Preview Pillars of Eternity Presentation at PAX South 2015

[ushas]

Might (MIG): A measure of how physically and magically strong a character is.

It would be much better if they made the high Might wizard use his mighty spells to open up passages, not physical strength...

Maybe it was me who is making wrong assumptions here but this just seemed logical to me, that Might in a fighter would present physical strength while applied to a wizard it would present how mighty his magic is...

Originally, when they came up with the muscle wizard concept, I have thought about that differently than you -- simply as a duality attribute system with a more direct and powerful connection between body <-> soul, compare to our world. Since an individual attribute has a realization in both the physical and mental characteristics. Each class is simply variously shifted on the scale for different tasks, because to use a character's potential fully, one have to undergo more complex training/education first.

We start the game with an adult character, who is already trained in a profession (==class). So you are right, he may think to choose the means of solving stuff by his way (whatever it is). However, in the PoE world I talk above, the powerful muscle wizard would be indeed literally muscular, and so he may simply decide to physically open the passage, when it's less costly then firing up from his daily limited list of spells in a grimoire. And consistently, a fighter doing physical exercises is not only powering his body, but his mind as well. He just happen to know more uses for his muscle part of the mightiness.

Spoiler

What about you, a dear muscle wizard in training? Being too lazy to go for your boxing classes? Don't worry. Just exercise some destructive spells from your grimoire thinking strongly about unleashing an armageddon all over the dummy, and enjoy muscles growing as a side effect without a move of your thumb!

You think you don't have a chance in a chess over those skinny and fat overly smart losers? On the contrary! Their pieces are going to explode on contact with your mighty intimidating wall of pawns. And if they still bitch about the rules or whatever? Just punch them. Easy.

Spoiler

You will probably still loose the game, when the smart ass casts indistinguishable duplication of himself, laughing, while you are punching the wrong image. So don't play a chess.

Spoiler

I wonder, how far this can go on.

Ok, it's basically fanfiction. But that's the point, we don't know enough to decide whether something is actually logical/consistent within the world of Eternal reincarnations...

 

[MicoSelva]

Any way to watch this on Android?

Try this? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tv.twitch.android.viewer&hl=en

This app will not let you watch archived streams. Arsene Lupin, download and install the (now unsupported) flash player apk and then use the "Internet" android browser (not Chrome) - Twitch should work then. It does for me anyway.

 

[hiver]

Anthonyyyyyy!


by the way, i have nothing against the wizard being also somehow "muscular" but at best you would use such a wizard as a sort of battle mage, worse in physical combat then a pure fighter, supplementing his lacking skills with magic and vice versa, being worse wizard then the pure wizard but supplementing that with some physical abilities.

Although i think its more of the case that a mighty wizard would have mighty spells, although less of them then the pure wizard, etc, etc.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Maybe he meant mental muscles? It would make sense if person who have bigger mental muscles could cast stronger spells.
While I was student I met a lot of people who could brute force exams with their mental muscles (intelligence) without learning anything - they would just create their own formulas to solve math problems and etc. If it work in reality, I don't see why it shouldn't work in fantasy setting.
I think muscle wizards is a big step forwards both from simulationist point of view and from being as inclusive as possible point of view.

 

[hiver]

Obviously the idea of changing what was just Strenght before, into a more general term as the "Might" is was not to just change the word.

Its says right there on the wiki its a measure of how magically strong someone is.

Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic.

- channeling powerful magic. spiritual strength. but also physical strength.

During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force.

Intimidating displays. - which would presumably mean displays of magical abilities too.

And acts of brute force.

So i guess it represents both.

Im guessing that choosing too much Might as a Wizard would prevent you from raising other attributes to appropriate levels. Although i haven't tried the beta myself.

 

[ushas]

So i guess it represents both.

Exactly. We just need to accept that the soul and the body meanings of the attribute are connected together. Similarly to the Might, the Constitution would represent both the physical and the mental health of the character in the same time, as well, etc... I would probably even guess it's more along the Josh's philosophy, when the meaning of the rules is unified across the board -- compare to the situation, when you would have to create different abstraction of an attribute for each class.

Im guessing that choosing too much Might as a Wizard would prevent you from raising other attributes to appropriate levels. Although i haven't tried the beta myself.

In the current beta BBv392, you have minimum of 3 points in each attribute and then 57 points you may redistribute where you want. Or when you start with everything at 10 (no penalties nor bonuses) you have 15 points at avail. You can rise one attribute to the maximum 18 (+ class and cultural bonuses). Which would in case of the Might mean +24% (+33% in case Aumana from Living Lands) of damage. So if you do something like that you have 7 points to rise something else (or more if you optimize).

Then, if you want a frontline wizard you probably pump constitution. For variouse glass cannons you may consider other possibilities, but that depends on still ongoing tuning for the final game...

 

[hiver]

Seems to me that a regular pure wizard build would need to be good at Might, Perception and Resolve.

So if you would go for Might, constitution and dexterity, you would end up with a bit different wizard, lacking in some wizardly stuff the pure build would have, but not really a fighter or a front line material. The pure fighter build or rogues and barbarians would always be better suited for that task. Unless you really want to create unorthodox builds and make the game harder for yourself.

My point being that such a "hybrid" build would not be the same as a fighter build.

- i mean, you can make a wizard with same attributes as a fighter or any barbarian has... but you wouldnt have their skill set, right?

So you would still use magic most of the time and could use weapons only in some basic form.

if i get all that correctly.

 

[Dorateen]

I just wanted to mention that in Wizardry 7, which had a specific Swimming skill, if one of the party members failed they would lose stamina and die.

I only bring this up because one of the PoE designers was running around badmouthing older role-playing games. And in light of the illustrated vignette here, it's amusing to see how much stronger the classics stand up in comparison.

 

[Semper]

I only bring this up because one of the PoE designers was running around badmouthing older role-playing games.

did i miss some drama?

 

[Dorateen]

I only bring this up because one of the PoE designers was running around badmouthing older role-playing games.

did i miss some drama?

I thought is was an old narrative by now, that Sawyer claimed cRPGs like Wizardry would not be considered role-playing games by today's "standards".

 

[Infinitron]

I only bring this up because one of the PoE designers was running around badmouthing older role-playing games.

did i miss some drama?

I thought is was an old narrative by now, that Sawyer claimed cRPGs like Wizardry would not be considered role-playing games by today's "standards".

He was talking about the first Wizardry specifically. His opinion of DW Bradley's games remains unknown. Perhaps somebody could ask him!

 

[ushas]

I just wanted to mention that in Wizardry 7, which had a specific Swimming skill, if one of the party members failed they would lose stamina and die.

Isn't there a ressurection spell in Wiz 7? (with some drawbacks)

Not having feelings to any specific implementation. But wouldn't it be kind of stupid for the rest of the party to safely swim through the passage, letting one of them drown without any try to help?...

Nevertheless, penalties for the failed check could be higher for that. According to the stream it's:
Minor Fatigue ~ -5 All defences, -10 Ranged/Melee accuracy, x0.9 maximum Endurance

 

[ushas]

My point being that such a "hybrid" build would not be the same as a fighter build.

- i mean, you can make a wizard with same attributes as a fighter or any barbarian has... but you wouldnt have their skill set, right?

So you would still use magic most of the time and could use weapons only in some basic form.

if i get all that correctly.

Right, you cannot take fighter/barbarian specific abilities (your wizard didn't undergo military training), as there is no multiclassing. But you can still invest in general and wizard specific talents as a weapon list focus / lowering casting time of buff spells / talents enhancing accuracy and defences etc. Others tried to build a gish character. I will wait for the next patch, as there will be changes, even in attributes.

Besides, if you want something same as a fighter, why not take the fighter? They have some sort of soul powers as well, it's easy imagine theirs abilities as spells if you need to...

 

[hiver]

Besides, if you want something same as a fighter, why not take the fighter?

Exactly. Thats what i am saying.

Plus, wearing any armor will have further negative effects on spell casting.

it's easy imagine theirs abilities as spells if you need to...

Im not sure what you mean by this.

 

[Johannes]

I think muscle wizards is a big step forwards both from simulationist point of view and from being as inclusive as possible point of view.

I don't see how (physical strength == magical strength) is any kind of good simulationism.

 

[mindx2]

I only bring this up because one of the PoE designers was running around badmouthing older role-playing games.

did i miss some drama?

I thought is was an old narrative by now, that Sawyer claimed cRPGs like Wizardry would not be considered role-playing games by today's "standards".

He was talking about the first Wizardry specifically. His opinion of DW Bradley's games remains unknown. Perhaps somebody could ask him!

Roguey?

 

[hiver]

I think muscle wizards is a big step forwards both from simulationist point of view and from being as inclusive as possible point of view.

I don't see how (physical strength == magical strength) is any kind of good simulationism.

But it isnt strength. Its might.

It is a more generic term. Its not used to describe just a physical strength.

 

[Johannes]

I think muscle wizards is a big step forwards both from simulationist point of view and from being as inclusive as possible point of view.

I don't see how (physical strength == magical strength) is any kind of good simulationism.

But it isnt strength. Its might.

It is a more generic term. Its not used to describe just a physical strength.

Yeah, whatever, sure. Why can't I make a character who's physically weak but magically mighty? Or vice versa.

 

[tuluse]

I don't see how (physical strength == magical strength) is any kind of good simulationism.

I don't see how which attribute makes spells more powerful* is related to simulationism at all considering magic is not real and the creators of the universe can make it work however they like.


*depending on how you define powerful there are other attributes that effect magic as well.

Edit:

Yeah, whatever, sure. Why can't I make a character who's physically weak but magically mighty? Or vice versa.

You can make a wizard who casts spells that affect a large area, last a very long time, and enemies have more trouble resisting who is physically weak.

 

[Johannes]

Edit:

Yeah, whatever, sure. Why can't I make a character who's physically weak but magically mighty? Or vice versa.

You can make a wizard who casts spells that affect a large area, last a very long time, and enemies have more trouble resisting who is physically weak.

Derp, that's irrelevant. I said I wanted MIGHTY spells.

 

[hiver]

Yeah, whatever, sure. Why can't I make a character who's physically weak but magically mighty? Or vice versa.

hmm... thats true. It seems you cant.

Thats why i wanted Anthony to clarify that but he didnt respond yet.

That seems to be very against Sawyer design...

It could only be possible if Might when applied to a wizard would affect only his spiritual energy and spells, not physical strength.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[ushas]

it's easy imagine theirs abilities as spells if you need to...

Im not sure what you mean by this.

If somebody is unhappy, that's not possible to make a wizard effective in combat the same way as a fighter, he may try to imagine in his head fighter's abilities to be spells as well. (soul powers)

 

[tuluse]

Derp, that's irrelevant. I said I wanted MIGHTY spells.

Well first, you'd have to define what mighty means.

 

[Johannes]

it's easy imagine theirs abilities as spells if you need to...

Im not sure what you mean by this.

If somebody is unhappy, that's not possible to make a wizard effective in combat the same way as a fighter, he may try to imagine in his head fighter's abilities to be spells as well. (soul powers)

Or they could imagine that the wizard works in the way they want it to!

Derp, that's irrelevant. I said I wanted MIGHTY spells.

Well first, you'd have to define what mighty means.

That's the problem. The game doesn't properly define the term. Is this physical strength which helps me cast spell for great damage? Or is it spiritual strength that lets me swing a weapon hard, and shoot powerfully with a gun? It's very vague and abstract, I'd need LS to intellect it open for me I suppose.