Why the fuck should a civilized Aedyrian/Dyrwoodian not discriminate against a monkey? It is like this vegetarian thing where idiots claim that animals have rights or whatever..

:edgy:


Seriously though, I too find it odd for an Obsidian employee to define Eder of all companions as rayciss. He does have some dialogue that could be considered ignorant hillbilly rant but we never see him actually dismissing orlans as sub-kith. Might be that obsidian has been feeding on the milk of social justice from femnazi teats as of late
I mean, ignoring the edge - which I agree with, by the way - I agree. It's just extremely odd that Edér somehow passes for "racist" enough to be tagged with it. My absolutely favourite character in PoE was Durance (up until the end of the game when everything falls apart in the shittiest conversation known to man), but I would never argue that the "racist" tag would be inappropriate for him.

Edér isn't a racist, though. Slightly prejudiced? Maybe. But he doesn't appear to fit any reasonable definition of racism, whether we take "racist" to mean malicious ranking of biological/spiritual superiority or even just the recognition of scientific categorization of separate breeds of (relatively) cognizant creatures. He never espouses anything that can be considered racial hatred or racial supremacy, and he readily accepts all kinds of non-humans when faced with them, treating them like individuals even as he recognizes what they are.

Is there mere recognition of biodiversity "racism", now? There's a grand total of two dialogues that I can think of where Edér makes on-beat jokes or arguably prejudiced comments, one with Hiravias and one is the joke about the dwarf in the tree, which I always read as a sardonic, mournful attempt at a joke in the context of how sad and disillusioned the whole thing makes Edér. It could've just as well have been a comment on how he's wondering if he could take the shoes from one of the dead, because those are some nice shoes.

Edér is one of the most popular characters because he's not some kind of pigeon-holed snowflake, but a fucking normal fucking human being with actual character not based around a couple of easily pegged tropes. The entire tagging system is a nightmare in that regard, because it does exactly the thing you should try to avoid doing when it comes to designing complex characters. If they tag Edér as racist, you just know that they're going to work that into half of his conversations somehow, culminating in some moral lesson about how foolish it is, or in some "ironic" twists in which he is the butt of race-based jokes. "How does that feel, you white cis shitlord?"
 

Fry

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Unexistent
Hi Feargus, I'm really curious about what stage the game is at the moment, content wise. Because if most of that backer money is all gravy for that epic roast of RPG glory, then color me giddy. Also wondering if production on future expansions starts during the main game's production, as in whether the crowdfunding also covers expansion content at least to some significant degree.

@Unexistent - We are in production and are almost done with the first major chunk of the game. As for DLC, we are looking at options on starting before the game is launched, but that is going to be dependent on the people we have available. We need the full Deadfire team through close to launch, so it would need to be other people - but people that are familiar with the game and the vision. That's the challenge. As we know more, we'll share that with everyone.
 

AwesomeButton

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They should put in romances between the NPCs but none with you. You'd be there, all alone in the captain's cabin of the Majestic, while everybody else is banging away belowdecks. The butthurt would be epic...
And a voyeur scripted interaction where the PC faps to party members having sex. To "rub in" the message, in a way.

Make a racist villain -> rage.
Make a sympathetic guy casually racist -> rage.
Make nobody racist at all with all races living happily together in harmony -> rage.
Can't win with you guys.
I'm not raging about Eder's "racism" because I didn't notice such a trait, rather I'm worried that the writers might go out of their way to signal it this time around, when NPC relationships are officially a thing, and try to fix something that was not broken. I like Eder as a character exactly the way he is now.

The second approach is actually nice and the one that makes more sense in a 16th century-inspired setting. It's just that many people wouldn't use the word "racist" to describe Eder when thinking about his primary personality traits.
Also, orlans commonly face discrimination in the Dyrwood (and they aren't exactly estimeed in Glanfathan either, from what we've seen in Twin Elms), so it's not like he is any worse than pretty much all of his countrymen.
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I don't think the 16th century knew racism. Identification was still based more on feudal relationships and religion, and the concept of race and species as way we know it today is more influenced by late 19th century thought (post Darwin's "On the Origin of Species"). Just more reason for me to expect an anachronistic portrayal of "racism" in Deadfire.

EDIT:
Of course, we can't generalize about all of 16th c. Europe. There was widespread prejudice against jews for example, but was this rooted in "race" or religion? Also, I remember this book I found but never read, while I was researching for a EU4 mod: https://www.amazon.com/dp/080203689...UTF8&colid=3J97TPTRWF3QQ&coliid=I5N3HXA2W100S
 
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fobia

Guest
There is so much mere assumption here... White cis shitlord? Luckmann calm down!

I think that a lot of people confuse the term racism with advocating hatecrime or being a racial theorist.

Racism just means having prejudice against people of different (ethnical) background. That can be positive as well, as let's say in the case of the "noble barbarian" who lives in harmony with nature and whatnot. Basically Indians or germanic tribes in literature, who got exploited by whatever evil empire.

Eder's racism is just that. Kind of an everyday thing, basically everybody does/has it. It's not malicious intent.

It's still racism.

It's just not that kind of racism most people think about, because it's not the stuff for TV news or big headliners.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Do we know which companion will be written by which writer?

I assume Aloth to be written by Carrie Patel again.

Yep.

Did Sawyer want to keep writing? If so, Pallegina.

Confirmed.

I really hope Eric Fenstermakes it back in time to write Edér again.

Definite maybe on that.

Olivia Veras
wrote Kana Rua, which makes me fairly certain she'll write his sister, Maia Rua, as well.


Fair assumption.

This leaves Paul Kirsch and Megan Starks with at least one of Serafen, Xoti, or Prince Aruihi(?) each.


Likely.

My main hopes are that Fenstermaker gets Edér and Olivia Veras gets Maia Rua. The former for obvious reasons, the latter because she did a pretty good job on Kana, and because the Rauatai Aumaua are far too interesting to risk getting put in the hands of Starks...

Personally I don't feel particularly strongly about this, except I would really like Eric to write Edér. He did a stellar job on him in P1 and it would be a hard act to follow by someone else.
 

Iznaliu

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Corrected for truth:
Do we esteem crackers (either tundra or forest version) in our current reality? Why the fuck should a civilized Valian not discriminate against a naked mole rat? It is like this vegetarian thing where idiots claim that animals have rights or whatever..
 

Luckmann

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On an unrelated note, I think it's complete BS that Edér, Aloth and Pallegina are in the game, but not Durance. Hiravias had other things going for him, Grieving Mother is literally just a midwife, and Sagani had a family to go home to. But Durance is a solid-ass character that would have had a personal interest in the Eothas affair, and Edér doubly so. But Pallegina? She's a Paladin of the Frermàs mes Canc Suolias, she should have other obligations, and Aloth is.. what? He was just hanging out at Caed Nua?

Durance would've been a far more appropriate character than either of them, and so would Kana Rua (who I always hated, I can't even explain why, I think it's the voice). Frankly, I would've preferred even Zahua or Maneha, one of which is an aumaua and the other is an adventurer, so both of them would fit right in, even though I'm not a huge fan of either.

And yes, I realize that Durance might've thrown himself on the pyre, if you didn't finish the nonsense part of his quest, but given that he's a Priest of Magran, I think it would've been an interesting twist to reveal that he didn't actually die, and that his staff didn't actually burn, even though Magran does not speak to him - and similar arguments could be raised with Aloth, who you can actually end up casting out (if I remember correctly, you can even kill him..?).

Also, I realize that Durance was written by Avellone, who isn't involved, but Edér was written by Fenstermaker, who also isn't involved, so while there'd be issues doing them justice, it's not that strong of an argument. If you're ghostwriting one character, you might as well ghostwrite two.

Make a racist villain -> rage.
Make a sympathetic guy casually racist -> rage.
Make nobody racist at all with all races living happily together in harmony -> rage.

Can't win with you guys.
How about making everyone believably racist without focusing on it or obsessively pegging a villain as racist? Making a sympathetic guy "casually racist" isn't the issue here, it's that he wasn't racist at all, and now it's being called out as having racism as a defining character trait. I think everyone was perfectly fine with Edér being a believable, full character. That's exactly the kind of writing "us guys" want.

"You guys", though, can't help but to detect "racism" in everything, and inject moral stories about it everywhere you go, apparently. Having any kind of focus on this in a game and world like Pillars of Eternity is ridiculous.

Edit: I think that Pallegina had more "raicist" remarks about the north than Edér had about anyone non-human. Hell, Hiravias came off a hell of a lot more "raicist" - towards humans/non-glanfathans - than any other companion I can think of. /Edit

There is so much mere assumption here... White cis shitlord? Luckmann calm down!
You missed the point, that this is somehow a defining trait of Edér's, that will likely be worked in in an awful and awkward story on how you shouldn't be prejudiced, and how Edér is representative of the tumblrite imagery of the white cis shitlord that needs to be taught a moral lesson by being ridiculed in one way or another, being put into the position of "target" for the purpose of "irony". I'm not saying that it's going to be this way, I'm saying that that fear is the context of my statement, which flew over your head in your attempt to quickly feebly defend this galloping retardation.

I think that a lot of people confuse the term racism with advocating hatecrime or being a racial theorist.

Racism just means having prejudice against people of different (ethnical) background. That can be positive as well, as let's say in the case of the "noble barbarian" who lives in harmony with nature and whatnot. Basically Indians or germanic tribes in literature, who got exploited by whatever evil empire.

Eder's racism is just that. Kind of an everyday thing, basically everybody does/has it. It's not malicious intent.

It's still racism.

It's just not that kind of racism most people think about, because it's not the stuff for TV news or big headliners.
By this logic, everyone, everywhere, forever, should have the racist tag, in practically every setting, real or imagined. This is a perfect example of how cultural marxists have abused the term to be unrecognizable and unusable as anything other than a baseless and largely unfounded pejorative. It's funny how the very same marxists that espouse this utter nonsense are always the same ones that are so very quick to redefine the same concept of racism as constituting "prejudice + power" when faced with the issue of racial prejudices and discrimination for the purpose of marginalizing Europeans.

There's exactly two viable factual definitions of racism that can be consistently applied. One is the scientific usage for the purpose of dividing evolutionary subgroups, commonly referred in a contemporary scientific context as population sub-groups or sub-species, and sometimes also referred to as racialism. The other is the common-tongue definition of the idea of malicious practices of discrimination based on racial categorization, whether personal or societal, whether real or imagined. Everything else is just wily wishy-washy fucking nonsense that can be bent and re-interpreted to fit the flavour of the day in order to target whomever the fuck anyone wants.

And Edér fits neither of those, because he never expresses any actual disdain. Want to call him prejudiced? Want to call him ill-versed in worldly affairs, ethnocentric or casually ignorant? Fine. Want to call him racist? Fuck the right off.
 
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Luckmann

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Aloth is.. what? He was just hanging out at Caed Nua?

Maybe he thinks the activities of a giant walking god are Leaden Key business.
Fair enough point, I suppose, but I still think it's a bit far-fetched. In one out of three endings, he ends up as the head of the Leaden Key, and in one, he sets out to dismantle them. I guess that from the "head of the leaden key" perspective, it makes sense, but if he's just tagging along to see if the Leaden Key may show their face so he can punch them, that's pretty weak, I think. I still think Durance should've been in, though. Going to miss him calling me a whore.

But on the other hand, this way, I won't be able to bitch about how he's perfectly OK with me even if I'm a Priest of Eothas or Magran because the reactivity is shit. But Edér is still in, so I guess there's no way to win this one. I'll never forgive Obsidian for that one.
 

Luckmann

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On an unrelated note, I think it's complete BS that Edér, Aloth and Pallegina are in the game, but not Durance.

Durance died in my ending though.
Like I said, though, it's entirely possible that Aloth dies, too. Nevermind that if Durance "dies", all we know is that he throws himself onto the pyre. We don't know that he dies from it. It's Durance. He's hardcore, and Magran might not be done with him.

Or at least that's the pitch I'd give, if the CNPC:s weren't already settled, and if Obsidian wasn't a bundle of sticks.
 

TT1

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Do we know which companion will be written by which writer?

I assume Aloth to be written by Carrie Patel again.
Did Sawyer want to keep writing? If so, Pallegina.
I really hope Eric Fenstermakes it back in time to write Edér again.
Olivia Veras wrote Kana Rua, which makes me fairly certain she'll write his sister, Maia Rua, as well.
This leaves Paul Kirsch and Megan Starks with at least one of Serafen, Xoti, or Prince Aruihi(?) each.

There are still companions to be announced, right? I rememeber Infinitron post that were nine in total.
 

Iznaliu

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And Edér fits neither of those, because he never expresses any actual disdain. Want to call him prejudiced? Want to call him ill-versed in worldly affairs, ethnocentric or casually ignorant? Fine. Want to call him racist?

Maybe he got attacked by an orlan supremacist group in between the two games.
 

TT1

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Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
What if the Prince Aruihi can shapeshift or control that giant octopus from the main image? I dont think that creature is attacking the ship.
 
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Ghostwriting Eder vs. Durance:
It's not that simple.
First, it is possible that Fenstermaker will return. Second, if not, I agree that he did a very good job on Eader, but I imagine the writing is not that difficult to replicate by someone else. After all, Eder is a pretty normal guy without any major quirks or idiosyncrasies in the way he talks, behaves etc.

Now Durance, goddamn Durance is on a completely different level. He's 100% pure and distilled Avellone baby, a real tour de force of a character. I was genuinely amazed how good the writing on Durance was, a testimony to why Avellone is still the best writer in the entire industry. Trust me you don't want to get neither Sawyer nor Obsidians SJW brigade get their hands on Durance. It...it wouldn't end well.
 

AwesomeButton

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It's not that simple. I agree Fenstermaker did a very good job on him, but I imagine the writing is not that difficult to replicate by someone else. After all, Eder is a pretty normal guy without any major quirks or idiosyncrasies in the way he talks, behaves etc.
I doubt it's that simple. To know how Eder would react, or if he would react, in a given situation, or to a given line, especially with those NPC interactions they have going on... The original writer would have to pass on a thick file of background on that character to the new writer, and my guess is that it would be pretty hard to preserve the original character after that change.

BTW why would people continue to want to believe Durance was "written" by Avellone after Avellone himself denied this multiple times?
 

kris

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Racism just means having prejudice against people of different (ethnical) background. That can be positive as well, as let's say in the case of the "noble barbarian" who lives in harmony with nature and whatnot. Basically Indians or germanic tribes in literature, who got exploited by whatever evil empire.

Racsim is not the same as prejudice.
 

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