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Game News Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #28: Logistics Update

godsend1989

Scholar
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
270
Divinity: Original Sin
Ok Obsidian games had bugs because their games always had massive content and little time to test, nothing will change now but you all know what did you paid for, their games are rich, detailed and buggy you can`t have them all and i`m fine with it.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,985
None of the Obsidian games I've played were extremely buggy so fuck off with the lies.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,952
Project: Eternity
It's funny how Kickstarter warped everyone's objectives. I think this model warrants a serious psychological research. In normal campaign the goal of the developer/publisher is to market the shit in order to get money, whereas the goal of the consumer is to get the assurance the the product is going to be of top-quality

Because others don't have the same objectives as you do, they are warped and inherently wrong and misguided, right?

FFS, Haba, do not stoop down to a strawman. The primary objective is always the same - to get a good product. So we can all agree. What I criticise is not the idea of patronage through Kickstarter but the form it takes in case of AA releases. Specifically I don't like the blind zealotry around it, whereby the donors do not even stop and think, do not question, do not raise any points which should be raised in any other situation where money would be involved.


You are not buying a product. There is no product. There is an idea of a product that could be. That is what the pitch says, that is what you get.

When I commission a painting from a painter, I do not demand and expect nor do I shout my consumer rights.

I bet you didn't work with any artists. You actually do exactly that - you must be sure that the final product meets your expectations. Likewise, the artist should strive to fit the tastes of his patron. It's been general truth of patronage since the dawn of time.

Also, work on software is unlike any other "artistic" undertaking - it does require substantial planning, and far more effort than any other "work of art". It stands to reason "patrons" should be presented with more than assurances "it will be great". Unfortunately, patrons do not appear to be interested in that in the least - which is dangerous.

It is a calculated risk based on the artist's previous works.

That would be all fine if Obsidian had a great track record to speak of. Then I could trust them. As it is, something more substantial would be more meaningful.

Also, calculated? Are you sure anyone who pledged money did any kind of calculation? Or was it just reacting to marketing and writings on water?

Whenever there is a creative process involved, that is the risk you have to accept.

Risk is a natural part in every project. Likewise are plans and failsafe mechanism to avert the risks, which are presented to the patrons/management in order to give the undertaking credibility. Unfortunately due to mechanism I described above I think credibility is not something people even want to hear about in that model.

If you are risk aversive and in love with the magical "consumer's rights", then you do not commission art. You do not go to an expensive restaurant and order an experimental piece from the menu. You go to the supermarket and you buy a poster and you grab a burger from McDonalds on your way to home.

Why is it so very hard to accept that something isn't for you and walk away?

It's funny you should say that. What I've been saying all along is merely a simple statement: "Obsidian hasn't provided us with anything of substance, and based on their rather dubious track record one cannot be so certain they will deliver quality product in a specified time". End. Full stop. I do not say that Obsiadian is bent on destroying the world or killing babies or running away with the money. In fact, I always stressed they are well-meaning bunch with many talented designers. I am sure they want to create a great game.

All I ask are very simple questions everyone would ask themselves before investing any kind of money. And yet, time and time again people keep telling me how unreasonable I am for demanding something so simple as decription of what the final work will be *exactly*, beyond words scattered on the wind and empty promises. I can't help but notice how defensive they are of Obsidian, protecting them and the project they work on at all cost, even though I really keep stating simple facts, without any malicious intent or perverse satisfaction: they didn't really give us anything of value. I think that as someone who gives something of substance (money), I should deserve something of substance in return. Still, Obsidian defenders proceed to prove me how ungreateful I am for raising a disseting voice and not allowing them to bask in the full glory of the dream fantasy this game is going to be, for fear this dream would turn into nightmare. It's all in spite of the fact that as "patrons" we share commong goal - we want a good product. So who is unreasonable here - someone who acts in his own interest by raising a question, or someone who acts against his own interest by not even wanting to hear the answer? Isn't the latter view essentially warped?

What I am stressing here is the lack of critical thinking and elementary foresight on the part of the "patrons" and the active encouragement of this ignorance by the "artist". It's death of reasoning tantamount to childish "please, please tell us, how amazing this toy is going to be", whereby the a travelling peddler promises all sorts of wonders, and gets away with it. This is what I am standing against - ignorance, and patronising your clients (as well as allowing yourself to be patronised). Why I think this is bad? Because this is exactly the approach we were subjected throughout those years via various hype machines served by industry, and keep criticizing other communities for it (Beth- and Biodrones)... and yet we never learn.

I am not really a miser of any kind who only waits for Obsidian to fail so that I can proclaim "Didn't I tell you?!" As a matter of fact I want them to succeed, and deliver. Yet for me, personally, it all comes down to inspiring trust based on actual work you do. As a gamer, I would really like to see Obsidian address a key problem with their games: the lack of planning and haphazard development, as proved by practically all of their previous titles. Did they prove to me that they are aware of the issue in question in the campaign for their latest pitch? The answer is resounding no. The fact that even on the 'Dex no one respects himself enough to demand such common sense answers by default is saddening.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,952
Project: Eternity
I know you wanted detailed vision statement, I would too, but why the fuck are you still bitching about this ? It was never promised by Obsidian, they've been clear about it from the start.

Of course it was clear they had no intention of providing that. It is obvious though that they should have, for clarity sake. And I am kind of amused others don't share the same sentiment because "in Obsidian we trust". That's what I keep raising it.

Oh and the "how are they gonna glue this together ?" argument is weak. It's 2 cities, wilderness, megadungeon and lore/story about souls/whatever. It's pretty basic shit dammit, they glue themselves together by default.

First off, it was not argument. It was a question.

Second, those things should not merely "glued" together, they should be handcrafted put in appropriate contexts and interconnected. Otherwise you can end up with something along an "espionage RPG" where levels are completely linear, your PC - a badass spy - cannot jump over a goddamn 30 cm brick, and enemy bosses can take on 300 bullets from a submachine game into their foreheads, just because.

Thirdly, it's easy to say that there will be "2 cities, wilderness, megadungeon and lore/story about souls/whatever", but the question is, what this really means? We all say we want those features atributing some value to them, based on our experience (2 cities like BG2 Athkatla!! A 15 level dungeon, with each level like those in the Watcher's keep!! A plot rivaling Planescape!!), but in reality without a plan we do not even know if the devs truly realise why we want them, least of all how to mirror the experience.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
"Quality" is simply far too nebulous a concept. There's no amount of plans that Obsidian could show us that would guarantee the quality of the game. The only way to guarantee quality is if the producers have enough funds available that they can spend any amount of time needed on polishing, or even scrap the project and restart from scratch if that's what it takes.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen

Grade A post - I agree with a lot of it, and if nothing else it is excellent in the way you argue your points.

I do disagree very strongly with you in one case, however, and that's the level of demand of clarity you have for Kickstarters. Here's why:

1) Investments fail and investors invest in risky business precisely because the results are hard to define, but if met, the demands which arise from the promises can be glorious and worth more than the investment. This is the reason for pledging even though details are largely unknown, and there is no tangible documentation of the product.

2) "A clear vision statement and mission document is not tangible documentation", you might argue, and you'd be correct. However, Kickstarters don't need to satisfy 3 or 4 heavy investors, or even 50 or 100. Project Eternity had to satisfy almost 80.000 stakeholders to get to where it got to. As such, the very system of Kickstarter encourages vagueness. The key to making money seems to be as vague as possible before it starts actively costing you money because people want to know more. In other words, as little information as you can possible get away with makes sense in the system, because if people know just enough to donate but not enough to retract their donation then the money will flow in. Saying "this will be like BG, IWD and Torment" is too little info to get people donating, supporting that with "it will be party-based, 6 party members, story-focused and with some modern design stuff" is enough, but going further and saying "it will have cooldowns, romances and only contain 20 hours of play because RPGs are expensive" is too much. Do you follow? Shaker by Tom and Brenda missed the mark by giving out too little info, and there are plenty of projects that gave too much. Shadowrun gave too little info for me to donate. If I recall correctly you donated heavily to P:E, which enforces this theory. More information might have turned you off, so why provid it? A cynical view, perhaps, but I think it's close to the truth. "Shouldn't that give us pause as consumers?" you ask. Well, I think there's a very good reason it shouldn't, see below.

3) Just to get it out of the way: Of course, the exception to the two statements I just made are the Kickstarter projects that already have become a tangible product. I.e. "we're almost done with this shit, here it is, give us money to expand/finish." I.e. Legend of Eisenwald for example. These projects often stand or fall by the quality of their actual product.

This leads us to the following point:

Isn't number 1) and 2) basically defending your viewpoint? If 1) and 2) is true, then we should pressure developers to provide more info, so we can make more reasonable choices, right? Well, no.

I see it as evident that we've been criticising the industry for taking far too little risk in their video game endeavours the last 10 years. We demanded more risks, more refreshing games on the one hand, and a return to form on the other. But a return to form that was risky in itself, a return to form that wasn't necessarily sellable or profitable from a market perspective. From the first point evidently follows that we as gamers need to be ready to take risks, and from the second follows that we must accept that to gain the maximum backing for these sorts of projects, the developers have to be vague so as not to turn people off from what is a risky venture. If they promise the Codex exactly what we want, we won't get it, because the audience will be too small. If they promise the refugee biowhores what they want, the old-school crowd won't touch it. If they openly stated what is probably the truth - that this game will cater to both crowds in some way or fashion - both crowds would be enraged by the parts of the game that catered to the other. The end result is that we have to bet on the fact that we will be more happy than the other camp, or that both camps will be equally happy, or if that fails, that we will at least get a product that is better than the barren RPG wasteland (no pun intended) we've been maneuvering through the last 10 years.

Am I saying the Kickstarters are lying? Hell yeah. We're dealing with people trying to sell a product, of course they're only selling the great points. Your point here is that we have to be more critical as consumers, and I'm right there with you on that one. That's why I brofisted your post. We have to start demanding our money's worth, we don't need to "support" Obsidian at this point, we don't need to apologise for them, just attempt to keep them on track and keep asking them what they're doing. We're done making sure they get the money to make the game we want. Let's make sure that's what they make. So that's where I agree with you. Where I disagree with you is that I don't think this means we have to demand clear vision documents and details on the mechanics before the Kickstarter is done. If we want a resurgence of these kinds of RPGs which have little to no bearing on the current market, we have to take our chances, we have to take this one shot we've been given and give it all we got. If we let this chance pass us by we're hardly like to get another in the foreseeable future.

In other words, and I've made this point before, the Kickstarter projects will almost certainly be much, much better than the nothing we've been treated to for ten years. And of top of this, there's a chance that i might, just might, a) result in really good games and b) spread these kind of games to a wider audience and change some of the current paradigms.

If this whole thing tanks big, if we're going to be faced with a worst-case scenario, well, the RPG situation can't become much worse than it is currently, can it? All we've lost in the process is a few dollars trying to make our hobby work.

tl;dr: I agree that we should be critical consumers, I agree that the Obsidian apologists should shut their trap now that Kickstarter is over and stop zealously defending every ignorant thing Josh or Chris says, but I also think we should support these efforts and generally be very optimistic about old-school RPGs on Kickstarter and the Kickstarter phenomena. It's all we've got at the moment.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,544
Look guys, Obsidian suck. They've never made a bug-free or brilliant piece of design to save themselves (except when using someone else's engine) and this game is going to be horribly shitty.

But. You. Will. All. Love. It.

Look at this. This is a 6 page thread about Dragon Age 3 being made by Electronic Arts. Let's not beat around the bush here. EA are making DA:3. BioWare is dead. We're some prestigious website with values and la-la-la but there you all are, salivating over Dragon Age 3, made by E-fucking-A and arguing how Dragon Age 2 wasn't a steaming pile of crap. It was just a steaming pile of under-appreciated crap.

The truth is, what you really love, is to whinge about shit. See me? I'm pure. I didn't invest because I don't like RTwP. But you dolts, you all put your fucking money on the table. You raised $9,000 for this piece of shit. Because deep down, deep in your hearts, you love shit. Look at all the talk about Fallout 3, Bethesda's games, shitty BioWarean crap-fests. Do you see threads about KotC that get anywhere near this long? No you fucking don't. Why? Because you're not really interested in KotC. Hell, I doubt a KotC 2 KickStarter would even raise enough money from you guys to beat the piffling amount we threw at Dead State. But here you all are, talking about P:E. - which we know is going to be a horribly over-optimistic failed piece of design. And yet you all invested. Why?

Because. You. Fucking. Love. It.

You love your buggy pieces of overly-optimistic shit because that's what gets you off. It gets you off because not only do you get a shitty game that you secretly love, but then you all get to fucking whinge about it.

And then you buy the next one.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,761
Location
Copenhagen
But I hated Alpha Protocol and Dragon Age 2 and I genuinely loved Knights of the Chalice :(

Isn't there some middle ground?

Oh, fuck, The Codex, no nuances FUUCK YOUR DARK UNDERLORRDDDD RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE WEJIFOEWJG¤G)WJ¤JOEGJSGBSfhb
 

Gurkog

Erudite
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
1,373
Location
The Great Northwest
Project: Eternity
I expect that PE will be flawed, but I also expect that the game will deliver in areas that the current generation of console trash neglects. So yes, It will be be a shitty game that I will cum all over and worship like the blind fanboy retard I am!
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I genuinely refuse to believe that most of you guys liked/bought Dragon's Age / Mass Effect and didn't buy KotC. DU probably just channeling his inner Jasede and being a little dramatic.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Didn't play ME1,2,3,DA2. Years from now, I'll be able to brag to all of you, about the time all of you talked about how the whores round the corner definitely had strange fungi growing out of their nether regions, and then all of you got drunk, and went for those same bloody whores, four (soon five) times. And I didn't, I waited for the lady who still had her dignity, even if she never quite finished her make-up and the going was never quite as great as you imagined.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,431
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
combatshooting.png
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
5,540
Location
United States of America
I didn't donate to this piece of shit because it's generic artfag fantasy. RTwP can be tolerable if it's designed better than it was in Baldur's Gate or PS:T.
 

Cynic

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,850
Backed for the lowest amount. I'm very skeptical, but also fascinated by what will happen, good or bad, it will be an endless source of awesome codextainment
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248
Look guys, Obsidian suck. They've never made a bug-free or brilliant piece of design to save themselves (except when using someone else's engine) and this game is going to be horribly shitty.

But. You. Will. All. Love. It.

Look at this. This is a 6 page thread about Dragon Age 3 being made by Electronic Arts. Let's not beat around the bush here. EA are making DA:3. BioWare is dead. We're some prestigious website with values and la-la-la but there you all are, salivating over Dragon Age 3, made by E-fucking-A and arguing how Dragon Age 2 wasn't a steaming pile of crap. It was just a steaming pile of under-appreciated crap.

The truth is, what you really love, is to whinge about shit. See me? I'm pure. I didn't invest because I don't like RTwP. But you dolts, you all put your fucking money on the table. You raised $9,000 for this piece of shit. Because deep down, deep in your hearts, you love shit. Look at all the talk about Fallout 3, Bethesda's games, shitty BioWarean crap-fests. Do you see threads about KotC that get anywhere near this long? No you fucking don't. Why? Because you're not really interested in KotC. Hell, I doubt a KotC 2 KickStarter would even raise enough money from you guys to beat the piffling amount we threw at Dead State. But here you all are, talking about P:E. - which we know is going to be a horribly over-optimistic failed piece of design. And yet you all invested. Why?

Because. You. Fucking. Love. It.

You love your buggy pieces of overly-optimistic shit because that's what gets you off. It gets you off because not only do you get a shitty game that you secretly love, but then you all get to fucking whinge about it.

And then you buy the next one.
Don't be this way DU. If you don't like PE and hate on it, it will ruin our enjoyment of PE.

And don't fret over the DA3. Romancing whores in games is the closest some Codexers will ever come to getting their dicks wet. You can't blame them for that.
 

ironyuri

Guest
Dungeon Siege 3 on Obsidian's in-house Onyx Engine was incredibly stable and well designed, apart from the initial problems with multiplayer camera which were later improved through patches, but only by making it a camera tethered to the host player (which also had its issues).

The single player experience was bug free and well designed. The world design and background art were top notch.
 

ghostdog

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
11,158
Free from the chains of publishers former Black Isle and Troika developers will deliver the most balanced, stable and brilliant cRPG ever !! A combination of Fallout, PST, Baldur's Gate 2 and Arcanum !!
It will warm the cold hearts of codexers and it will bring a new hope...
:yeah:



Or maybe it will be an unpolished mess with moments of brilliance. Most codexers will like it and even love it (like they love troika games), but some will hate it with passion and write walls of text about how much it sucks. Business as usual.
:troll:


But then again it could be the game that breaks Obsidian. The pressure to create the best cRPG ever and make all bakers happy will send MCA into steroid madness, Tim Cain into a mylittlepony/carebears frenzy, and Sawyer back to heavy glue-sniffing. The game will be unplayable shit. Kickstarter as a whole will crumble and Codex will delve into everlasting darkness...
:rage:
 

serch

Magister
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
1,392
Location
Behind mistary, in front of conspirancy
Truth to be said we raised more money for Wasteland 2 than for Eternity, even with motherfucking Cain and Avellone stud on board, just because Wasteland promised tb combat. I think we are a pretty coherent bunch.




lol no
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
If Fargo is able to deliver everything he promised, Wasteland 2 will be the greatest CRPG ever made.

I don't think he'll deliver everything, but I am expecting a very good game.

in before huge disappointment
 

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