Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Parabalus]

Gay characters can be done well. Arcade, for example - you wouldn't know he was gay at all if he didn't mention it off-hand in one of his dialogues. And that's just it, it's handled naturally.

On the other hand, Maneha has plenty of references to it - with Pallegina, Kana Rua, Devil of Caroc (maybe others as well, but those I definitely remember) - as well as in dialogues with the PC, and other interactions.

Now, I don't think it's agenda pushing the same way BioWare does it, but there isn't a whole lot to her character besides: lesbian, mercenary, giddy, Ondra. And it clashes with the rest of the characters.

Arcade is contemplative and silent/shy by nature though, while Maneha is extremely extroverted - to me it makes sense for her to be much more "pushy" than him. I think she mentions it off hand in PC dialogue, and the companions are flirting/refusal/perverse curiosity? To me all that seemed in character, I think she also banters with Hiravias.

I'm not trying to paint her as great or anything, but "agenda" never really popped into my head with her, like you mention BioWare does it much more aggressively.

The part I really hated about her is there was no dialogue option to

Spoiler

cheer her on because of her brutal tactics, all the responses are apologetic. Really jarring since the game is usually quite generous with [Cruel] and [Rational]

 

[Sizzle]

Agenda may have been too strong a word, but I do believe that her entire character was based around "lesbian, pirate, jolly", with her every word and action revolving solely around those aspects. So she comes across as artificial, something you'd expect a fanfic writer to come up with.

 

[Sizzle]

When it was first revealed the sequel was going to take place in the Deadfire, I was almost sure they were going to bring her back as a companion.

It would have made perfect sense, her being a pirate and Aumauan. Luckily, they didn't go the obvious way there :D

 

[santino27]

When it was first revealed the sequel was going to take place in the Deadfire, I was almost sure they were going to bring her back as a companion.

It would have made perfect sense, her being a pirate and Aumauan. Luckily, they didn't go the obvious way there :D

I think some of it is that she was an expansion companion and therefore a smaller subset of POE1 players would have even seen her, let alone played with her or been interested in her continuing story. I'd think fan reaction would play a part too except this is JES and that didn't seem to be part of the calculus for picking eder, aloth, and pallegina.

I'd be shocked if we don't run into her though in POE2. They've said we're going to see more than the 3 returning companions... the others just won't be joinable.

 

[FreeKaner]

Gay characters can be done well. Arcade, for example - you wouldn't know he was gay at all if he didn't mention it off-hand in one of his dialogues. And that's just it, it's handled naturally.

On the other hand, Maneha has plenty of references to it - with Pallegina, Kana Rua, Devil of Caroc (maybe others as well, but those I definitely remember) - as well as in dialogues with the PC, and other interactions.

"Be gay but be inconspicuous about it." is such a garbage writing "wisdom". Whether a character's sexuality (or anything else for that matter) is well designed has nothing to do with if they are overt about it or not, it depends on their characterisation on the whole. A character can be well written while being extremely sexual and being defined by their sexuality. Keeping bedroom talk for bedroom as an approach is application of some sort of basic bitch morals as if it is literary convention, hint: it is not.

I would say Mahena isn't a well written character because she is not very interesting, which is quite the accomplishment considering who she is supposed to be.

 

[Sizzle]

When it was first revealed the sequel was going to take place in the Deadfire, I was almost sure they were going to bring her back as a companion.

It would have made perfect sense, her being a pirate and Aumauan. Luckily, they didn't go the obvious way there :D

I think some of it is that she was an expansion companion and therefore a smaller subset of POE1 players would have even seen her, let alone played with her or been interested in her continuing story. I'd think fan reaction would play a part too except this is JES and that didn't seem to be part of the calculus for picking eder, aloth, and pallegina.

I'd be shocked if we don't run into her though in POE2. They've said we're going to see more than the 3 returning companions... the others just won't be joinable.

Eder was obviously always going to be in the sequel (I'm betting he'll be in PoE3, too) - he's the fan favorite, the bro, the Varric of the series. But I was genuinely surprised when that PoE2 returning line-up included Pallegina. Besides being written by JS, not a lot of people liked her.

"Be gay but be inconspicuous about it." is such a garbage writing "wisdom". Whether a character's sexuality (or anything else for that matter) is well designed has nothing to do with if they are overt about it or not, it depends on their characterisation on the whole. A character can be well written while being extremely sexual and being defined by their sexuality. Keeping bedroom talk for bedroom as an approach is application of some sort of basic bitch morals as if it is literary convention, hint: it is not.

I would say Mahena isn't a well written character because she is not very interesting, which is quite the accomplishment considering who she is supposed to be.

Which is exactly what I said - either actually do something interesting with those character traits, or don't even bother bringing it up. But having her "I likes ta bang chicks, ya know." all the time isn't interesting or endearing, it just comes across as a writer struggling to say something significant, and failing.

What it all boils down to is - she's not a bad character because she's gay, she's a bad character because there's not much to her besides being gay. If, instead of a homosexual woman - she was a heterosexual man, (s)he would still be just as annoying with all the tales of sexual exploits.

 

[Grunker]

Well, the written by JS part was the thing don't you think? It's one of the only characters in the entire game I remember him speaking about with passion. Which, again, as much as I like the man for his passion about systems, his taste in writing seems to mirror a painter who loves working with 50 shades of grey.

For better or worse, I could recall some bits of writing from all characters in PoE as I replayed the game with them. With Pallegina there was just nothing.

 

[santino27]

Well, the written by JS part was the thing don't you think? It's one of the only characters in the entire game I remember him speaking about with passion. Which, again, as much as I like the man for his passion about systems, his taste in writing seems to mirror a painter who loves working with 50 shades of grey.

For better or worse, I could recall some bits of writing from all characters in PoE as I replayed the game with them. With Pallegina there was just nothing.

Supposedly (and he repeated it in the stream just now), the choice of characters came from Eric Fenstermaker and Carrie Patel, in terms of which 3 they felt would make the most sense to carry into Deadfire.

In actuality, I imagine there was more to it than that, (including his own opinion and wants), but Roguey was busy digging through MCA's personal history at the time, so we may never know the real story.

 

[Sizzle]

Considering the choice of factions - yeah, the most sense, they needed someone for the Vailians.

 

[FreeKaner]

I do like Pallegina, she is an interesting character.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think they dismissed WM companions right away because it sold like crap.

 

[santino27]

Considering the choice of factions - yeah, the most sense, they needed someone for the Vailians.

Aloth is the one who makes the least sense, honestly... Eder has the Eothas connection, Pallegina the Vallian Republic connection. Again in the stream, Josh said Aloth had a strong story-based reason... we just don't know what it is at this point. (Then again, you can create a strong, story-based reason for anyone with enough time and effort)

 

[Sizzle]

Maybe Aloth means that the Leaden Key will again play an important role.

 

[FreeKaner]

I think they dismissed WM companions right away because it sold like crap.

That's really horrible because WM1-2 is what makes the game worthwhile and both Devil of Caroc and Zahua are interesting as concepts.

 

[Starwars]

Josh also mentioned in the latest Deadfire stream, and mentioning that it was a small spoiler, that the Leaden Key was behind that the printing press had not been invented.

I'm mainly hoping that the characters will feel a bit more fleshed out mainly. Eder felt great in PoE1 I think, but Aloth and Pallegina felt rather "thin" despite the fact that I liked their characters.
I thought Pallegina's little scene when you interact with Hylea was pretty nicely done.

I will miss Zahua though, he grew to be my favorite character in the first game. A good combination of seriousness and comic relief.

 

[CptMace]

Eder felt great in PoE1

Wait for deadfire to feel him even more intimately.

 

[santino27]

Josh also mentioned in the latest Deadfire stream, and mentioning that it was a small spoiler, that the Leaden Key was behind that the printing press had not been invented.

It wasn't the leaden key.. it was a different group, the Hand Occult, that I can't really remember seeing in the game:

Was there a narrative reason to exclude the printing press in this world?

JS: Yes. Little bit of a spoiler here, but I think people may have known about this...so, the Leaden Key is fairly prominent, obviously, in the first game. There's another organization that is not very prominent because they operate in an even more subdued way, which is the Hand Occult. The Hand Occult, they—and we do elaborate on this in a few minor sort of side areas—the Hand Occult, not only do they edit the historical records of Eora, they also actively work to sabotage the creation of movable type printing presses. There's nothing particularly fancy about a movable type printing press, but somehow every time someone gets close to making one they trip and fall into a fire

 

[Lacrymas]

We don't really see the effects of the missing printing press in PoE, though. There is no obvious divide between the education levels of the upper classes and those under them. Besides animancy, I guess, but it seems like nobody that isn't them knows what they are doing. There is also no corruption or "creative interpretation" of dogma within any of the churches to start a Reformation-like revolution. I.e. what is the reason the Hand Occult have for sabotaging the printing press? Also, how would they know the grand and overwhelming effects such a device will have? It seems they have metaknowledge from the real world, lol.

I also find it funny how they are yet another cult, but even more secretive than the Leaden Key. It kind of reminds me of a NWN module "inspired by" A Dance with Rogues where there was not 1, not 2, but 3 sex cults.

 

[FreeKaner]

Yeah the printing press excuse seems extremely flimsy, especially since we have widespread books already.

 

[santino27]

Yeah the printing press excuse seems extremely flimsy, especially since we have widespread books already.

Agreed. In that same Q&A, they asked about the books, which Sawyer at least acknowledged made little sense:

If there's no printing press why are there so many copies of the same book?

JS: That's a good point. There really should not be that many books in the world. We put them in there just because we like having books all over the place. But you're right, it's not realistic; it would take a very long time to make all those books.

 

[Mexi]

Seriously, how fucking autistic do you have to be to even notice something stupid like the amount of books lying around? Back to a serious conversation, Zahua is a fucking beast! I'm on PotD difficulty, and he's chopping through enemies if they're dumb enough to target him with weak attacks. I thought he was shit at first because we were getting our asses kicked by the two greater ice blights. He does no damage to them with his fists. Gave him another shot, and he's eating through the enemy.

It's going to be hard to replace him with Grieving Mother when I back to to Dyrwood. Grieving Mother is a beast too, but she's not as powerful as Zahua.

 

[Lacrymas]

When the setting has been described as "Renaissance, but without the printing press" people will immediately notice the amount of books because that exact thing has been stressed...

 

[Delterius]

you can use animancy to create books, obviously

 

[Cross]

If there's no printing press why are there so many copies of the same book?

JS: That's a good point. There really should not be that many books in the world. We put them in there just because we like having books all over the place. But you're right, it's not realistic; it would take a very long time to make all those books.

So they were so preoccupied with dumping their lore on the player that they forgot that those lore books contradicted their lore on the printing press not existing?

Talk about missing the forest for the trees.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but this is another thing that the Infinity Engine games handled much better. Planescape: Torment, for all its walls of text, doesn't have a single lore book in the entire game. And while Baldur's Gate had tons of them (and was the obvious inspiration for PoE's lore books), by the sequel Bioware seemed to have learned their lesson and left them out almost entirely.

 

[Roguey]

by the sequel Bioware seemed to have learned their lesson and left them out almost entirely.

I remember a ton of books in BG2.