Game News Pillars of Eternity Released

[Athelas]

It seems that the Quest for Balance has necessitated all logic being thrown out of the window. The grease spell seems to work on floating enemies and blinding effects work on the shadow creatures.

You mean just like the game this is supposed to be a successor to - Baldur's Gate (without the SCS mod)?

 

[Space Satan]

So far the worst part of PoI is its apalling lack of companions. 8 companions is like...nothing. It's like another Wasteland 2 with fucking retarded system of party creation. Walking templates and mute mannequins. BG2 handles it best - no created companions. Each with their own story. Aloth, Durance, Eder, Grieving Mother, Hiravias, Kana Rua, Sagani and Pallegina is nothing compared to BG2's 16. Even with one or two personal quests and a few lines of story they are endlessly more appealing than player-created crap. bck then player could choose how to form thir party - evil, neutral and good partied had their share of interesting companions to choose from. Pillars of Eternity loses here completely.

 

[Gentle Player]

It seems that the Quest for Balance has necessitated all logic being thrown out of the window. The grease spell seems to work on floating enemies and blinding effects work on the shadow creatures.

You mean just like the game this is supposed to be a successor to - Baldur's Gate (without the SCS mod)?

I never used grease in IE but I seem to remember that web, which I used often, wouldn't affect floating monsters. Even if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter. Successor to a 17 year old game with the same feature or not, it's still neither logical nor intuitive to be able to knock over floating phantoms by throwing grease on the floor.

 

[Infinitron]

8 companions is like...Planescape: Torment and Mask of the Betrayer

 

[Space Satan]

Indeed, but I can't see PoI other than continuation of BG2 and thus got used to BG2 variety of companions. I hope existing characters will be nice written.
This, by the way, is a DLC that I would buy instantly - that adds new companions.

 

[almondblight]

The point is that you would never turn on the spot showing the enemy your back and then start moving.

But...that's exactly what you do in the IE games. Even doing so with your weak wizard who lacks weapons and armor.

But more important than being stupid from a realism perspective, it was stupid from a gameplay perspective. There wasn't much of a consequence to letting someone with a sword run up to your wizard. As long as they could take the blow, they could just walk away from the person. It also lead to stupid stuff like dancing your characters in and out of combat when they were dying, or running a character around in a circle while they other 5 filled the enemies with arrows. Good riddance.

I would prefer a mechanic where you have to make a check to overcome an enemie's check to disengage at all.

The mechanic already does a check against the attack (with an accuracy bonus given when the enemy tries to disengage) and there are abilities to deal with it (or increase the effect of it). I haven't played enough to get a great feel for it, but it at least seems a lot better than the silliness of the IE games.

 

[Decado]

Raedric's hold is buggy as fuck. CTD's when I enter certain areas, but if I go to another area then try again, sometimes it works. First bug I've encountered so far. Pretty irritating, though.

 

[hiver]

I'm sympathetic to complaints against it because it does encourage a very different organisation of space than IE games. In IE games you were working with spaces you can see, the environment, while that kind of space management is almost impossible in POE's engagement (and stealth / combat initiation). I do think POE system as it stands makes some interesting space management impossible, though I think "gangbang vs. tactical use of space" is an exaggeration, since POE has its own space management.

I do think some of the grumbling is overrated. I've disengaged from people when I've needed to on Hard and it hasn't been suicidal. It is sometimes suicidal, which is the point. If I built a character with talents for disengaging etc. I expect it will be even easier. Enemies too move out of your engagement sometimes, and not to their death. After all, in that particular aspect, it is similar to NWN2 / 3rd edition and its attacks of opportunity, which were a factor but never suicidal.

hiver, I haven't read what you've suggested about engagement elsewhere so you may have covered it, but you mean giving it to literally only the fighter class? I mean, if we were to give it to all melee oriented classes it wouldn't make much of a difference in how the game plays, and if really only the fighter had it it would make them pretty powerful, no? Similarly, would bandits, zombies, and other "melee basher" creatures be expected to have engagement, in which case again, it wouldn't work so much different from how it is now? Because in most cases, players choose to utilise engagement with their front-line characters, and enemies as well. If you have a weak mage 'engaging' you it's not that big a deal to disengage.

It is a suicidal move for the most of engagements, especially when it comes to the party members. Some enemies can survive one disengagement - that they almost never do because Ai is paralyzed by this extreme overblown version of engagement - but thats only because of HP bloat.

Gangbanging from one enemy to the next is what you will be doing for approximately 95% of time in combat.
Player dont choose anything - because it just happens automatically without any player input or control.

Yes, i would give the full engagement capabilities only to fighters. One Paladin/Barbarian type of build could have that as a talent - but only the basic version of it. - because it should be a fighter specialty.
Almost all creatures should have it removed.

Yes, that would make fighters much more valuable - which was one of the main design themes since the start.
All other classes have their own capabilities and so should fighters and this is perfect for them.

Out of other creatures and enemies in the game only those that would go through heavy military training - which this kind of engagement actually needs and is - should have it too, but only in basic form.
Bandits should not have it, unless they are some sort of army deserters. Zombies should not have it because zombies dont have brains, DUH.
Ordinary creatures and animals should not have it because such capabilities require long years of training, discipline and knowledge.

It does not make any sense whatsoever and it plays out as something completely senseless that negatively affects several big features of the game.

-
ill make a thread with full description sometime later today.

Attacks of opportunity are good. Being able to turn your back and walk away from the guy stabbing you with zero consequence was stupid in the IE games.

This isnt attack of opportunity and you are not turning your back to anyone, least of all " a guy stabbing you".

Every pig, wolf, sprite, brainless zombie, troll or whatever else is doing it and the Ai is paralyzed because of it. As much as you are, as a player.

 

[Morkar Left]

But...that's exactly what you do in the IE games. Even doing so with your weak wizard who lacks weapons and armor.

But more important than being stupid from a realism perspective, it was stupid from a gameplay perspective. There wasn't much of a consequence to letting someone with a sword run up to your wizard. As long as they could take the blow, they could just walk away from the person. It also lead to stupid stuff like dancing your characters in and out of combat when they were dying, or running a character around in a circle while they other 5 filled the enemies with arrows. Good riddance.

I'm not defending this. I'm all for engaging mechanics. I just think the current mechanics could be tweaked.

The mechanic already does a check against the attack (with an accuracy bonus given when the enemy tries to disengage) and there are abilities to deal with it (or increase the effect of it). I haven't played enough to get a great feel for it, but it at least seems a lot better than the silliness of the IE games.

That's the problem: the enemy automatically gets a free attack with an attack bonus and I think it was 150% damage on top of it.

I want to make disengaging less lethal. The reason you want to disengage is fleeing, helping another teammember or making a beeline through the enemies defensive line. Which are all good tactical options for making combat more interesting when the situation occurs. You shouldn't discourage it by bringing you at an disadvantage by trying it. Make it only difficult to achieve. Because for all these actions to succeed time is the critical factor. It's not the question if you can disengage but when you can disengage.

 

[Tigranes]

hiver

Based on my experience (admittedly only ~10 hours), it's not suicidal. For Alroth getting engaged can mean knockdown, but he'd die in two hits without engagement, too; for Eder it rarely means death. I've had him pull out of his engagements multiple times to come and engage things that had got to, say, Alroth. My Cipher seems to do OK too. And no, I haven't used Grimoire Slam, the disengagement talent, or any of those multiple ways in which you can escape engagement - that would make it even more manageable. (There's also knockdown, paralysis...) I just don't see how an enemy getting a free attack on you as you move away is suicidal. In that case, what about AOD, where you try to move away, the enemy gets a free hit, and if you're hit you actually fail to move away? There's a situation where it really can be suicidal... but even in AOD, there's ways to mitigate that (high dodge, etc) and moving away presents itself as an available tactical option.

My experience again wasn't Automated Gangbang, at least not significantly more than IE games or other CRPGs where you'd focus fire on opponents anyway. This is hard to argue either way, though, if we're just going to say 'it happens a lot' 'no it doesn't.' Happy to hear more reasons.

I agree it'd be interesting to have fighters as the one class that can really upgrade engagement to deal with multiple enemies, and also do things like have abilities that work on engaged enemies (e.g. knock down, with a generous Save vs. on all engaged enemies). I think it's a really good idea and I hope someone mods that. My point though was that this would not fundamentally change the engagement system from how it works currently - it would just improve it. I think the fundamentals of the system are solid, so I'm behind that. For anyone who thinks Engagement is completely broken and, say, they'd rather play without it, I don't think it solves the problem. But maybe that wasn't your position anyway? (My secondary point was that insofar as engagement is mostly used by fighter-types on any side against non-fighter types on another side, it again wouldn't change the fundamentals.)

 

[hiver]

We can talk about it in more details in the thread when i make it, but AoD has a very different system that didnt just use bucket paint tool to plaster one design over every single thing in the game.

- ninja edit - (at least in such combat mechanics, to be sure) - Which is why it results in a different gameplay.

Of course, being TB is a significant difference to start with, but there are other finer details to it that mean a lot.

I said already that replacing one extreme decision with another is dumb and serves nothing. Engagement should not swivel between two such extreme overblown design decision such as plastering it over absolutely everything and removing it completely.

And yes, that was not my position at all. Why the fuck would anyone think so if they read my suggestion?

And my idea would change the fundamentals of how combat "behaves" in practice. But not the "fundamentals" of the idea. It would only make it better.

For future reference: It is Sensukis idea to remove it completely, which to me is as stupid as current implementation.
It is MY idea to ... haha... balance it. The Mean path gentlemen.


-
and now im off to take my bicycle ride and a coffee in the sun.

 

[Decado]

I have not found the engagement mechanic to be punishing, at all. It is a tactical limitation you have to factor in to your decision making, which I like.

My current party is Me (Paladin), Eder, Durance, Aloth, and storebought ranger and rogue. Using a custom party formation I have me, Eder, and my ranger's bear (his name is George) up front. I haven't had a problem "keeping aggro" unless Aloth starts to really belt out spells, in which case enemies will break engagement to go after him. Sometimes this works really well, almost like a taunt to give my guys a free attack, because by the time the enemies get to Aloth I've gotten a few free whacks in. It is a pretty neat system. I like it.

 

[pakoito]

Do chanter stuff stack with other chanter's?

 

[Shannow]

So far the worst part of PoI is its apalling lack of companions. 8 companions is like...nothing. It's like another Wasteland 2 with fucking retarded system of party creation. Walking templates and mute mannequins. BG2 handles it best - no created companions. Each with their own story. Aloth, Durance, Eder, Grieving Mother, Hiravias, Kana Rua, Sagani and Pallegina is nothing compared to BG2's 16. Even with one or two personal quests and a few lines of story they are endlessly more appealing than player-created crap. bck then player could choose how to form thir party - evil, neutral and good partied had their share of interesting companions to choose from. Pillars of Eternity loses here completely.

Then you should have donated enough to the KS for eight additional companions
I'm more in the camp that I wish the game had either NPC companions or party generation. Seeing the possibility of generating my own companions makes me itch to get rid of the other unoptimized ones... but I also want to keep them for story exposition...*headexplode*
And so far I find them very likeable and interesting. So far the best companions since PS:T, imho.

It seems that the Quest for Balance has necessitated all logic being thrown out of the window. The grease spell seems to work on floating enemies and blinding effects work on the shadow creatures.

Shades are also "just" highly resistant to cold instead of immune. But that's the same way I would design a game. And the "explanation" would be that it's not just cold but magical cold damage. The same rationalization would work for Grease and Blind. The spell effects are an imposition of the caster's will on his enemies. No idea if that helps you, but that's the way I see it.

I just realized that the game has magical headware. Somehow I thought that it didn't because I couldn't enchant the common stuff. Now I'm hoping that they're all crap because otherwise the powergamer in me would be very sad for taking a flame godlike...

With some levels under your belt, disengagement doesn't pose such a problem. Aloth got a cloak of disengagement and I switch to a weapon-set with shield when he's engaged. I still think that teleporting onto squishies is shit (I'd restrict it to a 5m flash that can only be used once per encounter and leaves the caster "unbalanced" or something (slight maluses to att&def) for 2 seconds). But otherwise I like the gameplay more and more.
With more levels and magical equipment my char is finally starting to shine. Still shit damage output against anything with more than 10 DT but still.
And I'm loving Kana. Though he feels completely OP...
My main gripe is still lack of information.

 

[Space Satan]

BG2 had this problem when existing companions that you like had FUCKING GODAWFULFUCKWTFISWRONGWITHYOU stats. Especially for goold-alignment group, as evil ones got superb cleric, superb tank and only lacked rogue.

 

[Decado]

BG2 had this problem when existing companions that you like had FUCKING GODAWFULFUCKWTFISWRONGWITHYOU stats. Especially for goold-alignment group, as evil ones got superb cleric, superb tank and only lacked rogue.

Yeah. I remember Keldorn's and Anomen's dex being dumb as fuck low.

 

[hiver]

engagement system solution in full:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/engagement-system-solution.98075/

 

[Brayko]

A little indifferent about the story so far but other than that, best thing I've played since Bloodborne, which was the best thing I've played since Dark Souls.

 

[Black_Willow]

BG2 had this problem when existing companions that you like had FUCKING GODAWFULFUCKWTFISWRONGWITHYOU stats. Especially for goold-alignment group, as evil ones got superb cleric, superb tank and only lacked rogue.

Yeah. I remember Keldorn's and Anomen's dex being dumb as fuck low.

Well, anomen might've been a low-dex jerk, but he had 16 Wis.

 

[deranged]

So is it possible to totally avoid combat ?

 

[Diablo169]

No but you can go for a fairly low combat run, there's an achievement for not killing many enemies.

 

[Shannow]

How do you know you are powerful if you don't kill every red circle in sight? Who needs xp, gibs are all the reward I need.

 

[Darkzone]

Has someone the answer to this spoiler question below about Eder?

Spoiler

The Eders quest: Fragments of a scattered believe. Is there a solution for this quest after Maerwald is killed? Because Eder had no chance to speak to him, but this quest is still open. Is this a bug?

 

[Tigranes]

Has someone the answer to this spoiler question below about Eder?

Spoiler

The Eders quest: Fragments of a scattered believe. Is there a solution for this quest after Maerwald is killed? Because Eder had no chance to speak to him, but this quest is still open. Is this a bug?

Talk to him. When NPCs want to speak to you they get a little talk icon on their portraits. Talk to them by clicking them and cliccking talk butotn on the hotbar. If you haven't done this already there should be quite a few conversations you should catch up on.

 

[Darkzone]

Has someone the answer to this spoiler question below about Eder?

Spoiler

The Eders quest: Fragments of a scattered believe. Is there a solution for this quest after Maerwald is killed? Because Eder had no chance to speak to him, but this quest is still open. Is this a bug?

Talk to him. When NPCs want to speak to you they get a little talk icon on their portraits. Talk to them by clicking them and cliccking talk butotn on the hotbar. If you haven't done this already there should be quite a few conversations you should catch up on.

Have talked to him, before Maerwald, and after Maerwald he has no update on the topics.