Project GODUS, the ultimate Peter Molyneux fiasco

[skuphundaku]

How many times before you guys get this?:

That's just a different way of saying what I said. But, yeah, that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

[skuphundaku]

There is a obvious disconnect between the quality of Bullfrog titles and Molyneaux's solo stuff, even if you think some of his games were OK (they were not) they cannot hold a candle to the classics like Populous. He obviously was not the great designer he built himself up to be and lot of Bullfrog success was the work of other people which he shamelessly takes credit for when ovepromising (haha) on his latest masterpiece.

I think that his problem revolves around hype. On one hand, he over-hypes his games and has been over-hyping his games ever since Bullfrog kicked the bucket. On the other, he has a massive amount of fanboys that hype his qualities and the qualities of his games. Combine these two and you get a situation in which his games are over-hyped both by him and by his fandom, and when they suck/don't live up to expectations, the large and very vocal fandom doesn't punish him for not delivering and act along the lines of "That was just a hiccup. Pete can do no wrong. He's a legendary developer. His next game will be even better than the ones from his Bullfrog days." If Black & White, Black & White 2, Fable, Fable 2, Fable 3, Project Milo and Curiosity can't make someone see that Molyneaux has no serious developer chops left, then nothing will.

 

[Blaine]

Not enough Macrotransactions and Virtual items you can buy before the game exists to get ya excited?

Ah, the joys of ad hominem and cognitive bias.

Molyneux designed and programmed Populous, produced Syndicate, and was the project lead for Dungeon Keeper, but his track record since the turn of the century has mostly been Fable. In my view, the trouble with Fable isn't that it was over-hyped, but that even disregarding hype and taken for what it is, it's badly designed, casual shovelware—shallow, unchallenging, and uninspired. I haven't played Black & White or its sequel, so I can't speak for those.

I'm pretty much in agreement with evdk here.

 

[Dexter]

Black & White (2001) was pretty good, The Movies (2005) showed promise, Black & White 2 (2005) was decline. They were all PC games and the latter two failed commercially and he had to lay off something between ~50-100 people: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8385 Never played any Fable.
After Microsoft bought his company 2006 all he did was Fable and talk about that creepy kid at some conventions.

 

[Minttunator]

I think that his problem revolves around hype. On one hand, he over-hypes his games and has been over-hyping his games ever since Bullfrog kicked the bucket. On the other, he has a massive amount of fanboys that hype his qualities and the qualities of his games. Combine these two and you get a situation in which his games are over-hyped both by him and by his fandom, and when they suck/don't live up to expectations, the large and very vocal fandom doesn't punish him for not delivering and act along the lines of "That was just a hiccup. Pete can do no wrong. He's a legendary developer. His next game will be even better than the ones from his Bullfrog days." If Black & White, Black & White 2, Fable, Fable 2, Fable 3, Project Milo and Curiosity can't make someone see that Molyneaux has no serious developer chops left, then nothing will.

I guess a lot of people just have trouble letting go, I see the same thing going on with Bioware fanboys. Bioware has now released, I think, 4 unquestionably bad games in a row, but still a lot of fanboys are saying "I'll give them one last chance with DA3 and if that also sucks I won't buy any more Bioware games" - which is the exact same thing they said before ME3, and they'll say the same thing before ME4, etc. I'm thinking the Molyneux fanbase is similar - they are deluding themselves because they don't want to admit that their favourite developer is no longer capable of making good games.

 

[J_C]

He made several classic in the distant past, working in a different company where he either had no say in the development process

Yes, the lead designer of Populous, Dungeon Keeper and other games had no say in development. Makes total sense.

or other people had enough say to stop him from implementing dumb ideas

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe back than he didn't have dumb ideas.

- either way since he became solo his games have been uniformly shit and overhyped disappointments.

Black and White was good, Fable 1 was OK. I don't have blind hate against him just because some of his recent games were overhyped. But as I said, I won't pledge, because I'm not 100% confident either. If the game turns out good, I'll buy it.

There is a obvious disconnect between the quality of Bullfrog titles and Molyneaux's solo stuff, even if you think some of his games were OK (they were not) they cannot hold a candle to the classics like Populous. He obviously was not the great designer he built himself up to be and lot of Bullfrog success was the work of other people which he shamelessly takes credit for when ovepromising (haha) on his latest masterpiece.

Molyneux's solo stuff? What? There were no solo stuff. There is him and the studio he leads, be it Bullfrog or Lionhead. Do you really think that back in the days he was just a talentless hack, who still managed to form and lead those 2 studios to legendary status? If he wasn't a good designer, do you relly think he could have been a lead designer on Poplous or Dungeon Keeper?

I agree that later on he had no counterpoint at the companies, who could have told him to not overpromise and argue against some of the ideas he had. But that doesn't mean that he was a bad designer.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Yeah, projects where boss is a dumbfuck and all the good work is done in spite of him by faceless grunts don't happen, like, ever.

 

[evdk]

Molyneux's solo stuff? What? There were no solo stuff. There is him and the studio he leads, be it Bullfrog or Lionhead. Do you really think that back in the days he was just a talentless hack, who still managed to form and lead those 2 studios to legendary status? If he wasn't a good designer, do you relly think he could have been a lead designer on Poplous or Dungeon Keeper?

I agree that later on he had no counterpoint at the companies, who could have told him to not overpromise and argue against some of the ideas he had. But that doesn't mean that he was a bad designer.

Yes, solo stuff, as in "without Bullfrog", which I thought was obvious from the context, so let's not play the semantics game. Note that Lionheart was always hyped as Peter's new company and used pretty much interchangeably with his own name and that its legendary status is might maybe exist in the minds of its fanboys but certainly not in reality. There is a clear quality drop from Bullfrog's games to those of Lionheart and the only conclusion you can get from that is that Molyneaux was not the sole prime mover in Bullfrog that he has made himself up to be.

And why do I get this feeling that you are using the word "overpromising" seriously? The fucker is less trustworthy than Nixon.

 

[J_C]

There is a clear quality drop from Bullfrog's games to those of Lionheart and the only conclusion you can get from that is that Molyneaux was not the sole prime mover in Bullfrog that he has made himself up to be.

That is very likely. There were probably several talented designers in Bullfrog, who probably helped the games to be awesome. But that doesn't mean that Molyneux is a bad one. It's like saying that Richard Garriot or even MCA is not a good designer because their later work were not the level of Ultima 6-7 and PS:T.

Let's hope that in 22cans there are other people, who have a say that how a game is made, and Molyneux is not the only one.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

Stop discussing Codex, and just give me some money, PLEASE.

 

[Blaine]

Fallen-from-grace content creators are an interesting phenomenon. George Lucas produced a trio of beloved movies, but he was not in total creative control and had no choice but to collaborate with his peers, who challenged his ideas and so on. Once he did gain complete creative control of the franchise (not to mention an ego the size of Jupiter), he blew it. Drastic overuse of CGI with a side effect of wooden performances from actors who couldn't see each other or the scenery, sophomoric writing full of plot holes, baffling and/or shallow character motivations, far too many obnoxious/cutsie characters... what a trainwreck.

In my opinion, the only thing special about people like Lucas and Molyneux is that they've come up with good ideas, were fortunate enough to be in a position that allowed them to convey their ideas into entertainment, and also had very talented creative people working with them to turn their ideas into something grand. Once they decide that their ideas are as rare as diamonds and that they're some sort of be-all, end-all creative prodigy, they stop listening to their peers and start cranking out shit.

Plenty of creative people (or even fairly average people) have amazing ideas that the world might find entertaining and/or enlightening, but most never see the light of day for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the person who imagined them likes their day job, isn't interested in the entertainment business to begin with, simply never finds the right "in" to the gaming/film/publishing industry, or the team they assemble to realize their ideas is mediocre and the final product falls flat.

 

[J_C]

Fallen-from-grace content creators are an interesting phenomenon. George Lucas produced a trio of beloved movies, but he was not in total creative control and had no choice but to collaborate with his peers, who challenged his ideas and so on. Once he did gain complete creative control of the franchise (not to mention an ego the size of Jupiter), he blew it. Drastic overuse of CGI with a side effect of wooden performances from actors who couldn't see each other or the scenery, sophomoric writing full of plot holes, baffling and/or shallow character motivations, far too many obnoxious/cutsie characters... what a trainwreck.

In my opinion, the only thing special about people like Lucas and Molyneux is that they've come up with good ideas, were fortunate enough to be in a position that allowed them to convey their ideas into entertainment, and also had very talented creative people working with them to turn their ideas into something grand. Once they decide that their ideas are as rare as diamonds and that they're some sort of be-all, end-all creative prodigy, they stop listening to their peers and start cranking out shit.

Plenty of creative people (or even fairly average people) have amazing ideas that the world might find entertaining and/or enlightening, but most never see the light of day for a variety of reasons. Perhaps the person who imagined them likes their day job, isn't interested in the entertainment business to begin with, simply never finds the right "in" to the gaming/film/publishing industry, or the team they assemble to realize their ideas is mediocre and the final product falls flat.

That's why I'm saying we shouldn't hate this project immediately. Molyneux has a new studio, this time maybe there are other designers who will challange his ideas if those are too wacky. Furthermore, looking at the pitch video, part of it was about a other guy, who constantly corrected Molyneux when he promised too much. Obviously that was just for show, but it might show us that this time Molyneux is not the only brain there.

 

[evdk]

That's why I'm saying we shouldn't hate this project immediately. Molyneux has a new studio, this time maybe there are other designers who will challange his ideas if those are too wacky. Furthermore, looking at the pitch video, part of it was about a other guy, who constantly corrected Molyneux when he promised too much. Obviously that was just for show, but it might show us that this time Molyneux is not the only brain there.

I don't know. His ego is greater then ever before (see for example his ridiculous Curiosity interviews) and the team is built around him, which was not the case in the Bullfrog days. I very much doubt anyone's ability, or indeed desire to reign him in now. You can certainly hope, but I've lost all faith in him playing B&W.

 

[J_C]

Well, I will just wait and see. If he screws this up, he is lost to me.

 

[Mortmal]

Dexter i am well aware of history, and i know that after EA everything went to shit as usual, although black and white and the movie were good game. I knew some guy at lionhead , black and white 2 had terrible ratings and he was devastated cause of it, they do care of their games ,trust me. Then they were bought by microsoft and lost half their staff, another step into decline.
Fable games were overhyped, from project ego you end up with a very casual mainstream game with not 1% of the feature promised, still its not the worst thing on xbox. I have no idea what become of the creepy kid with kinect , was it even released ? Anyway maybe without microsoft pressure they may end up with something less spectacular graphicaly with good gameplay, thats all i am asking for.

 

[kaizoku]

I wouldn't pledge to this, but since it's a multiplayer game, I won't pledge to this even more.

If it does happen to be a good game, maybe I'll buy it when it's out.

 

[Destroid]

Why on earth are there so many people working there when all they've made is that silly cube game?

 

[Blaine]

It's just a rent-a-crowd. Really there's only Molyneux with his last shred of credibility, that curly-haired milquetoast with his iPad, and an accountant named Bergman or Goldstein who'll transfer the final take to overseas accounts before ol' Pete retires to south America, living well off the crushed dreams of people who were foolish enough to still believe he could produce anything worthwhile.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/11/22/interview-peter-molyneux-on-curiositys-failings-godus/

RPS: You’ve also made mention of the culmination of the 22 experiments as your “final game,” though. So is that really the ultimate goal here? Is this your swan song?

Molyneux: Yes… Well, I didn’t really explain that. I’m one of those human beings who’s surprised he’s still alive every time he wakes up in the morning. I think I will be doing games until the day I die. I can’t see that, at this rate, the way I’m burning through my life… I don’t see that I’ll be alive much longer. That’s one thing.

 

[Gragt]

There is a obvious disconnect between the quality of Bullfrog titles and Molyneaux's solo stuff, even if you think some of his games were OK (they were not) they cannot hold a candle to the classics like Populous. He obviously was not the great designer he built himself up to be and lot of Bullfrog success was the work of other people which he shamelessly takes credit for when ovepromising (haha) on his latest masterpiece.

It might also have to do with the people he worked with at Bullfrog. I know little of his actual work there but I know that in the arts some great artists need some people to offer criticism and help shape their work. One exemple would be Akira Kurosawa who had a tendency to do too much and go for the grandiose and he recognised that he needed collaborators to help him tone it down and keep it simple. It might be that this is what happened at Bullfrog, and he came out of it with a reputation as a genius (always a trite thing to say) and no one to tell him that some of ideas were silly or that they wouldn't work in the way he envisioned them. Or he was simply clueless about what made his work great and was dart throwing all this time — something that happens far more in the arts than people realise. That or he really was a charlatan all along.

 

[Metro]

I might donate if we get to see more of the blonde girl in that creepy virtual kid video. Fable 1 was okay (for the $2.50 I paid for it) but extremely generic and not even remotely challenging. It could have been much better but they wasted time putting in pointless nonsense like gestures and a trading economy that made absolutely no sense in the context of the game.

 

[evdk]

I might donate if we get to see more of the blonde girl in that creepy virtual kid video.

Wouldn't hiring a prostitute be cheaper?

 

[Metro]

Depends on the conversion rates!

 

[Kz3r0]

So the visionary genius of worldwide fame when going to Kickstarter plays safe with his best known game instead of dazzling people with some unearthly concept more flashy than the burst of a 100000000000 supernovae?
Henkel should take note.

 

[Wise Emperor]

Hey Peter, I've got something for You...