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Development Info Pillars of Eternity Kickstarter Update #79: Graphics and Rendering (and E3)

Dr Schultz

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Dr Schultz said:
rhythmic purpose


lol


What's so funny about that? The are entire genres out there where combats, boss battles aside, are supposed to be primarely a rhythmic element (Metroidvanias, Dungeon Master clones, Zelda-like games, platform games, action-puzzles and so forth). According to your nonsensical "if something is shit, is shit no matter what" they are all flawed games because they all have a flawed combat system...


Dr Schultz said:
If you add a complex combat system to Zelda


Who said anything about "complex"? Combat doesn't need to be complex to be good. Hell, PS:T's combat can be pretty fucking complex and it sucks.


Change "complex" with "good" and the result is the same. Darksiders has better combat than Zelda, but it's not remotely as good as a game. Why? Because Zelda is a more coherent game experience.


Dr Schultz said:
The greatest game is not the game with all its part equally well crafted. It's the game where all the game mechanics cooperate to a clear design purpose.


This is a meaningless and nonsensical sentence, but the part of it that's true - that is, that the great game is the game where all components work together for the same purpose - isnottrue of PS:T and Arcanum. Their respective combat mechanics and character system mechanics do not work together with the rest of the systems to much interesting end. Except of course some cleverly designed stat checks and the like.


Actually, any parts of PS:T ruleset that doesn't descend from D&D is a clever addition to the game. So, if you are implying that AD&D is the worst possible ruleset for Torment, you aren't saying anything new. AD&D is the worst possible ruleset for Planescape in general. What I can't see is how this can be Black's Isle's (or more specifically Avellone's) fault.
 
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Shadenuat

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That's bullshit. Of course PS:T and Arcanum could have played better. Of course their systems could be more than complete shit.
Why is PST system a complete shit?

PST is a storytelling based game. There are just about two things you have to work on when doing game like that:
1) Adding prerequisites for dialogue lines and
2) Working with variables ("Annah loves u = 0', "U lied times = 5').
Sure, AD&D is a combat focused system, but there's nothing wrong with using it's stats for dialogue either. It has 6 stats from 8 to 25, that represent character's performance well, and are easy to use in creating character builds and roles. And because it's easy to control variables with small number range like that you can avoid "choose your adventure" feel with enough writing, something that is harder to do if you also have ~20 skills that range from 1 to 100 like AoD used to have.

To make character concepts a bit more deep Numenera uses those "tides" now (relatively simple color-graded morale system), while PST used aligments. And AD&D is a combat-ready licenced system, so if you want to add some distractions on the way, like kicking rats, you're ready to go.

I disagree. Here is a review with Dark Souls I agree with:
Uh, giving a link to a review without time point is too much. Why do you disagree?
DS is generally about:
- Managing resources (estus, stamina, poise, souls);
- Engaging in risky combat situations, sometimes fighting multiple enemies, sometimes one very strong enemy;
- Learning patterns of enemy attacks.

Magic shits on all three - the more magic you have the less managing of resources you have to do; you don't need to engage anything if you have enough magic missiles because enemies don't aggro on you badly; and you don't need to learn bosses patterns except, hehe, Bed of Chaos, if you use magic.

Also, magic in Arcanum is downright terrible.
Why? Because it's overpowered? What's terrible about large amount of schools and spells, what's terrible about it's utilitarian capability, what's terrible about it allowing multiple builds and roles?

Agreed, however this doesn't apply to Arcanum. Its system was complex and fun to toy around with without context, but ultimately pretty shit in context, and would have been regardless of what context.
It totaly does. Just fixing Arcanum character system is not an impossible task (no talking about real time though, I don't know why it exists).

The biggest problem there is Speed attribute, which, when manipulated, turns just dangerous characters (melee, backstabers, spellslingers) into destroyers. Anyone can come up with a few clever decisions at toning down most unbalanced parts of it. But it won't matter. Because game still has like, 2 interesting combat encounters (Lukan and Guns-Master), shitty dungeons and AI that can't use abilities you gave it. So you'll end up with a game with not retarded combat (like one of modders did) where you will fight 500 rats, 50 ore golems, 200 lantern arrayas again.

PST actually has the same problem, but with locations. It is a fairly combat-light game that, for some reason, has Baator_01, Curst Prison and final run in Fortress of Regrets. Encounters there are poor even by most combat-driven AD&D standards I think. What DM would throw at you 20 abishai/50 guards/20 respawnable shadows? That just doesn't make sense.
 
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Dr Schultz

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PST actually has the same problem, but with locations. It is a fairly combat-light game that, for some reason, has Baator_01, Curst Prison and final run in Fortress of Regrets. Encounters there are poor even by most combat-driven AD&D standards I think. What DM would throw at you 20 abishai/50 guards/20 respawnable shadows? That just doesn't make sense.


Agreed. The biggest design fault in PS:T is content related, not system related. Starting from Baator the quality of the encounter design literally collapse.


Lol no. It's technologists who rely on trash in Arcanum the most.


Agreed again. Arcanum has a GURPS-like ruleset, very similar to Shadowrun. This is an ideal starting point from a game that is all about "play as you want and with the character you want". Of course the execution is far from perfect, but it's not that complicated to fix the system.
 

Grunker

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Arcanum has a GURPS-like ruleset

rachel-huh-face.gif


GURPS [...] similar to Shadowrun

tumblr_m5vs239rEZ1ql5yr7o1_400.gif
 

Dr Schultz

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Arcanum has a GURPS-like ruleset

rachel-huh-face.gif

You know, 100% skill based, with a point-buy-system, and a single resource used to buy everything? You should have heard about GURPS. It's famous. When It came out it influenced a shitload of later systems. Of course, you have to know something about tabletob RPGs history to understand what I'm talking about :asd:...
 
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Grunker

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You should have heard about GURPS.

You could say that...

Look, we disagree on a very fundamental level here, I'm not even sure where to start. We can't even agree on the flaws in some universally accepted flawed games. That alone leaves us very far from the discussion's core (you know, whether it is hurtful to the greats that they have these great flaws). Is it really fruitful to start discussing P&P system similarities? Are we going to get anywhere doing that?
 
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Shadenuat

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I'm trying to imagine Grunker's face a moment ago, glorious facepalm. Must had steam come out of his ears.

Allow me to doubt it, if you don't see how GURPS, Shadowrun and Arcanum have a very similar ruleset framework (derived form the first one).
Just look up his signature.
 

Grunker

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edit: ninja'd by Shadenuat - not steam, no, might have been a wee bit flustered though

You should have heard about GURPS.

You could say that...

Allow me to dubts about it

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8172

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/grunker-is-a-gigantic-geek-gurps-the-witcher.89093/

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/grunker-gurps.77847/

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/best-pnp-rpgs.88985/#post-3047988

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...m-for-a-medieval-campaign.87150/#post-2917067

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/sup-gazebo.86768/#post-2889952

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=122204

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=113167

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/multiclassing-systems.72062/#post-2087925

etc etc

oh, and: http://i.imgur.com/QFXtnFp.png

Maybe I just disagree with you that simply because systems are horizontal and skill-based they are similar to each other? There are two kinds of systems, basically: vertical and horizontal. Saying that all vertical systems are alike is... correct in a sense I guess, but pretty meaningless. Like saying all video games are alike, 'cause they're all video games.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway, wanna keep flinging insults at each other (it is fairly entertaining) or get back on track?:

Grunker said:
Look, we disagree on a very fundamental level here, I'm not even sure where to start. We can't even agree on the flaws in some universally accepted flawed games. That alone leaves us very far from the discussion's core (you know, whether it is hurtful to the greats that they have these great flaws). Is it really fruitful to start discussing P&P system similarities? Are we going to get anywhere doing that?

Point being: I think the core of our discussion, at one point, was how the flaws of Arcanum and PS:T hinder them. Right now, we have two points of disagreeance:

1) Shadenuat claims, if I understand correctly, that the games aren't as flawed as I do. So that's one debate.

2) You believe that the games are actually just as flawed or nearly as flawed as I do, but you don't think these flaws are actually a problem. Correct?
 
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Dr Schultz

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Messages
492
You should have heard about GURPS.

You could say that...

Look, we disagree on a very fundamental level here, I'm not even sure where to start. We can't even agree on the flaws in some universally accepted flawed games. That alone leaves us very far from the discussion's core (you know, whether it is hurtful to the greats that they have these great flaws). Is it really fruitful to start discussing P&P system similarities? Are we going to get anywhere doing that?

Probably not, but I would like to know your thoughts about these 3 rulesets. Are both Arcanun and Shadowrun RPGs with a class-free, skill-focused system, a point-buy mechanic and single currency to buy everything, exactly like GURPS and many other Tabletop RPGs inspired by GURPS, or they are not :)?
 

Grunker

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Yes, they are horizontal systems. What's your point? Chairs are also chairs, but no one would say that the chair I'm sitting in right now and the chair behind me at my dinner table are alike.

GURPS, Shadowrun and Arcanum are very unlike each other in the assets they make available, the contents of their systems, the aims of the systems (well, Arcanum tries for something like GURPS but fails utterly) and in the mathematical components. Also, the first thing Sean Punch of GURPS fame would call Arcanum is probably not a system. In the sense that a quote-unquote "system" must have all assets tied to the same core and same methodology, like the metric system all springs from the same basic unit or whatever. Of course that's sort of a narrow definition, but the point is that in everything but the horizontal similarity, these systems are very unlike each other.

Just a couple of easy examples: GURPS is universal. None of the other two systems are. GURPS is generic. None of the other systems are. GURPS is completely open. The others are to an extent, in theory, but in practice they have built-in pseudo-careers.

EDIT: Woops, wrote "vertical", meant "horizontal". All fixed nao :)
 
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Shadenuat

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1) Shadenuat claims, if I understand correctly, that the games aren't as flawed as I do. So that's one debate.
I believe that poor production and content hinder Arcanum more than problems in it's mechanics. For PST I think it's flaws lie in breaking of pacing starting with your arrival at Curst Prison and bad combat encounters. I just don't place as much blame on faults in their mechanics as in content. "Harm is op", yadda yadda. Well try getting through same trash mobs with not-overpowered Harm and tell if it will feel better.

You're right in a sense that I'm not bothered with flaws in these games as most people probably are though. PST combat never was an issue for me when there was a reasonable amount of it (not like Curst). I'm probably easily entertained by flashy effects and cool character models :M
 
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Grunker

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1) Shadenuat claims, if I understand correctly, that the games aren't as flawed as I do. So that's one debate.
I believe that poor production and content hinder Arcanum more than problems in it's mechanics. For PST I think it's flaws lie in breaking of pacing starting with your arrival at Curst Prison and bad combat encounters. I just don't place as much blame on faults in their mechanics as in content. "Harm is op", yadda yadda. Well try getting through same trash mobs with not-overpowered Harm and tell if it will feel better.

I played Arcanum without Harm because I was warned beforehand (played Arcanum just a couple of years ago). I didn't find its combat any more compelling. In fact, 1/4 through the game, I started to wish that I'd gone with Harm, because at least then the combat would be over in a flash every time.
 

Dr Schultz

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Yes, they are horizontal systems. What's your point? Chairs are also chairs, but no one would say that the chair I'm sitting in right now and the chair behind me at my dinner table are alike.

GURPS, Shadowrun and Arcanum are very unlike each other in the assets they make available, the contents of their systems, the aims of the systems (well, Arcanum tries for something like GURPS but fails utterly) and in the mathematical components. Also, the first thing Sean Punch of GURPS fame would call Arcanum is probably not a system. In the sense that a quote-unquote "system" must have all assets tied to the same core and same methodology, like the metric system all springs from the same basic unit or whatever. Of course that's sort of a narrow definition, but the point is that in everything but the horizontal similarity, these systems are very unlike each other.

Just a couple of easy examples: GURPS is universal. None of the other two systems are. GURPS is generic. None of the other systems are. GURPS is completely open. The others are to an extent, in theory, but in practice they have built-in pseudo-careers.

EDIT: Woops, wrote "vertical", meant "horizontal". All fixed nao :)

Ok, I was stopping to read after "vertical" :).

So, leaving alone the "aims of the systems" part (honestly, I don't really know what your are talking about, you can adapt the Shadowrun setting to GURPS with almost no effort and whitout losing anything in the transiction) and the "mathematical components" part (which, OF COURSE, are different), according to you, the biggest difference between these 3 systems is the generic nature of GURPS? Of course it is! But given this inherent difference, do you really think that these RPGs doesn't share the same basic structure in their ruleset? If you do, try to build a character in all 3 games one after another :asd:.
 

Grunker

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according to you, the biggest difference between these 3 systems is the generic nature of GURPS?

"according to you, the biggest difference between these 3 systems (besides being completely different in every way EXCEPT their verticality and point-buy systems)"

lol, fucking lol

And no, even if I accepted your strawman, it's not just the generic nature. The other two systems aren't even open in practice. Shadowrun sort of enforces careers, and Arcanum has soft limits between the different assets in the system.

Sorry bro, but this discussion just isn't interesting to me. I think it's completely meaningless to call these systems similar in the same way that calling a flat-screen and CRT monitor similar is missing the point. We can go back to debating the flaws of Arcanum or PS:T, but discussing whether Shadowrun and GURPS are similar isn't particularly enticing to me.
 

Shadenuat

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I played Arcanum without Harm because I was warned beforehand (played Arcanum just a couple of years ago). I didn't find its combat any more compelling. In fact, 1/4 through the game, I started to wish that I'd gone with Harm, because at least then the combat would be over in a flash every time.
Well, exactly. Even if you make combat more difficult or every ability and gadget matter, you still will end up using them on ~100 nameless mobs in sewers. For a "full fledged r pe gee" that Arcanum is (or tries to be, whichever you prefer), it has levels of a crappy roguelike.
Arcanum actually has a lot more stuff to do in combat than, say, Fallout. It has more weapons, an interesting stamina and spell support system, more effects, grenades, traps, gadgets, you even can give your followers simple commands. It almost screams for interesting encounters and party vs. party combat, gadgeteers vs. multiple specialized mages, and so on.
I would probably enjoy encounters with better AI even if it was an unbalanced mess.

But most of encounters are about going through zombies, or rats, or bears, or monkeys...

Just think of how undeveloped encounter design in this game is if the whole school of magic, Meta, that is about protecting you from magic, doesn't serve any purpose because you don't fight mages or their AI is so bad that they don't use their spells.

Also, for a game where you can play debutante-chick with 20 Beauty, the 50/50 (I'm being generous here, it's probably 40/60) social&roleplay/combat content split is p. bad to begin with.
 

Dr Schultz

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according to you, the biggest difference between these 3 systems is the generic nature of GURPS?

"according to you, the biggest difference between these 3 systems (besides being completely different in every way EXCEPT their verticality and point-buy systems)"

lol, fucking lol

And no, even if I accepted your strawman, it's not just the generic nature. The other two systems aren't even open in practice. Shadowrun sort of enforces careers, and Arcanum has soft limits between the different assets in the system.

Sorry bro, but this discussion just isn't interesting to me. I think it's completely meaningless to call these systems similar in the same way that calling a flat-screen and CRT monitor similar is missing the point. We can go back to debating the flaws of Arcanum or PS:T, but discussing whether Shadowrun and GURPS are similar isn't particularly enticing to me.

Agreed, it's completely useless :asd:.

LOL, Shadowrun enforces what? No, seriously, have you ever played a single adventure with Shadowrun :?? Don't take it personaly, Grunker, but I strongly suspect that everything you know about Shadowrun comes from wiki, or - even worse - from Shadowrun Returns...
 

Grunker

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I played Arcanum without Harm because I was warned beforehand (played Arcanum just a couple of years ago). I didn't find its combat any more compelling. In fact, 1/4 through the game, I started to wish that I'd gone with Harm, because at least then the combat would be over in a flash every time.
Well, exactly. Even if you make combat more difficult or every ability and gadget matter, you still will end up using them on ~100 nameless mobs in sewers.

You don't understand me. Even if the encounters were spitzenklasse, the system is still fairly boring, the combat feels iffy and awkward, and there isn't that much interesting to do while fighting. Not to mention aesthetics. Man they suck, hit effects and animations are some of the worst I've witnessed in RPGs.

Anyway, even if I agreed with you, that doesn't make the combat less shitty, so my point still stands. You just disagree with me on why it stands.

Dr Schultz said:
I strongly suspect that everything you know about Shadowrun came from wiki...

Your assumptions about my P&P experience is becoming real boring, real fast.
 

Shadenuat

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You don't understand me. Even if the encounters were spitzenklasse, the system is still fairly boring, the combat feels iffy and awkward, and there isn't that much interesting to do while fighting. Not to mention aesthetics. Man they suck, hit effects and animations are some of the worst I've witnessed in RPGs.
I'm not a guy who falls into sleep because of brown colors and violins, and I actually find a lot of stuff in game looking very cool. But that's a subjective matter.
 

Grunker

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You don't understand me. Even if the encounters were spitzenklasse, the system is still fairly boring, the combat feels iffy and awkward, and there isn't that much interesting to do while fighting. Not to mention aesthetics. Man they suck, hit effects and animations are some of the worst I've witnessed in RPGs.
I'm not a guy who falls into sleep because of brown colors and violins, and I actually find a lot of stuff in game looking very cool. But that's a subjective matter.

The violins are about all I like. However, see the line I edited in about the substance of our debate :)

(and no, the kinaesthetics of Arcanum are not subjective, but it's besides the point anywho)
 

Dr Schultz

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Dr Schultz said:
I strongly suspect that everything you know about Shadowrun came from wiki...

Your assumptions about my P&P experience is becoming real boring, real fast.

Ok, I stop assuming right know. Explain the reasons behind a statement that, in the eye of a long time SR player, looks like a gynormous bullshit. I'm all ears...
 

Grunker

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Dr Schultz said:
I strongly suspect that everything you know about Shadowrun came from wiki...

Your assumptions about my P&P experience is becoming real boring, real fast.

Ok, I stop assuming right know. Explain the reasons behind a statement that, in the eye of a long time SR player, looks like a gynormous bullshit. I'm all ears...

In the games I've played, roughly all characters fall within the adept/magic-user/tech-savvy/gun-specialist roles, because these are explicitly supported by the system. Rather than complete open-ness, you get variations over these themes, or, at the most, hybrids. You even have the book state that there are 4 different "types" of magic-users.

Anyway, that's my last comment on the system-debate since:

Grunker said:
Sorry bro, but this discussion just isn't interesting to me. I think it's completely meaningless to call these systems similar in the same way that calling a flat-screen and CRT monitor similar is missing the point. We can go back to debating the flaws of Arcanum or PS:T, but discussing whether Shadowrun and GURPS are similar isn't particularly enticing to me.
 
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