Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Parabalus]

Are people still stuck on the 20 MIGHT wizards? What is the problem?

I'm not stuck on 20 MIGHT wizards, although its silly. The bigger problem is that, unlike Pillars, under AD&D 2nd Edition, at least at the extremes (16+) attributes start to have a significant and increasing impact on tactical performance. This is NOT true in Pillars.

This is just plain wrong. The only AD&D attribute COMPARABLE to PoE's in effectiveness is Strength <==> Might in the role of buffing melee damage. All other DnD attributes are blown out by PoE's on a per point basis, but PoE's attributes also have secondary uses.

You can criticize PoE's system but the attributes are something it def. did right.

What? Let's look at the other stats then.

DEXTERITY
15: -1AC
16: -2 AC, range THAC0 -1, +5 thief skills
17: -3 AC, range THAC0 -2, +20 thief skills
18: -4 AC, range THAC0 -2, +55 thief skills
..25: -6 AC, range THAC0 -5, +210 thief skills

CONSTITUTION
15: +1 Warrior HP/ level, racial savings throw -4
16: +2 Warrior HP/ level, racial savings throw -4
17: +3 Warrior HP/ level, racial savings throw -4
18: +4 Warrior HP/ level, racial savings throw -5
...25: +7 Warrior HP/ level, +1 hp regen/ 10 seconds, racial savings throw -5

INTELLECT
16: 11 wizard spells/ level max
17: 14 wizard spells/ level max
18: 18 wizard spells/ level max
19+: all wizard spells/ level
In addition, in PnP intellect affects known skills and languages -> dialogue choices

WISDOM
15: 2/1/0/0 priest spell bonus
16: 2/2/0/0 priest spell bonus
17: 2/2/1/0 priest spell bonus
18: 2/2/1/1 priest spell bonus
...25: 3/3/3/4/4/3/1 priest spell bonus

CHARISMA
15: +3 reaction adjustment
16: +4
17: +4
18: +5
In the game this is reflected in dialogue and quest rewards, etc...

But more importantly, extreme stats in AD&D affects vastly different things, whereas every stat point in PoE equates to ~ +3% combat bonus. If not in one form, it is in another form, but the difference is marginal, whereas the difference between 17 STR, 18 WIS and 18(xx) STR, 17 WIS is significant. In PoE, a PC with flat stats isn't going to be tactically much less effective than a PC with min/ maxed stats. Slightly more damage vs. slightly more accurate vs. slightly quicker attacks doesn't make a significant tactical difference. PoE's rule set design is fail.

Compare 10 vs 25 in an attribute in PoE vs BG, which doesn't include that PoE's can go >25.

For DEX, take archers in Bg vs Pillars, it's a ~ 40% dps increase for PoE, while in DnD it's ~ 25% in the middle case. AC is analogous to RES + 3 DEF, again it's ~30% vs ~45% ish for PoE.
Thief skills have no analogue, but it's very misleading to write the total added sum, makes it seem like a humongous number.

CON in DnD works only for warriors, while Pillars makes it useful for everyone at a lower efficency. Again, PoE gives +75%, while BGs are worse relatively, even at 10 + 7 for fighters, with the caveat that CON's usefullness increases if you roll for HP, to guarantee a usable minimum.

INT is garbage in BG. Max learned spells per level are meaningless since you need 5 spells per level AT MOST. The EE's actually enforce min 18 INT to scribe lvl 9 scrolls or learn HLAs, which is useless since potions of genius exist. PoE's effect on duration and dual zone AoE is unique in the genre. Even a rogue with 3 vs 18 INT plays very differently.

WIS doesn't have a direct comparison, but it shines mostly in BG1 for the low level heal spells (not even sure if you can rest with 25 for the +1HLA use), and a decent score (-6 for potions of insight) for the sahaguin beholder and wish abuse.

CHA is thrash. I've never seen a comprehensive list of the supposed effects on Bg1 quests and dialogue, but it's mechanical effects are of discount are trite, especially with since you can talk with a npc.

You may contest the explainations for particular attributes, but PoE's main design strength is that it has no dump stats. PoE fighter vs DnD fighter, for BG I dump everything but STR,CON,DEX , maybe reroll for better 18/xx. PoE's fighter, depending on attribute spread, I decide how adept he is at taking vs dealing damage, relative value of passive vs active abilities/items . There is a choice of HOW I want to setup my fighter, compared to Bg's either-he-sucks-or-not.

The 17/18 vs 18xx/17 is disingenous since xx is worth several attribute points. You keep thinking in 3% increments, but 3 points in MIG and DEX ends up in ~10*10% DPS increase which is noticable, and as established, more than comparable to Bg.

 

[Lacrymas]

Eh, CON and RES are dump stats for the majority of builds in PoE. But, yeah, purely numerically, PoE's attributes give more bonuses than attributes in the BG series.

 

[Iznaliu]

The soulbounds disappointed me, was expecting something a bit more wild. The only exciting part is that they are hat + belt, new slots.

I would actually be a bit concerned if they put too much effort into it since they should be focusing on PoE2.

 

[Jason Liang]

Yes but you guys just keep missing the key point. 3% in one stat is not tactically more significant compared to 3% in a different stat. Since all builds more or less end up with the same total amount of stat points, it makes attribute distribution tactically insignificant.

Let's not mince words here. I don't mean practically insignificant. There is an actual practical difference between a PoE character with 18 DEX, 10 INT and one with 10 DEX, 18 INT. But that practical difference doesn't translate into a significant tactical difference. Even though the premade companions do not have optimal attribute distribution, and yes, compared to a min-maxed custom companion they will be practically less effective, the difference between the two isn't significant tactically. At that point, why even have attributes? It becomes no different than a jrpg like Final Fantasy.

The AD&D 2nd Edition rules are by no means perfect or even ideal, but they aren't absurd (in the philosophical sense) the way that PoE's rule set is.

 

[Ninjerk]

I have a solution: allow the player to grind mobs for 100s of hours for attribute boosting items.

 

[Background Character]

Alright I swear this is gonna be the LAST playthrough

 

[Parabalus]

Eh, CON and RES are dump stats for the majority of builds in PoE. But, yeah, purely numerically, PoE's attributes give more bonuses than attributes in the BG series.

For ranged builds and 2h extended builds, yes. On melee dumping both down to 3 leads to needing constant micro on every fight.

Yes but you guys just keep missing the key point. 3% in one stat is not tactically more significant compared to 3% in a different stat. Since all builds more or less end up with the same total amount of stat points, it makes attribute distribution tactically insignificant.

You are complaining that you encounter no garbage NPCs with shitty total attributes?

Let's not mince words here. I don't mean practically insignificant. There is an actual practical difference between a PoE character with 18 DEX, 10 INT and one with 10 DEX, 18 INT. But that practical difference doesn't translate into a significant tactical difference. Even though the premade companions do not have optimal attribute distribution, and yes, compared to a min-maxed custom companion they will be practically less effective, the difference between the two isn't significant tactically. At that point, why even have attributes? It becomes no different than a jrpg like Final Fantasy.

There are differences but you refuse to acknowledge them. Take Minsc with his

• Strength: 18 (+93)
• Dexterity: 15
• Constitution: 15
• Intelligence: 8
• Wisdom: 6
• Charisma: 9

In BG his lack of mental stats is utterly meaningless. Translate this to PoE, he would have garbage WILL, low duration on his buffs and debuffs, low ACC vs bosses. Do tell how his difference in stats will lead you to utilize him tactically compared to Khalid:

• Strength: 15
• Dexterity: 16
• Constitution: 17
• Intelligence: 12
• Wisdom: 10
• Charisma: 9

Khalid has slightly higher eHP to pair with his gutted THC and +DMG. How will this difference express itself as a tactical difference?
Equipment choice is a weak answer since PoE's system influences this more, INT leading to strong preferences for active vs passive equipment.

 

[Lacrymas]

A Wizard with 18 MIG and 10 INT is vastly different than a Wizard with 10 MIG and 18 INT, no idea what you are smoking. I hate the majority of PoE and even I can see that. The BG series has very clear cut attributes where even a slight deviation from that will result in a shittier character. That's why the evil NPCs in BG1 are so overpowered compared to the not-evil ones, they have more numbers in the attributes that actually matter. That wouldn't be the case if they had more numbers in those that don't. If Edwin had 16 STR, 18 CHA and 17 WIS, but 13 INT he would be absolutely useless, apart from maybe dual-classing to Cleric. However, if a PoE Wizard has 16 MIG, 18 DEX and 17 PER, but 13 INT he would be a pretty good character.

 

[Jason Liang]

The statistical difference between Minsc and Khalid would be even MORE insignificant in the Pillars system. Minsc's extreme strength, which is rewarded by the AD&D 2nd edition rule set, makes him a far more reliable fighter at lower levels than Khalid. Khalid's low strength means that you are much more likely to give him a weapon that doesn't receive a strength bonus to damage, such as a longbow, and develop that weapon proficiency.

Stats in AD&D are also important for far more significant strategic reasons. In AD&D, stats qualify humans for dual classing, which is a privotal character choice. In NWN/ 3E, stats determine which feats you are allowed choose from. Pillars doesn't have this.

But again, don't use D&D as a straw man. Compare Pillars garbage rule set with a rule set that has real thought put into its design, like Age of Decadence. Obviously every stat point allocation in AoD is enormously significant.

 

[Grunker]

Yes but you guys just keep missing the key point. 3% in one stat is not tactically more significant compared to 3% in a different stat. Since all builds more or less end up with the same total amount of stat points, it makes attribute distribution tactically insignificant.

Let's not mince words here. I don't mean practically insignificant. There is an actual practical difference between a PoE character with 18 DEX, 10 INT and one with 10 DEX, 18 INT. But that practical difference doesn't translate into a significant tactical difference. Even though the premade companions do not have optimal attribute distribution, and yes, compared to a min-maxed custom companion they will be practically less effective, the difference between the two isn't significant tactically. At that point, why even have attributes? It becomes no different than a jrpg like Final Fantasy.

The AD&D 2nd Edition rules are by no means perfect or even ideal, but they aren't absurd (in the philosophical sense) the way that PoE's rule set is.

youa re dumb

 

[Lacrymas]

That doesn't change the fact that Khalid is objectively shittier than Minsc, no matter that you can give him a longbow to compensate for his shit stats.

 

[Jason Liang]

...

You know you've argued my point for me right?

A. You claim that a wizard with 18 might 10 int is vastly different than 10 might 18 int.

B. Yet you admit that a wizard with 13 int is still a pretty good wizard.

Yes, because the stats DON'T make a significant tactical difference. A wizard in 13 INT vs a wizard with 18 INT in D&D is noticably different. but in Pillars it is not. This is not a feature of a good rule set. It's a feature of a stupid rule set.

An actually good rule set like Age of Decadence, the difference between minimum strength and maximum strength is enormous, and the character's tactical abilities are completely different.

 

[Lacrymas]

Is that what you want? A single and automatic way to distribute attributes with no room for deviation? Why have attributes then?

 

[Jason Liang]

Is that what you want? A single and automatic way to distribute attributes with no room for deviation? Why have attributes then?

a. The D&D rule set was designed for stats to be rolled, not a point-buy system where stats are freely distributed.

b. Claiming that the D&D rules have no room for deviation is reductio ad absurdam. Even a point buy system like NWN, even for a warrior there's significant deviation between dumping INT (8), average INT (10), enough INT for Expertise (13) and maximum INT without increased cost (14).

c. Its the Pillars system that makes attribute distribution insignificant, not the other way around.

 

[Grunker]

You're missing the point, Lacrymas. AD&D fanatics don't argue the way normal people do i.e. "What's a good argument -> how does this fit with a given system." It's in reverse i.e. "What does AD&D do -> how do I argue that that's good."

 

[Lacrymas]

Ok, try making 2 Wizards in PoE. One with dumped MIG to 3 and another with max MIG. Now try playing them in a damage dealer kind of way. I'll wait.

 

[Jason Liang]

A better example to look at is ToEE where you pretty much want to roll you characters. Sure, ofcourse you're going to give your primary attribute your highest roll, but which attributes to assign your middle and low rolls is quite significant. Do you keep the character with two 18's but also a 4, or the character with only one 18 but the lowest score is 14?

 

[Jason Liang]

Ok, try making 2 Wizards in PoE. One with dumped MIG to 3 and another with max MIG. Now try playing them in a damage dealer kind of way. I'll wait.

lol that's my point. It doesn't really matter. Pillars with a Might dumped wizard is not significantly more difficult than Pillars with a Might maxed wizard. You'll barely notice a difference.

Please tell me which part in the main storyline where the difference between dumped and maxed Might makes a significant difference.

 

[Lacrymas]

lol that's my point. It doesn't really matter. Pillars with a Might dumped wizard is not significantly more difficult than Pillars with a Might maxed wizard. You'll barely notice a difference.

Please tell me which part in the main storyline where the difference between dumped and maxed Might makes a significant difference.

I'm starting to think you haven't actually experimented with PoE's system at all. It matters, a lot. The only difference between AD&D and PoE is that you have access to your spells and abilities if you have dumped stats in PoE, everything else is objectively more valuable in terms of numbers and effects in PoE.

 

[Grunker]

What Jason actually doesn't seem to be matter vs. not matter, it's that one choice is not strictly, completely indisputably better than the other

 

[Sannom]

Yes, because the stats DON'T make a significant tactical difference. A wizard in 13 INT vs a wizard with 18 INT in D&D is noticably different. but in Pillars it is not. This is not a feature of a good rule set. It's a feature of a stupid rule set.

The only difference between those in D&D is that one is an inherently stupid and shitty thing to do, tactical difference doesn't even enter into it. Whereas in PoE it might be that you decide to make a wizard who decides to focus on single-target burst damage spells rather than anything with an area of effect or duration.

 

[Parabalus]

The statistical difference between Minsc and Khalid would be even MORE insignificant in the Pillars system. Minsc's extreme strength, which is rewarded by the AD&D 2nd edition rule set, makes him a far more reliable fighter at lower levels than Khalid. Khalid's low strength means that you are much more likely to give him a weapon that doesn't receive a strength bonus to damage, such as a longbow, and develop that weapon proficiency.

Stats in AD&D are also important for far more significant strategic reasons. In AD&D, stats qualify humans for dual classing, which is a privotal character choice. In NWN/ 3E, stats determine which feats you are allowed choose from. Pillars doesn't have this.

But again, don't use D&D as a straw man. Compare Pillars garbage rule set with a rule set that has real thought put into its design, like Age of Decadence. Obviously every stat point allocation in AoD is enormously significant.

Khalid's and Minsc STR corresponds to a 12 point MIG difference, or 36% damage without DR piercing taken in effect. The benefit of -2/+5 will be evenish for 2h weapons and will win for 2x1h, but MIG is only one out of PoE's 4 melee DPS attributes (MIG,DEX,PER,INT) compared to BG's only STR. PoE just wins.

Equipment choices based on attributes are not an argument where BG wins. Low MIG would favour a weapon with high base damage <=> no str longbow, but which particular weapon in Pillars you would give is further influenced by other attributes. DEX influences changes depending on recovery penalty (PoE has some fixed frames until 0 rec), INT influences whether you want passive effects or debuffs (potentially lower self debuffs), PER how much ACC from type and enchants. The system is much richer.

AoD is great system, but it's strength relies much more heavily on the story drawbacks and gains from attributes, not only their mechanical effects. Dungeon Rats would be a better comparison, since we're talking about combat effects (BG does not use attributes for story purposes at all pretty much). There are significant differences in playstyle between a 10 10 4 and a 10 4 10 relating to armor and attack choice, the melee combat system is no doubt deeper since there are no abilities and it started as a single char tbRPG.

Yes but you guys just keep missing the key point. 3% in one stat is not tactically more significant compared to 3% in a different stat. Since all builds more or less end up with the same total amount of stat points, it makes attribute distribution tactically insignificant.

Let's not mince words here. I don't mean practically insignificant. There is an actual practical difference between a PoE character with 18 DEX, 10 INT and one with 10 DEX, 18 INT. But that practical difference doesn't translate into a significant tactical difference. Even though the premade companions do not have optimal attribute distribution, and yes, compared to a min-maxed custom companion they will be practically less effective, the difference between the two isn't significant tactically. At that point, why even have attributes? It becomes no different than a jrpg like Final Fantasy.

The AD&D 2nd Edition rules are by no means perfect or even ideal, but they aren't absurd (in the philosophical sense) the way that PoE's rule set is.

youa re dumb

No, Jason Liang is an intelligent poster, see eg. his posts in the AoD thread.

 

[Turjan]

https://www.gog.com/game/pillars_of_eternity_deadfire_pack

Free? DLC? From Paradox?

I don't think Paradox have much say in what happens with PoE. They are more involved with Tranny.

I think in this case, as it's more a "promotion for PoE II" pack, this may even be Paradox's wish.

 

[Grunker]

youa re dumb

No, Jason Liang is an intelligent poster, see eg. his posts in the AoD thread.

'tis a meme, newbie

 

[Sannom]

I think in this case, as it's more a "promotion for PoE II" pack, this may even be Paradox's wish.

Paradox isn't involved in Deadfire.