Arkane PREY - Arkane's immersive coffee cup transformation sim - now with Mooncrash roguelike mode DLC

[Israfael]

The Huntress Boltcaster is a dinky useless waste of plastic. This post brought to you by Remote Manipulation + Leverage III gang.

You need 0 resources to obtain the x-bow and some darts for it, while you need to consume lots of level-up kits (as well as mana) for you silly majix or Gunther-style implants

 

[Rarre]

THX guys for the comments! I will try the CORE balance mod

 

[Morgoth]

lol the anti-balance crowd strikes again. Go play Bioshock if you want gameplay to have no strategy, challenge, interesting conflicting choices and about twenty other downsides as a result of zero balance you fucking casuals.

Bioshock did all these things just as good as Prey with less. Your Mod, while admirable, changes nothing.

 

[Israfael]

Go play Bioshock if you want gameplay to have no strategy, challenge, interesting conflicting choices and about twenty other downsides as a result of zero balance you fucking casuals.

Are immersive sims renowned for their difficulty rather than the toolkit to solve the problems they provide? Toolkit is universal (albeit incomplete in case of the initial release of Prey, but then they re-added some things that they cut for some arcane reason), while difficulty and 'balance' (sawyer.jpg) is very relative and subjective. For example, I've completed Halo2 on legendary both when it was released on PC and after MCC remaster became available. Yes, it's challenging, but of a masochistic kind. I've kinda enjoyed it, but I competely understand that it's not so for about 98.7% of all players. Maybe the "balance" mods for Prey are laughably easy as compared to LASO or mundane legendary, would I also have a right to complain in this case?

 

[DalekFlay]

Already had this debate two pages ago but since it's back... I played a shooter dude who only used guns and I was constantly recycling shit for ammo. This idea that you get too many resources which removes all limitations likely depends on your playstyle. Though to be fair I had like 40 medkits I probably could have recycled... though also to be fair, I'm not sure those give you everything you need for shotty ammo.

 

[RoSoDude]

Go play Bioshock if you want gameplay to have no strategy, challenge, interesting conflicting choices and about twenty other downsides as a result of zero balance you fucking casuals.

Are immersive sims renowned for their difficulty rather than the toolkit to solve the problems they provide? Toolkit is universal (albeit incomplete in case of the initial release of Prey, but then they re-added some things that they cut for some arcane reason), while difficulty and 'balance' (sawyer.jpg) is very relative and subjective. For example, I've completed Halo2 on legendary both when it was released on PC and after MCC remaster became available. Yes, it's challenging, but of a masochistic kind. I've kinda enjoyed it, but I competely understand that it's not so for about 98.7% of all players. Maybe the "balance" mods for Prey are laughably easy as compared to LASO or mundane legendary, would I also have a right to complain in this case?

There's a difference between balance of options and tuning of difficulty. Difficulty can be subjective, but balance is fairly objective. A weapon could be overpowered relative to other tools and thus reduce the depth of gameplay, but the game could still remain challenging despite this. Or you could have a relatively unchallenging game that's still well-balanced. They're related, of course; an overpowered option reduces the relevant complexity and thus the challenge related to decisionmaking along with it, and a low enough difficulty renders even the best balance moot as the choice between options becomes irrelevant to the player.

Prey starts out pretty hardcore in terms of difficulty, but there are balance problems (which I've tried to address) between weapons, Neuromod skills, chipsets, etc., as well as tuning problems related to resource distribution and the encounter design failing to match the player character's growth. On top of that you have stagnating weapon/enemy variety, a tedious second half, and in my opinion a thoroughly forgettable story making it harder for me to recommend the game than I'd like.

 

[samuraigaiden]

RoSoDude What's your take on the survival mode options? Does the Core Balance mod change any of that stuff?

 

[RoSoDude]

RoSoDude What's your take on the survival mode options? Does the Core Balance mod change any of that stuff?

Initially promising, but rendered pointless by abysmal balancing (except the trauma system, that's still good). It was actually this poor balance that led me to create CORE BALANCE in the first place! After doing one playthrough with them, I posted the following impressions which I'll reproduce below with edits based on what I learned from further observation (strikethrough and italics).

Prior the release of Prey, I was very upset to hear that several hardcore systems had been disabled due to having been judged to be too hardcore for mainstream audiences. I later bought and played the game, and while I found it engaging enough, it was a far cry from the tense and challenging experience I craved from a successor to System Shock 2. Ever since they mentioned optionally reinstating some of these features in free update for the game, I've been eagerly awaiting news for a Survival Mode. So when I tuned into the Bethesda E3 conference, saw the Prey logo, and Arkane stated that the new Survival Mode, I was super excited and redownloaded the game right away.

Initially, I was very impressed. Limited weapon durability had an immediate impact -- none of the weapons I could find lying around were in particularly good condition, so I couldn't rely on crafting tons of pistol and shotgun ammo to spam my way to victory and had to be more strategic about combat. This in turn encouraged me to experiment with explosive gas canisters in the early game, and the combat system was much made much more engaging as a result. Weapon degradation also leads to significantly more build depth by tying the game systems together. For example, you can avoid the Repair skill by finding new copies of weapons lying around the station or by crafting them yourself, but this means you'll lose any modifications you've made to your weapons. Thus, if you want to spec into the Gunsmith and/or Lab Tech skills, you must also spec into Repair. Since you're probably going to be using Spare Parts more often overall, this also encourages you to acquire the Dismantle skill to retrieve Spare Parts from destroyed operators and from breaking down equipment. Since I'm going for a scientist/psi build instead, I'm relying on found/crafted weapons and have come to accept that weapon mods are a temporary rather than permanent investment, perfectly fitting with the upgrade cap on all weapon modifications without Gunsmith/Lab Tech. Hence, a significant amount of weapon potency is locked behind multiple investment in Engineer skills, great to balance out the power of maxed out Alien Neuromod trees.

However, I'm a little concerned that it won't pan out to be quite as meaningful as I thought. I did some testing, and here's what I found:

• A 100% condition Shotgun can fire 200 rounds before breaking
• A 100% condition Pistol can fire 500 rounds before breaking
• A 100% condition GLOO gun can fire 500 rounds before breaking (each clip is 42 rounds, for reference, this is actually damn quick if you use the GLOO a lot to freeze enemies)
• A 100% condition Disruptor Stun Gun can discharge 5000% before breaking (recall each shot takes 25% so this is really 200 shots)
• Don't have the Q-Beam, can't test it A 100% Q-beam can discharge 8000% before breaking (each clip holds 100%, discharged continuously)
• The Huntress Boltcaster doesn't degrade (aww)

Given that Spare Parts repair 25/35/50% durability depending on your Repair skill and that I've acquired something like 70 Spare Parts already by the Arboretum, is weapon degradation that much of a deciding factor? I'm curious about others' experience with the system so far, especially those whose character builds are more focused on weapon usage, weapon degradation is a total non-issue if you spend a single Neuromod on Repair I. For reference, I thought SS2's amount of weapon degradation was more or less perfect, and its degree is vastly overstated.

As for the trauma system, I must unfortunately report that it hasn't really come into play yet other than burn trauma, which is quite nasty. I'm carrying around a few trauma clearing items, but so far I haven't had any concussions, bone fractions, or hemorrhaging. I hope it'll become more relevant as time goes on (I hear bullets from turrets are prone to cause hemorrhaging, which will matter to me as someone installing plenty of Alien Neuromods). I also wish Operators had limited uses (or a certain amount of healing/repair/psi "charge"), since it is still pretty easy to just run back to the infinite healing/repair/psi station when things go south (as a point of balance, a spent Operator could have its Medkit/Q-beam Cells/Psi Hypo removed from its inventory when destroyed).

Finally, the oxygen system. I've not been too impressed with it, personally. I had hoped that the oxygen rate would be proportional to your current suit damage (so you're only totally immune if you're at 100% suit integrity), but it looks like it only comes into effect if you're below 50% suit integrity. I've only been in a few fights in space in my new playthrough, so maybe it'll become more relevant, but I was hoping for more tension and greater importance of Suit Repair Kits, which are pretty easy to come by. Given that the loot tables are utterly stuffed with Suit Repair Kits, limited oxygen is completely pointless.

I did the following to make the Survival Mode options as meaningful as they should have been in the actual release:

• Added a baseline oxygen decay at 100% suit condition. Now you have:
  • 11:04 between 66-100% (between 33-66% vanilla)
  • 8:18 between 33-66%
  • 5:32 between 0-33% (vanilla)
  • 2:46 at 0% (vanilla)
• Decreased weapon repair rate per spare part from 25/35/50% to 5/10/20% with Repair I/II/III
• Weapon durabilities (all had 100% chance to jam at 1% durability, except the Huntress which could not degrade or jam):
  • Shotgun durability loss of 0.5% per shot, 60% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • Pistol durability loss of 0.2% per shot, 40% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • GLOO durability loss of 0.2% per shot, 20% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • Stun Gun durability loss of 0.5% per shot, 75% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • Q-beam durability loss of 0.0125% per shot, 5% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • Huntress durability loss of 0.4% per shot, 40% chance to jam below 5% durability (couldn't break before)
  • Golden Pistol durability loss of 0.1% per shot, 40% chance to jam below 5% durability
  • Golden Shotgun durability loss of 0.25% per shot, 60% chance to jam below 5% durability
• Loot tables rebalanced with the following priorities:
  • Drastically reduce the number of Suit Repair Kits (76 slots with high probabilities -> 27 slots with low probabilities)
  • [...]
  • Slightly increase the number of trauma-clearing items (competing with medkits and psi hypos in medical containers)
• Difficulty modifier changes (Story/Easy/Normal/Hard/Nightmare):
  • Changed most damage intake modifiers from 0.1/0.5/1.0/1.4/1.6x to 0.1/0.5/1.0/1.0/1.0x (crush and laser damage stay at 0.4/0.7/1.0/1.2/1.4x, bleed trauma intake stays at 0.1/0.5/1.0/1.4/1.6x)
  • Changed suit damage intake modifiers from 0.25/0.25/1.0/1.0/1.0 to 0.25/0.5/1.0/1.2/1.4
  • Retained damage output modifiers at 1.25/1.1/1.0/1.0/0.8x
  • Changed medkit/psi hypo/food psi rates from 2.0/1.2/1.0/0.8/0.8x from 2.0/1.5/1.0/0.75/0.5x
  • Added a 2.0/1.5/1.0/0.75/0.5x modifier on WellFed duration
  • Added a 0.4/0.7/1.0/1.2/1.4x multiplier for radiation, concussion, fracture trauma intake

 

[Israfael]

o. This idea that you get too many resources which removes all limitations likely depends on your playstyle.

Yeah, it's a common tendency about Sawyerites - they don't like YOUR fun, they'd like to force you to play in one specific fashion that they believe it should go. It's borderline acceptable in MMOs (where creative gameplay is usually considered an exploit and is patched ASAP and you might even get punished for discovering it), but I don't see how it applies to purely single player game.

but balance is fairly objective.

As I said - is the alien dildo + adrenaline overproduction + agility buff combo in SS2 balanced in any ways or fashion? Or just replace the dildo with the wrench (and the related OS upgrades), it'd do the same in the first half of the game, especially if you played it already and memorized most of the dangers and monster movesets. How are you supposed to fix it without making the melee worthless for anything else? Also, as a player who is on his first playthrough, you can't really __see__ the balance between things, discovery of what is "overpowered" and what is "underpowered" for your current playstyle / RP limitations is a vital part of the game itself. What is really unbalanced is the Mooncrash where the game is engaging, challenging and fun until you find the hourglass recipe, then it's just a boring mop up operation.

 

[RoSoDude]

o. This idea that you get too many resources which removes all limitations likely depends on your playstyle.

Yeah, it's a common tendency about Sawyerites - they don't like YOUR fun, they'd like to force you to play in one specific fashion that they believe it should go. It's borderline acceptable in MMOs (where creative gameplay is usually considered an exploit and is patched ASAP and you might even get punished for discovering it), but I don't see how it applies to purely single player game.

Except both of you keep missing the distinction I'm making between balance and difficulty tuning. I want difficulty modes that affect resource distribution, not for ammo drops to be cut by 25% across the board for the sake of balance. I've played human builds focused on weapons, and yes, I do want to be forced to use my options (melee, Combat Focus, grenades, explosive canisters, turrets, Leverage power throw) creatively to get around resource scarcity, but that's just how I think the difficulty modes should work (most people in this thread seem to agree that the damage multipliers don't amount to much). If you want to play on Normal difficulty and spam shotgun shells, it doesn't really bother me. But if I select the hardest difficulty and opt into a bunch of Survival Mode options, I expect a survival experience, not weapon degradation that can be cheesed with one Neuromod and limited oxygen rendered meaningless due to Suit Repair Kits in every container. Ironically, the two of you are arguing that YOUR fun should supersede everyone else's, because the fun of strategizing a build and making it work under tight constraints isn't legitimate, or something.

but balance is fairly objective.

As I said - is the alien dildo + adrenaline overproduction + agility buff combo in SS2 balanced in any ways or fashion? Or just replace the dildo with the wrench (and the related OS upgrades), it'd do the same in the first half of the game, especially if you played it already and memorized most of the dangers and monster movesets. How are you supposed to fix it without making the melee worthless for anything else? Also, as a player who is on his first playthrough, you can't really __see__ the balance between things, discovery of what is "overpowered" and what is "underpowered" for your current playstyle / RP limitations is a vital part of the game itself. What is really unbalanced is the Mooncrash where the game is engaging, challenging and fun until you find the hourglass recipe, then it's just a boring mop up operation.

It's not that unbalanced, nor that hard to remedy. Adrenaline Overproduction multiplies damage according to the player character's psi stat (the multiple is 1 + (0,13 x PSI²)) for 10 seconds per PSI. This means it scales much harder with weapons that have already good base damage + weapon skill increases, and much less so with the wrench. Strength damage bonus is added on top and doesn't affect it. As for the Agility buff, most of the problem is that it lasts too long at low PSI. Here are some hypothetical ways to tweak the aforementioned combo:

• Fix Crystal Shard dealing 2.25x damage instead of intended 1.25x damage with Smasher overhand swings (this is already in the SCP mod). That means 12 less damage to be multiplied by Adrenaline Overproduction.
  
• Remove Wrench's damage bonuses from the Standard skill (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod). That means that the damage bonus from Adrenaline Overproduction for PSI 1-6 is bounded from +0.78 to +28.08
• Decrease Psychogenic Agility duration from 120s + 60s per PSI to 60s + 60s per PSI (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod)
  
• Change the Adrenaline Overproduction formula itself, or rebalance with yet shorter duration (the former is not something I've been able to do)
• Swap Adrenaline Overproduction to tier 3 psi disciplines to require more investment (not been able to do this either)

The first two changes are a nerf to melee, but not to the point that it becomes unviable in general. The fourth and fifth changes wouldn't affect "normal" melee at all. I've done 3 SS2 playthroughs in the last year (with my balance mod), spanning all four weapon skills, mix of tech skill investment, and a spectrum of no psi to full OSA, all using melee to various degrees with the Wrench, Laser Rapier, Crystal Shard, and Psi Sword. I can safely say that melee across the different options is both viable and not particularly overpowered, even accounting for the combo you listed. You'll find yourself up against groups that have to be carefully kited to avoid getting mobbed; Hybrids, Monkeys and Midwives area easy to dispatch but can deal damage before you close the distance; Spiders take a lot of punishment and their poison is a deadly threat; Cyborg Assassins will zoom away and pelt you with projectiles as you try to catch up; robots resist the Crystal Shard and explode on death; Rumblers are incredibly tanky and can be difficult to dodge. If someone invests into Exotic + Research, Psi, Agility, and melee traits to optimize their ability to smack people up close, then I have no problem with it being highly effective -- that's their build. If you're finding it too easy to optimize this build due to meta knowledge, play on Hard or Impossible where cyber module costs are higher.

It's absurd to treat balance as some unknowable thing that ought not be bothered with because it would ruin the "fun". The only reason the game is remotely fun in the first place is because of the existing balance the designer worked to construct. That balance can be improved in targeted ways, provided the designer didn't paint themselves into a corner (or in my case, if the available mod tools can't cover it). Obviously there's a learning process with any game and the full picture will likely not be clear during the player's first playthrough, which presents its own hurdles. But it's all part of the same design problem -- how do we give the player challenges to overcome with an interesting set of tools to choose from? Balance, difficulty, expression (e.g. roleplaying restrictions) all feed into that. I've put as much or possibly more effort into buffing underpowered stuff than nerfing overpowered stuff in the games I mod, then added more difficulty modulation on top to allow the player to tune their experience. That's giving the player more playstyle flexibility and ways to have fun, not less.

 

[V_K]

It's not that unbalanced, nor that hard to remedy. Adrenaline Overproduction multiplies damage according to the player character's psi stat (the multiple is 1 + (0,13 x PSI²)) for 10 seconds per PSI. This means it scales much harder with weapons that have already good base damage + weapon skill increases, and much less so with the wrench. Strength damage bonus is added on top and doesn't affect it. As for the Agility buff, most of the problem is that it lasts too long at low PSI. Here are some hypothetical ways to tweak the aforementioned combo:

• Fix Crystal Shard dealing 2.25x damage instead of intended 1.25x damage with Smasher overhand swings (this is already in the SCP mod). That means 12 less damage to be multiplied by Adrenaline Overproduction.
  
• Remove Wrench's damage bonuses from the Standard skill (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod). That means that the damage bonus from Adrenaline Overproduction for PSI 1-6 is bounded from +0.78 to +28.08
• Decrease Psychogenic Agility duration from 120s + 60s per PSI to 60s + 60s per PSI (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod)
  
• Change the Adrenaline Overproduction formula itself, or rebalance with yet shorter duration (the former is not something I've been able to do)
• Swap Adrenaline Overproduction to tier 3 psi disciplines to require more investment (not been able to do this either)

So basically, let's fuck up every other strategy that relies on any of those components just to make sure that this one particular combination isn't OP? Very balanced indeed

 

[DalekFlay]

Except both of you keep missing the distinction I'm making between balance and difficulty tuning. I want difficulty modes that affect resource distribution, not for ammo drops to be cut by 25% across the board for the sake of balance. I've played human builds focused on weapons, and yes, I do want to be forced to use my options (melee, Combat Focus, grenades, explosive canisters, turrets, Leverage power throw) creatively to get around resource scarcity, but that's just how I think the difficulty modes should work (most people in this thread seem to agree that the damage multipliers don't amount to much). If you want to play on Normal difficulty and spam shotgun shells, it doesn't really bother me. But if I select the hardest difficulty and opt into a bunch of Survival Mode options, I expect a survival experience, not weapon degradation that can be cheesed with one Neuromod and limited oxygen rendered meaningless due to Suit Repair Kits in every container. Ironically, the two of you are arguing that YOUR fun should supersede everyone else's, because the fun of strategizing a build and making it work under tight constraints isn't legitimate, or something.

The game is designed to allow you to play it your way. That's one of the biggest assets of the genre. If someone wants to play it like Doom, and play it like Doom on hard, that's their choice. Your idea of balance is to make people play it your way, which many don't want to do. Yes it is tricky to balance for both Doom players and survival players, but that's the goal you opt into when you design a game like this. I think they did a good job overall, personally, but it's cool you can mod it to be more like you want. I think the issue is you present that mod as a balancing and overall improvement, rather than a "more survival mod" or whatever.

 

[RoSoDude]

It's not that unbalanced, nor that hard to remedy. Adrenaline Overproduction multiplies damage according to the player character's psi stat (the multiple is 1 + (0,13 x PSI²)) for 10 seconds per PSI. This means it scales much harder with weapons that have already good base damage + weapon skill increases, and much less so with the wrench. Strength damage bonus is added on top and doesn't affect it. As for the Agility buff, most of the problem is that it lasts too long at low PSI. Here are some hypothetical ways to tweak the aforementioned combo:

• Fix Crystal Shard dealing 2.25x damage instead of intended 1.25x damage with Smasher overhand swings (this is already in the SCP mod). That means 12 less damage to be multiplied by Adrenaline Overproduction.
  
• Remove Wrench's damage bonuses from the Standard skill (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod). That means that the damage bonus from Adrenaline Overproduction for PSI 1-6 is bounded from +0.78 to +28.08
• Decrease Psychogenic Agility duration from 120s + 60s per PSI to 60s + 60s per PSI (this is already in my SS2-RSD mod)
  
• Change the Adrenaline Overproduction formula itself, or rebalance with yet shorter duration (the former is not something I've been able to do)
• Swap Adrenaline Overproduction to tier 3 psi disciplines to require more investment (not been able to do this either)

So basically, let's fuck up every other strategy that relies on any of those components just to make sure that this one particular combination isn't OP? Very balanced indeed

Absolutely not -- you clearly just don't know the game well enough. Crystal Shard getting too much damage from Smasher is widely acknowledged to be a bug. Most players will have never benefitted from it in the first place, and the wider problem is that investing into Exotic + Research was a waste for other reasons. Buff Exotic and Research and fix the damage bug, Crystal Shard is still amazingly good for melee with or without further investment. As for the Wrench, the Standard skill is widely known to be overpowered already. Removing the free damage bonus for the Wrench means the player isn't wasting their time investing into Energy for the Laser Rapier or Exotic + Research for the Crystal Shard, and the Wrench retains its value as the backup/starter option. Psychogenic Agility and Adrenaline Overproduction remain 2 of the best psi disciplines regardless of minor nerfs. No build or strategy is being significantly harmed in this exchange, while other options have a chance to shine (along with other buffs).

Except both of you keep missing the distinction I'm making between balance and difficulty tuning. I want difficulty modes that affect resource distribution, not for ammo drops to be cut by 25% across the board for the sake of balance. I've played human builds focused on weapons, and yes, I do want to be forced to use my options (melee, Combat Focus, grenades, explosive canisters, turrets, Leverage power throw) creatively to get around resource scarcity, but that's just how I think the difficulty modes should work (most people in this thread seem to agree that the damage multipliers don't amount to much). If you want to play on Normal difficulty and spam shotgun shells, it doesn't really bother me. But if I select the hardest difficulty and opt into a bunch of Survival Mode options, I expect a survival experience, not weapon degradation that can be cheesed with one Neuromod and limited oxygen rendered meaningless due to Suit Repair Kits in every container. Ironically, the two of you are arguing that YOUR fun should supersede everyone else's, because the fun of strategizing a build and making it work under tight constraints isn't legitimate, or something.

The game is designed to allow you to play it your way. That's one of the biggest assets of the genre. If someone wants to play it like Doom, and play it like Doom on hard, that's their choice. Your idea of balance is to make people play it your way, which many don't want to do. Yes it is tricky to balance for both Doom players and survival players, but that's the goal you opt into when you design a game like this. I think they did a good job overall, personally, but it's cool you can mod it to be more like you want. I think the issue is you present that mod as a balancing and overall improvement, rather than a "more survival mod" or whatever.

Reading comprehension. My mod does not make the game tangibly more difficult unless you specifically install the hardcore modules. Even on the harder difficulties, which I was unable to substantially alter due to engine limitations. This is the second time you've selectively ignored this fact to push some notion that I'm imposing my perspective on resource balance when I took pains to make it opt-in, which is how it should have been in the first place (players looking for an SS2-like experience were underserved). I'm open to criticism, but you should at least engage with the facts at hand.

 

[Israfael]

can safely say that melee across the different options is both viable and not particularly overpowered, even accounting for the combo you listed. You'll find yourself up against groups that have to be carefully kited to avoid getting mobbed

Not sure how it is with various mods, but in vanilla SS2 I basically killed everything with one empowered strike not bothering switching to rapier for robots, even the shambler type monster that's ever present in the last levels of the game and is supposed to drain my resources did not do anything that really bothered me. Only reavers presented a mere annoyance as I've saved all the ammo I needed to comfortably get rid of them (by the way, I've maxed out basically everything I needed to be proficient with most weapons, spells and melee without really scrounging and recycling everything). Sorry, I simply don't see anything drastically different system-wise between the games, it's just SS2 had more oppressive atmosphere, better sound design and character acting that might have created an impression of being extra difficult. We all know this is not Arkane's best forte, they were never really into setting the mood or writing a good plot.

Ironically, the two of you are arguing that YOUR fun should supersede everyone else's, because the fun of strategizing a build and making it work under tight constraints isn't legitimate, or something.

I'm not arguing for limiting anyone's fun, did I ever said that those mods should be removed and so on? No one really forces you to recycle everything through whole game, it's your personal choice to do so. Of course, it's a typical new experience SS2-like habit, but most people gradually relax their scrounging as they find ahem, balance, between resource gathering and plot progression. But if you limit all available resources and shoehorn people into hobo mode, you would HAVE to do that to survive. As I said a few posts back, I was totally fine with the legendary difficulty in Halo 2, it is not impossible to pass through, but it shoehorned you into a very specific strategies and weapons combos (which mostly revolve around plasma pistol) that made everything else (90% of the available options) simply non-viable even if you have CSGO-competitive grade aim and good game sense.

The first two changes are a nerf to melee, but not to the point that it becomes unviable in general.

The question was somewhat different - why you even have to do that? It's not a competitive game, no one really forces you to choose the most OP options, but they are available if you need it (and know that they exist). What is the purpose of balance in the single player game? For instance, what is actually the meaning of this:

No build or strategy is being significantly harmed in this exchange, while other options have a chance to shine

I thought, when we play some non-competitive game (especially if we re-play it and know __something__ about the balance and relative usefulness of options), we simply __choose__ our way to play, what is the matter if "build A" is better than "build B"? What is the difference in challenge if, for example, a D&D bard would be as versatile as wizards in solving encounters / social challenges and so on? Just look at the Pillars of Extreme Boredom where this approach leads.

 

[Ash]

Holy shit the casuals ITT

>Equating SS2 and Prey difficulty wise lol
>"Arkane aren't known for setting the mood". Lol Arx Fatalis weeps
>"I just want to play MY WAY like a kid in a sandbox with no rigid rules but my own imagination and creativity!!!"
>Somehow completed Prey (first playthrough on higher difficulties) and didn't completely steamroll through it.
>"you can play it like Doom on hard!". That is actually what I wanted but the game said no. The only way you are allowed to play is casual.
>"Immersive Sims aren't known for difficulty". Sure not this new age crap. Many of the old ones are among the most hardcore FP games in existence.

Wait, these people think Dishonored is a good game. Don't bother with them.

 

[Multidirectional]

This balance sperging is fine and all but pretty much all of my favorite RPGs have "customize your difficulty" balance between various upgrades in them. I'm just used to that. When I like the game enough I will replay it with harder underpowered styles.
Perhaps I will give Rosodude's mod another try sometime with weapon degradation disabled, that thing was annoying me too much with his mod so I didn't get far. Or maybe I sucked at handling it. Anyway, I found myself preferring unbalanced vanilla to that tedium.
I'm definitely a lot more forgiving when it comes to balance in single player games. When I play Starcraft II ladder then I am happy to have balance.

 

[DalekFlay]

Reading comprehension. My mod does not make the game tangibly more difficult unless you specifically install the hardcore modules. Even on the harder difficulties, which I was unable to substantially alter due to engine limitations. This is the second time you've selectively ignored this fact to push some notion that I'm imposing my perspective on resource balance when I took pains to make it opt-in, which is how it should have been in the first place (players looking for an SS2-like experience were underserved). I'm open to criticism, but you should at least engage with the facts at hand.

And I know I told you before that it's cool you made some of it modular. Like I said above, I'm well aware we had this debate a few pages ago. My point is more about the overall concept of adding "balance" to a game where you're supposed to be able to play it a zillion different ways. Whatever you change from Arkane's settled on compromises will have its own compromises, and it's patently obvious which playstyle you prefer. Weapon degradation for example is a batshit thing to include in a Doom style game, which this is supposed to be able to be, which is probably why it was taken out in the first place. Again though it's cool its modular, and I am glad you worked hard to offer changes many might prefer, I just kinda bristle at the idea of a "Prey balance mod" in total.

To be fair I'm not really a fan of balance mods in general usually, because as Multidirectional just said they tend to add tedium rather than interesting challenges.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

DalekFlay You’re ignoring the fact that Colantonio basically came out and said “Yeah. The game was taken away from us by marketing suits during play testing. They dictated various changes to game systems, all of which reduced difficulty and/or complexity, and the final product was not indicative of our original vision regarding balance”.

 

[A horse of course]

DalekFlay You’re ignoring the fact that Colantonio basically came out and said “Yeah. The game was taken away from us by marketing suits during play testing. They dictated various changes to game systems, all of which reduced difficulty and/or complexity, and the final product was not indicative of our original vision regarding balance”.

They always say that

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

DalekFlay You’re ignoring the fact that Colantonio basically came out and said “Yeah. The game was taken away from us by marketing suits during play testing. They dictated various changes to game systems, all of which reduced difficulty and/or complexity, and the final product was not indicative of our original vision regarding balance”.

They always say that

...?

They really don't. Raph probably only said it because he had already been fired.

 

[Average Manatee]

Keep in mind that while standard weapons or adrenaline overproduction are a bit OP in SS2, Prey is explicitly designed to be completable with no upgrades

 

[DalekFlay]

DalekFlay You’re ignoring the fact that Colantonio basically came out and said “Yeah. The game was taken away from us by marketing suits during play testing. They dictated various changes to game systems, all of which reduced difficulty and/or complexity, and the final product was not indicative of our original vision regarding balance”.

I mean if Bethesda forced them to remove weapon degradation then good on you Bethesda. Not every note from on high is a wrong one.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Not every note from on high is a wrong one.

Agreed, but I was taking issue with:

a Doom style game, which this is supposed to be able to be

because I don't think that is true according to the original author; one doesn't attribute Shakespeare's authorial intention to Bowdler.

All that said, as far as I understand your argument it's that ultimately Fun trumps Balance, and I very much agree with that (I actually made the same point in my mini-review of Mooncrash earlier in this thread). I just think you and I have different ideas of Fun in this context.

 

[Average Manatee]

Also, surprised noone has mentioned the actual broken OP build of SS2 you can be running in medsci: Having multiple laser pistols all set to overcharge. Probably the only way you can completely avoid melee in an SS2 impossible run.

 

[RoSoDude]

Also, surprised noone has mentioned the actual broken OP build of SS2 you can be running in medsci: Having multiple laser pistols all set to overcharge. Probably the only way you can completely avoid melee in an SS2 impossible run.

Uh, where are you getting multiple laser pistols in MedSci? You can get one from character creation, next available is the broken one in the Cargo Bays. Then another in Hydroponics, etc.

It's true that this is one of the better strategies available, as overcharge shots drain the same amount of durability as a normal shot, and carrying two or more means double, triple, etc. capacity to avoid the drawbacks of using overcharge (high energy drain per point of damage, cool down time).