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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

AwesomeButton

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yeah well, that's like your opinion man
But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'.

And the parley dialogue is a Pillars style storybook exercise, nothing freeform about it. The closest to freeform dialogue are the TES minigames, and that's horrible.
TBH, Rusty if you replay Deadfire with different classes and backgrounds, and party members' combinations, you'll be surprised how many combination-specific lines you will get. It's never like the real thing, but it's still pretty good.

And I agree with you on the immersive sims thing. It reminded me of the teleportation puzzles in D:OS2 being an original and fun activty, although always optional as far as I know.
 
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3. The least often encountered outcome - your combination works, and you get that "good rpg feeling".
If it always worked, you'd never get that feeling. That's exactly what the storybook design does, it just points you exactly where to go and gives you a list of options to pick from.
 

Parabalus

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But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'. And the parley dialogue is a another storybook exercise.

That's overly broad. It's like saying any physical obstacle is reduce hp to 0 if you end up destroying it in any manner, or a storybook exercise if you use some other manner of bypassing it or engage in any dialog. It's like saying I win this argument because everything in the world is categorized as either this thing or that thing, no matter how much of a stretch.

Pretty sure there is a lot of similarity between a wooden barrel blocking a bridge and a troll blocking a bridge.
 

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3. The least often encountered outcome - your combination works, and you get that "good rpg feeling".
If it always worked, you'd never get that feeling. That's exactly what the storybook design does, it just points you exactly where to go and gives you a list of options to pick from.
Not necessarily. In Deadfire, depending on your game preferences settings, you can choose to hide the dialogue or scripted interactions options for which your character is not qualified. Just yesterday I thought that a quest just has one solution, and when I checked the wiki, I found that I could have solved it in one different way, for which I could be qualified by three different conditions. One was a combination of two skills which needed to be raised to a given level, an alternative condition was one other skill plus one character background, and the third alternative was one skill but at a pretty high level. I saw neither of these options in my dialogue. :)


What's usually missing in computer RPGs is the ability to ask for a hint by some in-character action. In Deadfire's scripted interactions, this is sometimes possible in the form of, for example, "You check if the rope is secure", but of course the designer can't prepare in advance for everything that comes to the player's mind.

That's why I said PoE/Deadfire do a better job, compared to the IE games, at being a PnP gameplay adaptation. Whereas the IE games only adapted the combat, and not even all of the combat (or they would be turnbased) but the calculations for combat resolution.
 
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If Fallout/2 was made today, you wouldn't be able to use science on every computer you encounter. There would just be a few computers throughout the world you'd be able to interact with that are clearly marked as such. Every other computer would be a non-interactable terminal that your character knows through some fifth sense has no valuable information without checking it.

I don't consider this good design or moving in a better direction.
 

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3. The least often encountered outcome - your combination works, and you get that "good rpg feeling".
If it always worked, you'd never get that feeling. That's exactly what the storybook design does, it just points you exactly where to go and gives you a list of options to pick from.
Not necessarily. In Deadfire, depending on your game preferences settings, you can choose to hide the dialogue/scripted interactions options, for which your character is not qualified. Just yesterday I thought that a quest just has one solution, and when I checked the wiki, I found that I could have solved it in one different way, for which I could be qualified by three different conditions. One was a combination of two skills which needed to be raiset to a given level, an alternative condition was one other skill plus one character background, and the third alternative was one skill but at a pretty high level. I saw neither of these options in my dialogue. :)

I think the issue is that if you had the required skill combination or levels, then presumably the option to use it in such and such a way would be displayed to you, whereas in the design of a game like Fallout, you'd still have to determine that that you were likely able to use the skill and decide to use it as opposed to being presented with it as an option. It's a subtle point, but basically the distinction is whether the first thought about how to approach the issue is coming from the player or from a discrete list of options being presented to you.
 

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But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'. And the parley dialogue is a another storybook exercise.

That's overly broad. It's like saying any physical obstacle is reduce hp to 0 if you end up destroying it in any manner, or a storybook exercise if you use some other manner of bypassing it or engage in any dialog. It's like saying I win this argument because everything in the world is categorized as either this thing or that thing, no matter how much of a stretch.

Pretty sure there is a lot of similarity between a wooden barrel blocking a bridge and a troll blocking a bridge.

Not many barrels try to initiate combat with you and not many trolls can be climbed over, for instance. But sure, hurr durr reduce hp to 0.
 

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If Fallout/2 was made today, you wouldn't be able to use science on every computer you encounter. There would just be a few computers throughout the world you'd be able to interact with that are clearly marked as such. Every other computer would be a non-interactable terminal that your character knows through some fifth sense has no valuable information without checking it.

I don't consider this good design or moving in a better direction.
Yes, and what's the most horrible is the PR hypocricy that this is done to improve the fun experience, while it's just down to budget limitations, actually limiting the fun experience.
 

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3. The least often encountered outcome - your combination works, and you get that "good rpg feeling".
If it always worked, you'd never get that feeling. That's exactly what the storybook design does, it just points you exactly where to go and gives you a list of options to pick from.
Not necessarily. In Deadfire, depending on your game preferences settings, you can choose to hide the dialogue/scripted interactions options, for which your character is not qualified. Just yesterday I thought that a quest just has one solution, and when I checked the wiki, I found that I could have solved it in one different way, for which I could be qualified by three different conditions. One was a combination of two skills which needed to be raiset to a given level, an alternative condition was one other skill plus one character background, and the third alternative was one skill but at a pretty high level. I saw neither of these options in my dialogue. :)

I think the issue is that if you had the required skill combination or levels, then presumably the option to use it in such and such a way would be displayed to you, whereas in the design of a game like Fallout, you'd still have to determine that that you were likely able to use the skill and decide to use it as opposed to being presented with it as an option. It's a subtle point, but basically the distinction is whether the first thought about how to approach the issue is coming from the player or from a discrete list of options being presented to you.
I'd liken that to the "roll a skill check" in D&D. When you have inexperienced players who wouldn't come up with things by themselves, you can even ask them proactively to roll a skill check, and potentially tell them what their character noticed.
 
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3. The least often encountered outcome - your combination works, and you get that "good rpg feeling".
If it always worked, you'd never get that feeling. That's exactly what the storybook design does, it just points you exactly where to go and gives you a list of options to pick from.
Not necessarily. In Deadfire, depending on your game preferences settings, you can choose to hide the dialogue/scripted interactions options, for which your character is not qualified. Just yesterday I thought that a quest just has one solution, and when I checked the wiki, I found that I could have solved it in one different way, for which I could be qualified by three different conditions. One was a combination of two skills which needed to be raiset to a given level, an alternative condition was one other skill plus one character background, and the third alternative was one skill but at a pretty high level. I saw neither of these options in my dialogue. :)
I don't consider having more dialogue options to be the same. I see them as completely perpendicular to the argument I'm making, as dialogue is just another tool for solving problems.
If your point is that you shouldn't even be able to see dialogue options you don't qualify for by default -- I agree and consider this to be some sort of metagaming. I'm not sure exactly when this got popular(FNV perhaps?), but I don't like it. I'd prefer if it exists to be opt-in as it would be interesting to see for a second playthrough.

Dialogue options as typically used take too much agency away from the player. I found Age of Decadence(an otherwise good game) to be a decent example to pick on for this. If the character is actively doing something, it's perhaps better to question if this should be a dialogue choice.
 
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Another favorite of mine is when you can heal wounded NPCs that exist in the world without being prompted to and the game actually acknowledges it or even allows you to do it. I'm always surprised when you can't despite how much more common that is than being allowed to, it's one of the first things I'd do in a tabletop RPG in a similar situation.

I'm pretty sure I first encountered this in Shadows of Undrentide and have tried to do it in every RPG I've played since where the situation comes up. IIRC you get rewarded in some way if you heal the wounded people in the town hall or whatever it was, but I don't think the game specifically tells or even asks you to do it.
 

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I don't consider having more dialogue options to be the same. I see them as completely perpendicular to the argument I'm making, as dialogue is just another tool for solving problems.
At its core, dialogue is a tool for navigating a chain of evaluated expressions :) (if-else blocks)

Whether you use this chain to simulate dialogue or skill checks is a secondary thing.
 

Parabalus

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But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'. And the parley dialogue is a another storybook exercise.

That's overly broad. It's like saying any physical obstacle is reduce hp to 0 if you end up destroying it in any manner, or a storybook exercise if you use some other manner of bypassing it or engage in any dialog. It's like saying I win this argument because everything in the world is categorized as either this thing or that thing, no matter how much of a stretch.

Pretty sure there is a lot of similarity between a wooden barrel blocking a bridge and a troll blocking a bridge.

Not many barrels try to initiate combat with you and not many trolls can be climbed over, for instance. But sure, hurr durr reduce hp to 0.

In D:OS terms you can teleport over both.

Fact is both of these are easier for a freeform system to deal with than proper interaction.
 

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I understand why you would want something different rusty but your whole convo with Parabalus comes off as a good impression of what happens in design processes when you decide to reinvent the wheel. You waste a lot of effort on something that ends up being worse than you had to begin with
 

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I don't consider having more dialogue options to be the same. I see them as completely perpendicular to the argument I'm making, as dialogue is just another tool for solving problems.
At its core, dialogue is a tool for navigating a chain of evaluated expressions :) (if-else blocks)

Whether you use this chain to simulate dialogue or skill checks is a secondary thing.
Continuing from that, in essence we are arguing over input methods. You'd like RPGs to be more like the text-based adventure games, instead of a CYOA hyperlinked structure.

I guess we're coming closer to the technology to allow that, only that today's gamers would probably prefer to speak directly to the game instead of typing, but that's just a matter of adding a speech engine. Ultimately the voice will be converted to text. But this text will still have to be mapped to a pre-designed action the character performs.

I don't know if you've ever checked out this GTA V mod: https://www.lcpdfr.com/lspdfr/index/ It's compatible with MS' speech engine, resulting in the cop-larping player being able to speak commands to NPCs, in vehicle or on foot. I found it quite fun, though I couldn't overcome the embarassment to use it while there are others at home :lol:
 

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But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'. And the parley dialogue is a another storybook exercise.

That's overly broad. It's like saying any physical obstacle is reduce hp to 0 if you end up destroying it in any manner, or a storybook exercise if you use some other manner of bypassing it or engage in any dialog. It's like saying I win this argument because everything in the world is categorized as either this thing or that thing, no matter how much of a stretch.

Pretty sure there is a lot of similarity between a wooden barrel blocking a bridge and a troll blocking a bridge.

Not many barrels try to initiate combat with you and not many trolls can be climbed over, for instance. But sure, hurr durr reduce hp to 0.

In D:OS terms you can teleport over both.

Fact is both of these are easier for a freeform system to deal with than proper interaction.

Teleport reduces hp to 0? Did you lose the thread of your own argument or are you simply disingenuous for the sake of trying to score internet points?
 

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I'd prefer if it exists to be opt-in as it would be interesting to see for a second playthrough
In Deadfire hiding these non-qualified responses is a setting in the options. You can have them displayed but non-clickable.

Dialogue options as typically used take too much agency away from the player. I found Age of Decadence(an otherwise good game) to be a decent example to pick on for this. If the character is actively doing something, it's perhaps better to question if this should be a dialogue choice.
I agree AoD could have only been better if most all of the "cool things" you can do weren't functioning through the dialogue interface, but that was obviously done for economy. Like I said, budget limitations.
 
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I understand why you would want something different rusty but your whole convo with Parabalus comes off as a good impression of what happens in design processes when you decide to reinvent the wheel. You waste a lot of effort on something that ends up being worse than you had to begin with
I don't see how it's worse, unless you think Deus Ex is worse than a CYOA book I guess.
 

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I don't consider having more dialogue options to be the same. I see them as completely perpendicular to the argument I'm making, as dialogue is just another tool for solving problems.
At its core, dialogue is a tool for navigating a chain of evaluated expressions :) (if-else blocks)

Whether you use this chain to simulate dialogue or skill checks is a secondary thing.
Continuing from that, in essence we are arguing over input methods. You'd like RPGs to be more like the text-based adventure games, instead of a CYOA hyperlinked structure.

I guess we're coming closer to the technology to allow that, only that today's gamers would probably prefer to speak directly to the game instead of typing, but that's just a matter of adding a speech engine. Ultimately the voice will be converted to text. But this text will still have to be mapped to a pre-designed action the character performs.

I don't know if you've ever checked out this GTA V mod: https://www.lcpdfr.com/lspdfr/index/ It's compatible with MS' speech engine, resulting in the cop-larping player being able to speak commands to NPCs, in vehicle or on foot. I found it quite fun, though I couldn't overcome the embarassment to use it while there are others at home :lol:

 

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Frankly, the gameplay flow in the mod improves immensly. Wihout the speech engine, there is a command menu with a complex tree structure. It is even better than most voice-based human interaction over IP, where you spend the first two minutes asking each other if the other one can hear you or commenting on the sound and picture quality :D

Ingame, people tend to understand you perfectly if you larp a cop reasonably well, meaning you give loud, clear and simple commands.
 
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Parabalus

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But a wooden blockade is another instance of 'reduce hp to 0 to proceed'. And the parley dialogue is a another storybook exercise.

That's overly broad. It's like saying any physical obstacle is reduce hp to 0 if you end up destroying it in any manner, or a storybook exercise if you use some other manner of bypassing it or engage in any dialog. It's like saying I win this argument because everything in the world is categorized as either this thing or that thing, no matter how much of a stretch.

Pretty sure there is a lot of similarity between a wooden barrel blocking a bridge and a troll blocking a bridge.

Not many barrels try to initiate combat with you and not many trolls can be climbed over, for instance. But sure, hurr durr reduce hp to 0.

In D:OS terms you can teleport over both.

Fact is both of these are easier for a freeform system to deal with than proper interaction.

Teleport reduces hp to 0? Did you lose the thread of your own argument or are you simply disingenuous for the sake of trying to score internet points?

You put them into the category of 'physical obstacle' yourself. Why pretend there are differences between them bigger than 'troll fights back'?

This category is where freeform systems shine with their emergent gameplay.
 

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I crossed 400 hours in Deadfire two days ago on GOG Galaxy. Don't know how much I've played it without Galaxy. For PoE, the number that I seem to recall is 325-350.
 

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I don't consider having more dialogue options to be the same. I see them as completely perpendicular to the argument I'm making, as dialogue is just another tool for solving problems.
At its core, dialogue is a tool for navigating a chain of evaluated expressions :) (if-else blocks)

Whether you use this chain to simulate dialogue or skill checks is a secondary thing.
Continuing from that, in essence we are arguing over input methods. You'd like RPGs to be more like the text-based adenture games, instead of a CYOA hyperlinked structure.

I dunno if you're only discussing preference, you're also discussing feasability and priorities seems to me. And I feel like often the Codex will discuss two things in isolation debating the merits of either without ever looking at the thing relative to the genre itself (a good example is difficulty, where 'dexers will often say something is "isn't hard" but if you follow their line of thinking it turns out they think all RPGs aren't hard so their statement about that specific game is useless in terms of finding out if it's easy or hard relative to other games).

Let's take rusty's healing-someone-in-the-world example. To make a game that generally "works like that" you have to utilize a dedicated and expansive development effort to make sure all the assets of your systems that *aren't* dialogue (or at least, enough for it to feel like a way to interact with the game) can be used in a logical manner. You have to:

1) Design abilities, stats and skills around this
2) Always have it in mind/check for it when you look at "stuff in your world" (e.g. someone who needs healing)

Additionally, all instances of this require unique coding and development effort, or at least the time it requires to figure out "ok how do I do *insert interaction* without additional coding. Use a fire spell to cut down trees, use wind to blow the sails of a boat, use a jump spell to jump through a window, use gust of wind to delight a torch; all these things require different approaches to how the thing is actually implemented in the game.

Meanwhile, solving it through dialogue is a simple matter of CHECK FOR STAT/SKILL/ABILITY->ENABLE DIALOGUE STRING. So you can completely streamline the entire development processes around this. Obviously this means more interactions with less development effort.

Now, the question isn't necessarily: is one of these systems better than the other? It is also: is it good enough to warrant the additional development effort AND if so, what should be less prioritized than today?

I thought Darklands and to an extend PoE and Deadfire got it right with the CYOA-stuff. Expand how these kinds of systems can enable interaction and role-playing instead of spending your time on sim-stuff. Sim-stuff will always ruin your day because it's a ton of effort for very little gain that will be experienced by exponentially less players than the alternatives (because you have to "guess" a developer's intent or what interactions they allow for, since inevitably a lot of logical interactions won't be in the game).

Lastly, I feel like sim-systems always end up feeling even MORE constraining than abstract dialogue-stuff, for exactly the same reason GTA and Skyrim aren't very immersive to me. When you go for 360 degree verisimilitude you draw more attention to the things that don't work like they should (in our discussion, interactions that seem obvious to you but that the developers didn't bother to implement). Whereas in games that realize they are pixels and not real life you don't expect the game to suddenly explain why something doesn't work like it should, you already waived that part of the fiction contract.

unless you think Deus Ex is worse than a CYOA book I guess.

I don't think you're going to get games with the necessary budgets to make Deus Ex + turn-based open world RPG.

It sounds like a great game. But a game with a budget that it wouldn't be able to deliver on considering the audience for such a thing.
 
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Having to design a reaction to every possible interaction is as silly as saying all dialogue options that anyone can think of must be presented to the player for a dialogue tree to work.
Let's take rusty's healing-someone-in-the-world example. To make a game that generally "works like that" you have to utilize a dedicated and expansive development effort to make sure all the assets of your systems that *aren't* dialogue (or at least, enough for it to feel like a way to interact with the game) can be used in a logical manner. You have to:

1) Design abilities, stats and skills around this
2) Always have it in mind/check for it when you look at "stuff in your world" (e.g. someone who needs healing)

To make a game that generally "works like that", they literally just have to do what the game I referenced did.
Do you think it took some dedicated, 300 person engineering team to write a script to check if the injured people are healed? Just think of things people would normally do and watch what your playertesters try to do.
Additionally, all instances of this require unique coding and development effort, or at least the time it requires to figure out "ok how do I do *insert interaction* without additional coding*. Use a fire spell to cut down trees, use wind to blow the sails of a boat, use a jump spell to jump through a window, use gust of wind to delight a torch; all these things require different approaches to how the thing is actually implemented in the game.

Meanwhile, solving it through dialogue is a simple matter of CHECK FOR STAT/SKILL/ABILITY->ENABLE DIALOGUE STRING. So you can completely streamline the entire development processes around this.
If I wanted to read a book, I'd go read a book. What's the point of playing a videogame where the designers & developers can't even be bothered to design and implement content?

If I had some dialogue choice that just said "yea heal those people", I would have never remembered doing it. I would have forgotten it within a week, I wouldn't be remembering it nearly 20 years later.
 

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