Development Info Project Eternity Kickstarter Update #41: Dwarves and Doors (and a complete lack of proofreading)

[Roguey]

Do you see a pattern?

The pattern in that the the ratio of Rogue ranks/to Fighter ranks rapidly goes down.

unless the threshold of the lock also scales like that Rogues would be useless as lockpickers post level 5. If it DOES scale like that then Rogues are 'special' and this is nothing but DnD, except then it no longer adheres to Sawyer's shitty philosophy of everyone is equal, if not equal then equivalent.

I'm not seeing the problem. At level 5, a rogue would hypothetically be able to open a 10-rank lock using no lockpicks or x amount of lockpicks. To open the same lock a fighter would need to use x lockpicks or x+y lockpicks.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Do you see a pattern?

The pattern in that the the ratio of Rogue ranks/to Fighter ranks rapidly goes down.

unless the threshold of the lock also scales like that Rogues would be useless as lockpickers post level 5. If it DOES scale like that then Rogues are 'special' and this is nothing but DnD, except then it no longer adheres to Sawyer's shitty philosophy of everyone is equal, if not equal then equivalent.

I'm not seeing the problem. At level 5, a rogue would hypothetically be able to open a 10-rank lock using no lockpicks or x amount of lockpicks. To open the same lock a fighter would need to use x lockpicks or x+y lockpicks.

That would only be true if ALL locks at level 5 Level Scale. Geddit?

 

[Roguey]

Do you see a pattern?

The pattern in that the the ratio of Rogue ranks/to Fighter ranks rapidly goes down.

unless the threshold of the lock also scales like that Rogues would be useless as lockpickers post level 5. If it DOES scale like that then Rogues are 'special' and this is nothing but DnD, except then it no longer adheres to Sawyer's shitty philosophy of everyone is equal, if not equal then equivalent.

I'm not seeing the problem. At level 5, a rogue would hypothetically be able to open a 10-rank lock using no lockpicks or x amount of lockpicks. To open the same lock a fighter would need to use x lockpicks or x+y lockpicks.

That would only be true if ALL locks at level 5 Level Scale. Geddit?

No. I believe there will be locks scattered throughout the game with various thresholds. Some will be trivial to open for anyone making regular investment in the skill, some you'll have to come back for later, some will be slightly higher than the rank you have and the number of lockpicks you have to use to open them will depend on how large the gap is. Rogues always benefit from having a narrower gap.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Oh my god.

Roguey. He won't benefit. Since such locks will be rare and the Fighter investing in Lockpicking will perfectly be willing to spare a few lock picks for rare cases.

 

[Hormalakh]

why not make some doors bashable (wooden) and some/most non-bashable (iron)? Chests being unbreakable I can pretty much understand. Although, to be truthful, I don't really think this door breaking is that big of a deal. I mean we couldn't do this in a lot of the older games either. At some point, they can't implement every single little thing and have to draw the line.

As for Captain Shrek, the rogue will have special abilities and talents. I asked him about this specifically and he confirmed it. Lockpicking just isn't one of those abilities.

 

[Excidium]

why not make some doors bashable (wooden) and some/most non-bashable (iron)? Chests being unbreakable I can pretty much understand.

I can't.

why not make some doors bashable (wooden) and some/most non-bashable (iron)? Chests being unbreakable I can pretty much understand. Although, to be truthful, I don't really think this door breaking is that big of a deal. I mean we couldn't do this in a lot of the older games either..

And there were plenty of old games where we could do that. If I could do something in a game released over 20 years ago I sure as hell expect something made today to allow that.

it's fucking core RPG stuff.

 

[Delterius]

"Any solution that involves randomly destroying loot is pointless if a) loot isn't involved (e.g. a door) b) you can reload. It's an awful lot of mental contortion to fulfill the desire to just spend points on weapon skills and not on utility skills."

Maybe you missed the part where I asked you if he had any issues with the other suggestions. You could just say he didn't specifically say anything about those. Or even that you don't know, the best stalkers fail sometimes.

 

[Hormalakh]

And there were plenty of old games where we could do that. If I could do something in a game released over 20 years ago I sure as hell expect something made today to allow that.

it's fucking core RPG stuff.

Fair enough. I don't disagree with you - some doors being breakable wouldn't be an issue. I don't think every door should be breakable (different materials, etc) but some should be. I wrote a post on OEI's forums saying as much. Maybe Josh will reconsider.


http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63308-update-41-dd-dwarves-and-doors/?p=1307164

If a certain door is meant to really keep someone out, the creator of that door would have chosen better materials (unbreakable) for the job. If it's a wooden door into some pleb's house, I should be able to break it down. It's that simple. Then the thieves and the lockpicks still have a job, and the door smashing monsters are happy too.

Many have said this, and I agree: breaking down doors was a mainstay of the older games. It wasn't always easy (and feasible for every door) but you could do it and was an option sometimes. Most of the old games had this, at least. Fallout 1/2, Baldur's Gate 1/2.

 

[Excidium]

Man if you're gonna come up with arbitrary exceptions might as well not have door bashing at all. Specially in a fantasy game with 7ft tall totally-not-orcs, magical spells that increase strength and enchanted weapons.

The simple elegant solution would be to make it (like any strenous activity) hurt your stamina (unless you used something like a fireball but then you're spending a spell/day).

BUT STAMINA REGENS OUT OF COMBAT R00FLES

Well then, another (somewhat arbitrary) solution is to give objects a DT, if you can't deal damage that gets past it then you can't bash. Doesn't Sawyer looooove Damage Tresholds?

 

[Irenaeus]

Well then, another (somewhat arbitrary) solution is to give objects a DT, if you can't deal damage that gets past it then you can't bash. Doesn't Sawyer looooove Damage Tresholds?

To be fair, this is probably the best solution in this system.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Can't we just look for a key?

 

[tuluse]

Well then, another (somewhat arbitrary) solution is to give objects a DT, if you can't deal damage that gets past it then you can't bash. Doesn't Sawyer looooove Damage Tresholds?

All weapons do a minimum damage

 

[Excidium]

Well then, another (somewhat arbitrary) solution is to give objects a DT, if you can't deal damage that gets past it then you can't bash. Doesn't Sawyer looooove Damage Tresholds?

All weapons do a minimum damage

Stamina damage...doors don't get knocked out.

 

[St. Toxic]

Can't we just look for a key?

What's the point of looking for a key if any class can do it and not just Keymaster?

 

[tuluse]

You just don't understand Sawyer at all.

Key-foraging will be a skill that any class can learn, the keymaster just gets a one time bonus to it.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

HOLY SHIT THEY MADE A DOOR

Vault Dweller never has updates like this. He could learn a thing or two.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Can't we just look for a key?

What's the point of looking for a key if any class can do it and not just Keymaster?

Keymasters won't fail spot checks that look for keys? Or something?

 

[aris]

What I found most interesting about the second screenshot is that they actually model all uneveness in the walls and floors instead of bumpmapping and even every brick on the walls and arches. It's easier for sure, but much more demanding on the graphics card. But then again, they aren't exactly using state of the arts graphics, so they can get away with it. It might also be a lazy way of overcoming this problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bump_map_vs_isosurface2.png, as it can't make the outline nor the shadow of objects appear uneven if the outline itself is not rendere bumpy.

 

[Infinitron]

What I found most interesting about the second screenshot is that they actually model all uneveness in the walls and floors instead of bumpmapping and even every brick on the walls and arches. It's easier for sure, but much more demanding on the graphics card. But then again, they aren't exactly using state of the arts graphics, so they can get away with it. It might also be a lazy way of overcoming this problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bump_map_vs_isosurface2.png, as it can't make the outline nor the shadow of objects appear uneven if the outline itself is not rendere bumpy.

PE background graphics will be prerendered and then manually touched up. There will be no demand on the graphics card.

(Not the player's graphics card, anyway.)

 

[aris]

Ah! You're right! I had forgot about that. Might create an ugly effect when/if characters casts shadows on walls though... But maybe they have a workaround of that, one possibility would be to render invisible walls where the pre-rendered walls are.

 

[Roguey]

And there were plenty of old games where we could do that. If I could do something in a game released over 20 years ago I sure as hell expect something made today to allow that.

it's fucking core RPG stuff.

Those games were poorly designed pseudo-simulation garbage. You shouldn't be able to opt out of investing in a skill.

Roguey. He won't benefit. Since such locks will be rare

Baseless assumption.

and the Fighter investing in Lockpicking will perfectly be willing to spare a few lock picks for rare cases.

Baseless assumption.

 

[Commissar Draco]

How about shooting locks instead of bashing entire doors? and Did I read right and we won't get the feature NWN 1 got cause Sawyer is some kind of ultra librul?

 

[Infinitron]

I have to say that I still doubt locked doors and chests can be anything but a trivial barrier in a game where you have SIX party members. You only need to invest in ONE specialized lock-picking character to open a locked door or chest. That's just not a lot in the larger scheme of things, no matter how gimped he is.

 

[Infinitron]

How is this any different from what I remember Todd saying: Since Attributes were mostly useless we have decided to reduce them to 3. We are also cutting down the skills, the magical discipline because they are trivial!

Basically instead of fixing things discard them.

Where did I recommend discarding anything?

This is a tough problem, Shrek. Again, in whatever reasonable system you might choose, you still only need ONE character to open locks, or disarm traps, or whatever. One specialized character out of six party members, no matter how gimped he is, is simply not a large price to pay. He still has five buddies to back him up in fights.

 

[Infinitron]

*sigh* Another Shrek reading comprehension failure.