KickStarter Poll - Best Tomb Raider

[Ash]

Shut up you retarded little cunt. Again, worst poster on the Codex, and consistently wrong again and again. Yes sure, Tomb Raider is an atmosphere simulator with zero merit as a game, because you say so. Despite not playing it, nor even being alive at the time.

 

[Unreal]

Either stop reading my posts or stop ignoring me, having it both ways makes you look crybaby bitch, because you absolutely are, and saying retarded shit like ‘BRUH U WERENT EVEN ALIVE HURR DURR’ only makes that worse.

I never said the game had no merit, that's your words. It's not a game to play primarily for ‘gameplay’, because it simply isn't the kind of game to play for the ‘gameplay’. If you don't understand, well, too bad. Games like this are made more with the intent to be simulations of ideas than otherwise. It's the Half-Life of platformers. The game still has merit because it's a video game, and video games aren't just games, they're also art (of the popular-culture kind). So was the case with Unreal, which you shat all over like a retard by adding a bunch of extraneous, useless crap, and filling every level with every enemy just because muh gameplay. And likewise with Quake, which is also now getting your signature modshitting, and it's even worse. You don't have any sense of what makes these games valuable.

 

[Ash]

Again, biggest fucking retard. It's cute you think you are better than me when you're the dumbest little shit I've had the pleasure of interacting with on here. Do you seriously think John Romero was all about atmosphere and gaming as an artform and other OMG such 2deep4u concepts that led to the great decline? No, he was a gameplayfag, as most game designers worth their salt are. You grew up playing adventure games and its given you pseudo-intellectual delusions of grandeur and brain rot. More likely it's just genetic defect given you're also a furry. You can't apply that mentality to games that were about gunning down demons, having LAN competitions, and the creation of entertainment. Quake and Unreal aren't atmosphere simulators or artistic adventure games, dipshit. They're gameplay-centric videogames.

 

[Unreal]

No designer of anything in the past was a fag of any kind, it's just you. You're a retard who's been jaded by bad fake-Hollywood Xbox 360 games. So what? I guess you really are using your ignore list, since you're ignoring everything I said to instead accuse me of liking some shitty kind of games I've never even played. You don't actually have any idea what I'm talking about, and all you're posting is drivel. Yeah, game designers were totally gameplayfags, that's why they kept wasting their time aspiring to simulate entire worlds instead of just making interactive spreadsheets, derp. Graphics are just there to look pretty, and mechanics and levels are created in a vacuum where no setting or story or feelings of any kind can touch them. Except, in reality, games aren't just mechanics. The overall experience is what matters most, which has nothing to do with pretentious non-games.

The point of a game like Tomb Raider is tomb raiding, it's not about awkwardly stumbling around with tank controls and delayed jumping, not is it about resource management. Doom would be an entirely pointless and worthless game if no care was put into giving it quality presentation and a real sense of adventure, despite the abstract nature of its design. I mean, if Romero were such a gameplayfag, then why did he run off to make a terrible game that prioritized its nonsensical concepts over sensible gameplay? It seems he's rather just a lolbecauseitscoolfag who was also skilled at level design and programming. That's the actual kind of attitude all those old action games were made with. Stop fagging for either ‘side’ and just admit that games are everything that they are.

Also, Unreal's setting and atmosphere was a very high priority in that game, you have to be utterly blind and deaf and stupid to say otherwise. It just so happens to be that it's the kind of atmosphere that involves combat. Those things aren't exclusive, they're actually expected to be together.

 

[Ash]

Stop fagging for either ‘side’ and just admit that games are everything that they are.

I am a "everything that they are" type of person; story, atmosphere, immersion, art, audio. All valuable. You would know this if you were actually familiar with my work or read my posts a little more attentively. However gameplay simply comes first. If not, it's not much a game and should be recognized as such. Gameplay is solely what makes games unique and prioritization of it was sensibly the standard that the vast majority of games abided by in the 70s, 80s & 90s. Even simulation type games, they were often not creating simulations for simulation's sake, but for the interesting gameplay that resulted from it. dynamic gameplay, emergent gameplay, logical interactions that get logical results. freedom & player expression.
You really think if I shortsightedly only considered gameplay in a vacuum my Deus Ex mod would be so beloved on the Codex? No, immersion, graphics, audio, atmosphere and everything else were all big considerations and undertakings in that mod. Didn't touch story directly because I don't consider myself qualified to do so, nor it being something that even needs any messing with. Unreal too I considered all those things, though to a lesser extent because e.g the game doesn't demand simulation design or audio design work to anywhere near the degree Deus Ex did.
I'd like to think people here have higher standards than lavishing praise upon a shortsighted mod for one of the greatest classics of all time. Higher on average standards among gamers is why I am even on this forum. You and certain others are dragging the standards down unfortunately.

I pick gameplay's side because someone needs to in this clown world where golden standards have been thrown out the window. And it is what makes the medium unique, and also is what has regressed the most. Gameplay regression was the natural path the game industry (as an industry running on money and greed always winning in the end) would take nonetheless though, the 90s could never last. Complex, challenging, attention-demanding gameplay is simply antithetical to mass market consumption. Doesn't mean I don't miss it very much so and wish things were different.

Stop being a little weirdo.

 

[Unreal]

I know you always like to say that, but if that's really the case, then it just means that you have poor taste. When it comes to actually making your mods, you don't know a single thing. Quake Combat Minus makes that even more blatant. And if you really were that smart, you'd not be picking sides, because there's actually no sides to pick. But go ahead and pretend to have high standards, idiot.


Anyway. I played half of the first game, but find it quite tedious and didn't finish it because I put it off too long and ended up losing the save. It's the kind of game that's neither fun to play nor a particularly interesting challenge, and neither are the visuals and story much that would make up for it, but I think it gave an appropriate sense of the experience it wanted to be despite all that. That's where the value of the game comes from. And yes, the controls are too awkward, don't complain about casuals ruining gaming, they're a pain to use and that's a fact. But people should also still just get over it and deal with it.

I'll vote for the original, since originals are objectively always best.

 

[Lemming42]

The gameplay in Tomb Raider is about navigating a 3D environment, and it's great. The first game can often appear quite simple to a modern audience but it's about having this simple yet extremely effective control scheme that allows you to interact with the environment in consistent and predictable ways, and using these tools to move through each level, exploring as much as you can to find secrets and items necessary to proceed. It's about looking in all directions and planning your route - the Sphinx room from TR1 is the best example I can think of, where the player must engage with the fully 3D world by using the camera to look all around and try to plot a route that will be possible to climb to reach the door in the upper corner. This was all pretty new at the time, there aren't really any other games that I can think of before it that offer the same level of full 3D exploration (Descent, maybe?). Mario 64 in the same year offers another model of how to let a player interact with a totally 3D environment for the first time, although I'd argue Tomb Raider's method was a hell of a lot better.

Things moved fast back then so the devs had to act quick to come up with new gameplay features for the sequels - Tomb Raider blew people away in 1996 but by the time of TR2 there were many more full 3D games and even Tomb Raider imitators. Their solution in TR2 was to make environments more complex (good), add more combat gameplay (mostly bad), and add a snowmobile segment (pretty good).

People complaining about the controls in Tomb Raider winds me up in the same way as people saying Fallout's interface is too hard to understand. Literally 2 - 3 minutes of learning is all you need to grasp either. Tomb Raider's controls are great because they work so well with the levels - everything's made of cubes and tiles, and the controls work with that. You know that you will always be able to grab any ledge consisting of the edge of a cube, you know the distance you'll be able to clear with a standing jump from the very edge of a cube, and you know that you'll need one full tile's worth of space to perform a running jump. This consistency lets the devs create interesting challenges for you which require you to recognise which moves will be appropriate under which circumstances. Compare with the new games where you just automatically magnetise onto whatever shit the devs have arbitrarily decided is grabbable.

 

[Semiurge]

it's not about awkwardly stumbling around with tank controls and delayed jumping

There's nothing awkward about them, they're precise and graceful.

The gameplay in Tomb Raider is about navigating a 3D environment. The first game can often appear quite simple to a modern audience but it's about having this simple yet extremely effective control scheme that allows you to interact with the environment in consistent and predictable ways, and using these tools to move through each level, exploring as much as you can to find secrets and items necessary to proceed. It's about looking in all directions and planning your route - the Sphinx room from TR1 is the best example I can think of, where the player must engage with the fully 3D world by using the camera to look all around and try to plot a route that will be possible to climb to reach the door in the upper corner. This was all pretty new at the time, there aren't really any other games that I can think of before it that offer the same level of full 3D exploration. Mario 64 in the same year offers another model of how to let a player interact with a totally 3D environment for the first time, although I'd argue Tomb Raider's method was a hell of a lot better.

Things moved fast back then so the devs had to act quick to come up with new gameplay features for the sequels - Tomb Raider blew people away in 1996 but by the time of TR2 there were many more full 3D games and even Tomb Raider imitators. Their solution in TR2 was to make environments more complex (good), add more combat gameplay (mostly bad), and add a snowmobile segment (pretty good).

It's a sidescroller with an extra dimension.

 

[Unreal]

it's not about awkwardly stumbling around with tank controls and delayed jumping

There's nothing awkward about them, they're precise and graceful.

Precise, but not graceful. It seems the idea was to make movement more ‘realistic’ and require more deliberate and careful platforming, but in the end all it makes you do is wish you could walk like a normal human being. Why should I even want to explore anything when all of it is such a tedious commitment? The environments are also very weak. So actually this game kind of sucks. But at least it's cool to think about after the fact, or something. I've played games like that, I don't really mind, I don't really care, they're enjoyable for what they are, but it's still just a bunch of mediocrity.

 

[Lemming42]

It's taken 25 years (which is probably about double Unreal's age), but at last, Unreal's verdict is in. The gaming community (or what's left of it) falls to a hushed silence - this is moment we've been waiting for.

"I only played some of the original Tomb Raider,", he begins. The Earth itself seems to quiet down, as if to try and hear him better. The crowd look on in awed reverence. He continues: "and it was very tedious." The crowd gasp. "The environments are also very weak." People begin opening their copies of Tomb Raider and snapping the CDs in half. Some even burn them. "But at least it's cool to think about after the fact, or something," the maestro adds. The crowd cheer.

Do Crazy Taxi next.

 

[Semiurge]

but in the end all it makes you do is wish you could walk like a normal human being.

What's wrong with the walking? You did know that it is a possibility?

 

[Unreal]

It's taken 25 years (which is probably about double Unreal's age), but at last, Unreal's verdict is in. The gaming community (or what's left of it) falls to a hushed silence - this is moment we've been waiting for.

"I only played some of the original Tomb Raider,", he begins. The Earth itself seems to quiet down, as if to try and hear him better. The crowd look on in awed reverence. He continues: "and it was very tedious." The crowd gasp. "The environments are also very weak." People begin opening their copies of Tomb Raider and snapping the CDs in half. Some even burn them. "But at least it's cool to think about after the fact, or something," the maestro adds. The crowd cheer.

Do Crazy Taxi next.

meanwhile in lemmingland: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/burgers.140676/

 

[Neuromancer]

People complaining about the controls in Tomb Raider winds me up in the same way as people saying Fallout's interface is too hard to understand. Literally 2 - 3 minutes of learning is all you need to grasp either.

There is even interactive tutorial level to learn the controls one by one.
So this shouldn't pose a problem at all.

 

[Lemming42]

meanwhile in lemmingland: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/burgers.140676/

The crowd cheer as Unreal delivers his final verdict on the 1996 classic. "I've played games like that, I don't really mind, I don't really care, they're enjoyable for what they are, but it's still just a bunch of mediocrity."

As the crowd enter an almost hysterical state of euphoria, one man, his eyes glowing blue under the darkness of his red hood, stands. The modern day equivalent of the man who wouldn't salute Hitler.

"The controls are pretty easy to learn, actually," he says. The crowd turn to him, as if sharing one mind, their eyes filled with hate. He continues, undeterred: "People complaining about the controls in Tomb Raider winds me up in the same way as people saying Fallout's interface is too hard to understand. Literally 2 - 3 minutes of learning is all you need to grasp either."

It's unthinkable, but the crowd now turn back to Unreal, glaring at him, their eyes pleading. Surely the fursuit-clad master can't have been wrong? "Please, Unreal," one woman whispers, the moistness in her crotch area getting drier by the minute as her champion's credibility begins to unravel before her eyes. "Please, tell us you've got a way out of this."

Sweat soaks Unreal's brow, a product of a lethal combination of not showering for three weeks, being stuck inside a homemade, cumstained fursuit (the zip broke off), and the pressure being put on him by this mysterious stranger in the crowd. His hands shake, his heart beats faster.

"Th...that's Lemming42!" he shouts, a chubby finger pointed towards the heroic stranger. The crowd gasp, turning to the man. Unreal pauses, ready to deliver his smoking gun. "He made a post the other day in a dying politics subforum on a moribund site about how he doesn't care what an imaginary kid in a Twix advert is wearing!"

The crowd, reassured in the faith of their leader, cheer wildly. Some even begin a strange bisexual orgy of decadence, pouring a mixture of wine and what appears to be human blood over their naked bodies. Unreal sits back, pleased, as the crowd begin to physically tear Lemming42 apart like scenes from Day of the Dead.

 

[Unreal]

That's one of the unfunniest Tumblr posts I've ever read. Maybe you should try stop putting boys in dresses and think for once.


The interesting part of the gameplay is exploring and learning to navigate new areas, and for that the platforming is fine... until you inevitably die and have to do it all again. At that point the mild entertainment the game could offer is already gone and you're just wasting time until you reach the next checkpoint. It's not especially hard, but even just one mistake is already too frustrating. I know a bunch of you retards will be like ‘HURR DURR GITGUD SAVESCUMMER LOL’, but your opinions don't actually matter. Checkpoints only work in arcadey Japanese weeaboo games, not some slow-paced simulative Westard overrated trash game. Either make the actual act of moving inherently fun, or just don't waste everyone's time. Also look at those shitty Saturn graphics, lol.

 

[Lemming42]

That's one of the unfunniest Tumblr posts I've ever read.

The Tumblr post connoisseur speaks. I don't know how many Tumblr posts you've read to end up in this state, but it's got to be a frightening amount, so I'll take your word for it.

The interesting part of the gameplay is exploring and learning to navigate new areas, and for that the platforming is fine... until you inevitably die and have to do it all again. At that point the mild entertainment the game could offer is already gone and you're just wasting time until you reach the next checkpoint. It's not especially hard, but even just one mistake is already too frustrating. I know a bunch of you retards will be like ‘HURR DURR GITGUD SAVESCUMMER LOL’, but your opinions don't actually matter. Checkpoints only work in arcadey Japanese weeaboo games, not some slow-paced simulative Westard overrated trash game. Either make the actual act of moving inherently fun, or just don't waste everyone's time. Also look at those shitty Saturn graphics, lol.

The revelation that you were playing the Saturn version is a comedy plot twist funnier than any sitcom has ever pulled off. No wonder you couldn't finish it - can't see shit and it has the save crystal system which most TR fans agree sucks balls. Might as well have been playing the Nokia N-Gage version. The PS1 version is solid but you'd be best off on PC, where you can make infinite saves to safeguard yourself from throwing the toys out of the pram when you die through a botched jump of your own design, and also get better graphics except for the loss of the beloved reflective gold effect.

The game rewards methodical play (which isn't the same thing as slow-paced, which isn't a term I'd use for Tomb Raider, especially not after the first game). Moving is fun, because when you make any significantly complex move, it's typically the result of you planning ahead. Tomb Raider's gameplay essentially boils down to three different things: it's either about plotting your route and then executing the moves necessary to accomplish it (Egypt has tons of this), or it's about reacting fast to unexpected obstacles, or it's about entering a new area and analysing it quickly to see where threats and paths forward are.

Even as a kid playing it on PS1, I think the only time I ever got genuinely pissed at it was in St Francis Folly, where the save crystal system is unusually harsh and the crumbling central tower structure, while very fun to navigate at first, has plenty of punishing ways to fuck up and fall to your death, often resulting in a major loss of progress. Other than that, there's not really anything that should piss you off unless you're constantly failing every other jump somehow, perhaps by being so incensed by a halloween-themed Twix advert that you can't focus on mastering the control scheme that millions of 12 year olds were able to grasp almost immediately back in 1996.

 

[Unreal]

The revelation that you were playing the Saturn version is a comedy plot twist funnier than any sitcom has ever pulled off. No wonder you couldn't finish it - can't see shit and it has the save crystal system which most TR fans agree sucks balls. Might as well have been playing the Nokia N-Gage version. The PS1 version is solid but you'd be best off on PC, where you can make infinite saves to safeguard yourself from throwing the toys out of the pram when you die through a botched jump of your own design, and also get better graphics except for the loss of the beloved reflective gold effect.

The game rewards methodical play (which isn't the same thing as slow-paced, which isn't a term I'd use for Tomb Raider, especially not after the first game). Moving is fun, because when you make any significantly complex move, it's typically the result of you planning ahead. Tomb Raider's gameplay essentially boils down to three different things: it's either about plotting your route and then executing the moves necessary to accomplish it (Egypt has tons of this), or it's about reacting fast to unexpected obstacles, or it's about entering a new area and analysing it quickly to see where threats and paths forward are.

Even as a kid playing it on PS1, I think the only time I ever got genuinely pissed at it was in St Francis Folly, where the save crystal system is unusually harsh and the crumbling central tower structure, while very fun to navigate at first, has plenty of punishing ways to fuck up and fall to your death, often resulting in a major loss of progress. Other than that, there's not really anything that should piss you off unless you're constantly failing every other jump somehow, perhaps by being so incensed by a halloween-themed Twix advert that you can't focus on mastering the control scheme that millions of 12 year olds were able to grasp almost immediately back in 1996.

Lol, it's Saturn graphics in any version because it's a Saturn game. I was playing the PSX version, because I play console games on consoles. Of course the game is super easy and unfrustrating if you can quick-save everywhere, but I refuse to play a PC port when I can emulate it better. Most deaths come from surprise enemies and special hazards, not general platforming, and certainly not your unfunny jokes. Of course I could just use save-states, but my emulator, Xebra, makes that inconvenient. (Yes, I use Xebra. No, I don't care about your Mednafens and RetardArchs, keep that shit away from me.)

I think I'll give that Saturn version a try you dumbfuck NPC trolololololo

 

[Lemming42]

Lol, it's Saturn graphics in any version because it's a Saturn game. I was playing the PSX version, because I play console games on consoles. Of course the game is super easy and unfrustrating if you can quick-save everywhere, but I refuse to play a PC port when I can emulate it better. Most deaths come from surprise enemies and special hazards, not general platforming, and certainly not your unfunny jokes.

I think I'll give that Saturn version a try you dumbfuck NPC trolololololo

I'm afraid the PC version is likely your only hope, Unreal. The PC version's save-anywhere system will save you from the heartwrenching stress of being punished for dying in a videogame, and will save readers of this thread from hearing about it. It'll probably somehow go wrong anyway - maybe you'd use just one save slot, and end up saving in mid-air while experiencing a fatal fall. Naturally this would be the devs' fault, or possibly Ash's fault for making an Unreal mod.

There are one or two instances of "surprise enemies and special hazards" that cross the line into being bullshit, but most can be survived through quick thinking and action on the player's part. Even still, I think the PC version is the best way to play the game. The save crystal system in the console versions does have certain advantages and produces some incredibly tense moments at times, but ultimately I think it's a game that benefits from the player deciding for themselves where the checkpoints should be. As with any game with a quicksave system, it just requires the self-control to avoid the temptation to save every other step. I also always found the keyboard controls more intuitive than the PS1 controller somehow, but everyone's going to have a different take on that.

For real, you should re-launch that reviews thread you made a while ago and check out the N-Gage version, which is an unbelievably unpleasant way to play the game (although still somehow excellent by N-Gage standards). You'd go blind from the retina-shredding graphics but that's part of the fun. I think it has a save-anywhere system, but that's necessary because nothing works properly.

 

[Unreal]

I'm sure they'd be quite relieved for me to stop posting, but only because they'd no longer have to suffer you being a smug little faggot.

 

[Lemming42]

Because of blindness? You can keep posting, just take extra care to ensure the right tab is open. Otherwise the Codex will be flooded with animal scat porn, while the denizens of FurAffinity would be "treated" to a multi-paragraph rant about how the incorrect placement of a chair prop in the 2012 release of Black Mesa made the game literally unplayable.

 

[SumDrunkGuy]

Looks like I have another head to live rent free in. Eh Jacob? Hows it feel to have me droppin deuces in your head? You like that stink, pusscake?

 

[Unreal]

Because of blindness? You can keep posting, just take extra care to ensure the right tab is open. Otherwise the Codex will be flooded with animal scat porn, while the denizens of FurAffinity would be "treated" to a multi-paragraph rant about how the incorrect placement of a chair prop in the 2012 release of Black Mesa made the game literally unplayable.

That'd at least be better than posting shit in every tab the way you do.

‘You don't like Black Mesa? It must be autism, hehe!’

‘You had trouble playing a game like Turd Raider for the very first time? Well obviously it'd be easy if you played the entire game before so you're dumb lol!’

‘You have complaints? I think I'll just quote it and write a retarded unfunny ‘‘comedy’’ scene around it like the jew that I am, lmao!’

‘I don't get, what's so bad about dressing up little boys in dresses? Actually it's anti-trans when you think about it, you dumb right-wingers trololololo!’

It would have just been better if you called me a crybaby bitch and told me to go back and play Tomb Raider RIGHT NOW and not come back until it's finished. That's what a real man would do (no homo).

 

[Lemming42]

There's not any medication you've forgotten to take today, is there?

It would have just been better if you called me a crybaby bitch and told me to go back and play Tomb Raider RIGHT NOW and not come back until it's finished. That's what a real man would do (no homo).

I told you, play and review the N-Gage version. Your life will never be the same, guaranteed. It's a nightmare made real.

 

[Jacob]

Man up, little boy. I was reading this thread and simply rated the posts appropriately. You're not important in any way. You're just a shitposter.

 

[Unreal]

Actually didn't read most of this thread until now. Seems like there was a lot of fun discussion since the beginning.