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Quigs/EvoG/Solik/D4's small reviews of OB

Micmu

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EvoG said:
Guards can see through walls and floors? No.
Then I was misinformed - somebody said that you're "caught stealing" even when you're not in sight - if you're not in sneak mode (like in DF).
EvoG said:
Besides you can't really 'direct' items too easily(to kick into corners), so it would be more effort than its worth. My stealth is at 50, so I was able to sneak behind a guard and pickpocket his two castle keys most deftly without being caught. Anyway, NPC's follow you around their shops/houses if you stray from their sight, so unless said corner was 'around' a corner, they'd catch you stealing it one way or the other, dark or otherwise..
They follow you around? This sounds great. But don't they mind when you walk into their private quarters?
 

EvoG

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micmu said:
They follow you around? This sounds great. But don't they mind when you walk into their private quarters?


Yea really. :D IIRC, the NPC's didn't like you snooping around in their things, even if they did let you wander as well.

In any event, I just case a joint I want to steal from, waiting for the owner to leave, then off I go, anxious to snoop undetered. Good stuff...like I said that jewelery store has me itching...but I know that lock is going to be impossible for me to pick this early on.( I think they were all very hard status).
 

Balor

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About eyes: actually, I kinda like that bit.
Ever heard of saccades? They actually did it right.
 

EvoG

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Actually yes they did that more right than most games even slightly attempt, and even then its a floaty-eye nightmare. It was the first thing my girlfriend noticed when I was chatting it up with an NPC.

Whenever I got a character with actual animatable eyes, I made sure that I animated the saccades which REALLY brings the character to life...I mean day and night difference.
 

Data4

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Well, I guess this thread is as good a place as any to give my little minireview. I've played about 3 hours, so admittedly, I'm not covering a lot here. Also, I'm no writer, so bear with my grammaticaluarities. Or something.

The Good:

With the problems people have had with Soft Shadows-gate, I have to say that the environment detail of interior spaces is quite good. It's hard to describe in specifics, but the general feeling is that yes, they did take criticism about Morrowind's caves and dungeons to heart. The "tutorial dungeon" offers a mix of old gothic-style archways, natural caverns, and sewers featuring a more generic medieval style masonry. All the buzzwords (parallax mapping, normal mapping, etc.) were put to good use in these instances.

After I left the first dungeon, I immediately made my way around to the Imperial City. Once there, I just kind of wandered around, and only went inside two places within the city-- the newspaper place and the Tiber Septim hotel. As EvoG said, interiors are great, and in the case of the hotel, cavernous. Manor houses in Morrowind seemed too small for their descriptors, but in the case of the hotel, it was huge. The sense of scale is much better than in Morrowind, as the exterior models of buildings closely match the interior spaces. That was one of my biggest beefs with Morrowind.

The last place I went was a little waterfront shantytown outside of the Imperial city. One of the first things that impressed me was when entering one guy's house, he got up from his chair and approached me pretty quickly. It gave a real sense of "Hey, what are you doing just walking into my home like that?" even though the NPC didn't actually say that.

Combat is... well, it's improved since Morrowind, but if you've just recently played MW like I have, it's VERY EASY to find yourself slipping into that mindless click-click-click routine. Once I overcame that tendency and actually used Blocking and squared off with the mob I faced, the experience became much more enjoyable than the previous game. I won't toss words out like "kinetics" and "visceral", as I really think the value of the combat lies strictly in the eye of the beholder.

Okay, time for the Bad. And yes there are some bad points here which have already been mentioned before, but I'll say them anyway. I won't, however, go into graphics glitches, since I haven't experienced very many. There was some texture tiling on a distant hill, but other than that, my experience there is on par with most other people.

First, foremost, and the one I think Bethesda needs to be taken to task over hardcore is the interface. It's absolute ass. Remember all those user-created pictures making fun of it-- particularly the inventory showing only a few items at a time? Yeah, those are all true. This is pure console garbage, and this really, really god damn fucking infuriates me. Didn't Deus Ex Invisible War teach the industry a lesson? Hell, even the PC port of Fable had a decent interface tailored to the PC. Whoever did this fucked up, piece of horseshit interface needs to have a pineapple imbedded with rusty fishhooks shoved up their ass a few thousand times. This interface is the epitome of incompetence. I don't know what in the fuck Howard and Co. were thinking here, but the dumbfuck that let this one slip by QA needs his ass fired and blacklisted from the industry. I'm not being too harsh, either.

Okay, now that THAT is out of the way, the next thing that bugs me is the dynamic conversations. Okay, I understand the purpose was to add atmosphere to the game and I respect the effort. The execution leaves much to be desired. Most all of the exchanges I've heard follow this pattern:

NPC1: "[NPC name] is a fine [profession name]. You can't go wrong with him/her for all of your [what the profession caters to] needs"

NPC2: "Indeed. You can always count on [NPC name]"

NPC1: "Goodbye."

NPC2: "Be seeing you."

It gets old. FAST. Like I said, I've only played for about 3 hours, and I'm already sick of it. Other examples include two sets of two NPCs on opposite sides of the street having the EXACT SAME CONVERSATION. And of course, my favorite is the "The fighter's guild is hiring. It's a good way to make some extra money... if you have the stones for it." ("stones" is a euphemism for "balls" WOMEN DON'T HAVE BALLS!!... except for stalin_brando's choice o' chicka, but I digress)

Human characters are okay. Khajiit and Argonians look fine, IMO. However, orcs and elves don't just look ugly... they look fucking ugly x 100. Dark Elves' textures are hideous. Not "Wow, that race of beings is rather unattractive" hideous, either. I'm talking shitty artwork. FaceGen's limitations are all too apparant, here. I would rather have the super-model look of Better Heads for Morrowind than this garbage.

For all the hype over soil erosion, I'm just not seeing much of an improvement over Morrowind's terrain. Of course, I've only been around the immediate vicinity of the Imperial City, but I'm just not seeing a whole lot of improvement there (for those wondering, all my settings are maxed out, with a resolution of 1024 x 768). I expected to see little details, such as the shader effects in Far Cry of the water ebbing and flowing on the shores. Hills and terrain features just don't look all that rugged.

Anyway, that's all I have to say at this point. I'll add or clarify as I've played more.

-D4
 

Twinfalls

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Quigs said:
I went in a mages guild, pulled out a great hammer, and just knocked all their glass alchemy sets off of tables, counters, etc.

Had no real effect, I dont even think they noticed.

RADIANT!!!

And all NPCs will let you wander into their homes and even bedchambers, without expressing any concern?

RADIANT!!!

I thought Bethesda had played Gothic and realised how well those guys were doing things... oh well.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading the reviews, Quigs, EvoG and D4. EvoG has actually got me considering playing this sucker.

One question - how frequently do you find the 'loading area' message popping up, when travelling from one place to another? It looks damn distracting, and a really daft decision (instead of just putting an hourglass icon in the corner somewhere)....
 

RK47

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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Good read, keep up the hype for me. :)
 

Data4

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Twinfalls said:
Quigs said:
I went in a mages guild, pulled out a great hammer, and just knocked all their glass alchemy sets off of tables, counters, etc.

Had no real effect, I dont even think they noticed.

RADIANT!!!

And all NPCs will let you wander into their homes and even bedchambers, without expressing any concern?

RADIANT!!!

I thought Bethesda had played Gothic and realised how well those guys were doing things... oh well.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading the reviews, Quigs, EvoG and D4. EvoG has actually got me considering playing this sucker.

One question - how frequently do you find the 'loading area' message popping up, when travelling from one place to another? It looks damn distracting, and a really daft decision (instead of just putting an hourglass icon in the corner somewhere)....

I noticed the messages at first, but then I got used to them and hardly even notice it. Unlike Morrowind, there's no real pause. The message comes up and stays up for half a second and is gone. I think if there was a way to mod that message out, it wouldn't even be an issue.

EDIT: I knew I forgot something, and unfortunately it's another for the Bad. You can successfully sneak up behind a baddie in the dark and whack 'im dead.... WHILE HOLDING A 5000 CANDLEWATT TORCH. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

-D4
 

Venom

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Data4 said:
EDIT: I knew I forgot something, and unfortunately it's another for the Bad. You can successfully sneak up behind a baddie in the dark and whack 'im dead.... WHILE HOLDING A 5000 CANDLEWATT TORCH. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

-D4
Well, when I use the Starlight spell, people can spot me, monsters too. With a torch...people can spot me...monsters however don't.

So yeah, it's weird.
 

Twinfalls

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Data4 said:
EDIT: I knew I forgot something, and unfortunately it's another for the Bad. You can successfully sneak up behind a baddie in the dark and whack 'im dead.... WHILE HOLDING A 5000 CANDLEWATT TORCH. Just. Doesn't. Make. Sense.

-D4

So 'Radiant AI' does not even detect RADIANCE!

Thanks for the other info.
 

Venom

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The absolute worst:


The Dark Brotherhood sanctuary is filled with guardian monsters who attack outsiders....but since I am in the DB, even as I killed my fellow brothers the monsters walked by, watched...then moved on.
 

Xi

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I think a lot of folks got the AI concept wrong. Thanks to the hype of course. The thing I like about it is that it's unpredictable. Sometimes I'm surprised by how brutally challenging an encounter can be and other times I'm wondering why they were running into the side of the rock and not running around it. Either way, I have been pleasently surprised many times.

When I enter someone's house(with my personality of 30 and 5 speechcraft) NPC's threaten to attack me or call the guards. NPCs follow you around and pretty much never leave you alone if they don't trust you. :shrug:

If you read the inbetween messages one of them explains that having a torch or a spell of light will make you much more detectable by NPCs/monsters. When I use a light spell I'm generally detected before I even see the NPC/Monster. When I'm sneaking I usually see them before this happens, but if I am not they usually catch me off guard. Depends on the situation, but it's part of that unpredictability. Good or Bad? Hard to say.

Conversations do tend to repeat, but I'm not finding that I dislike them or that they are annoying. I was pretty amazed to see some NPC's talking about how I had liberated Kvatch from the Deadric Invasion. So, it does have it's upsides. I even heard them talking about how the Nerevar had left Vvardenfell.(I forget where they say he/she went) Overall, it's something that has never been done on this scale before. It does help to breath some of the believability into it. :shrug:
 

Section8

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Conversations do tend to repeat, but I'm not finding that I dislike them or that they are annoying. I was pretty amazed to see some NPC's talking about how I had liberated Kvatch from the Deadric Invasion. So, it does have it's upsides. I even heard them talking about how the Nerevar had left Vvardenfell.(I forget where they say he/she went) Overall, it's something that has never been done on this scale before. It does help to breath some of the believability into it. :shrug:

Do they do it in "cute" British accents that make them sound like Wallace and Gromit characters? That's certainly been done before.
 

EvoG

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Hour 19, level 7, and I made it to 'footpad' rank in the thieves guild and I'm becoming more of a stealth ninja archer. Finally found a very nice bow (non-magic) in an unexpected place while doing some misc. spelunking, and I'm noticing now that I'm not being detected right away after my first stealth shot from a distance, so I am plunking away from the shadows with some sweet continuous 3x damage hits.

I still have yet to do the first quest for the main story.

I really do not enjoy riding horses at all, as the camera motion is too abrupt and unnatural (is it THAT hard to play Shadow of the Collossus and try to achieve just SOME of that motion? Or better yet, tether the camera to the player with a bit of dampening so there's some inertia..gah).

Anyway, Twin and the rest, the one thing to perhaps consider is that its really a well made game as a whole. If you take each element and pick it apart, it'll make it sound worse than it is. Every issue that anyone has ever mentioned IS there, but its insignificant in the grand scheme of the game. I use the word "issue", as really, as a game(If you take offense to the game being called an RPG, because it doesn't jive with your sensibilities of what an RPG is, look at it as a videogame and nothing more.), its built well (no not perfect) and is honestly fun. As they say about Monet, you have to step back to really appreciate the painting as a whole. I'm not comparing Oblivion to so called masterpiece art, but you can appreciate the meaning.

Now I know the word fun is subjective, so to put it as simply as possible:

  • If you generally like first/third person games, and you like melee, magic and bow combat, and you enjoy exploring a huge world (without "levels") at your whim and leisure with tons of things to do and find, then there's a very good chance you'll like this game. Its very reminiscient of GTA I just realised.
  • If you're looking for dialog like FO's or Arcanum's, and thats a deal breaker, move on. Personally I think thats unrealistic and ultimately limiting yourself. No game has yet to have the rich dialog those games have.

If you guys have more questions, feel free to ask. I'm being fairly objective and as I stated above, I did not expect to like it as much as I do. I'm not being sensationalistic for the sake of t3h phun33 and trying to give an honest assesment as a devote hater of Morrowind. :D
 

DarkUnderlord

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Radiant AI failes to be radiant? CHECK.

EvoG said:
I really do not enjoy riding horses at all, as the camera motion is too abrupt and unnatural (is it THAT hard to play Shadow of the Collossus and try to achieve just SOME of that motion? Or better yet, tether the camera to the player with a bit of dampening so there's some inertia..gah).
Horses suck? CHECK.

EvoG said:
If you generally like first/third person games, and you like melee, magic and bow combat, and you enjoy exploring a huge world (without "levels") at your whim and leisure with tons of things to do and find, then there's a very good chance you'll like this game. Its very reminiscient of GTA I just realised.
Little more than a beefed up Morrowind? CHECK

Do we win prizes?

EvoG said:
I'm not being sensationalistic for the sake of t3h phun33 and trying to give an honest assesment as a devote hater of Morrowind. :D
Why is it that you hate Morrowind yet like Oblivion? Can you pin it down to anything in particular or is it just a feeling?
 

EvoG

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DarkUnderlord said:
Why is it that you hate Morrowind yet like Oblivion? Can you pin it down to anything in particular or is it just a feeling?

Things I hated about Morrowind:

  • World was completely lifeless short of pacing NPC's.
  • World was terribly drab.
  • The wiki had no indicators that the NPC would say something you already heard, leaving a giant mess of keywords to ask about.
  • There was no connectivity in the combat; it felt completely detached. You didn't hit the opponent and the opponent didn't seem to hit you, yet clearly this is what was happening.
  • The dungeons/misc. locations didn't appear to fit the location making them feel random.
  • I only made it as far as some desert town and some slave camp, and neither the NPC's nor the quests ( I tried to join the Blades) seemed very compelling.

Morrowind is clearly Oblivions predecessor, but they've managed to make the world bright and vibrant. Combat feels like real gameplay and the graphics do aid immensely in that sense of exploration, as is expected(hard to truly enjoy exploring a world where the fog is 100 feet away).

Oblivion may not be an RPG in the traditional sense as we've defined it here, but gives way to a great sense of exploration and freedom. People discount this as ancillary to everything else but in fact its a big part of being connected to the world. I also tend to really enjoy combat as well as sneaking about snooping where I dont belong and finding/stealing stuff(both mechanics of which are fun). While the dialog is again, nowhere near the sheer scope of FO or Arcanum, it serves the purpose of telling their stories. This is not a bad thing in the least. Just as you find reading a book (linearly) and enjoying a tale, thats exactly what you get here.

So far some of the misc. quests I've done(MINOR NON-MAIN QUEST SPOILERS):

  • Revealed to a merchant that his wares are ill gotten from a graverobber, as his prices were undercutting the other merchants in the city, making business difficult for them.
  • Investigated a corrupt watchmen, got two witnesses to testify and had him sent to jail.
  • Discovered the location of the Gray Fox (entry to the thieves guild) by talking with the local beggars.
  • Investigated the murder of an alledged vampire by an alledged vampire hunter.
  • Came to aid two ex-lovers/small time thieves, one who was rotting in jail for murder and the other looking to find where he hid the gold he stole.
  • Recovered the meager taxes(for the thieves guild) the Imperial City collected from the poor on the waterfront by breaking into the a guard tower while the watch commander was doing his rounds.
  • Attempted to remove a witch from a nearby cave who was raising the local undead, driving business away from the roadside inn.

Each of these were multi-tiered and involved tailing NPC's, searching houses/rooms for a particular item/evidence, searching abroad in the wilderness and even getting arrested. The narrative written for these quests and spoken by the plot NPC's was very well done, interesting and succinct. I most assuredly would've loved to have dialog be the sole way for me to manipulate an NPC intelligently to get them to aid me or trust me, but its not like I'm missing it either. The stories were still told and were still very interesting.

I'm sure the year of hype really oversold a lot of what Bethesda felt was what was going to 'make' Oblivion the must have game, and while its less than they glossed over, as a game...what it is that you get when you play it...is all very well done. Radiant AI does not deserve a name as its really not all that you were sold, but it does do what you were told, if that makes sense. Its not "smart", therefore not AI, but it does have a greater level of world reactivity which is more than most games have. The graphics issues that people have noted ARE there, but when you consider the scope of what the engine is rendering, on top of the simulation of the game world, it IS impressive. Put this into perspective; it may not be as OMFG as it might have been hyped, but it IS head and shoulders above most games. Its less about a level of photorealism like Condemned or GRAW, and more about the composition of object density, atmospheric effects, lighting and nature. Yes the NPC's aren't that great and yes there is pop-in and yes the distant terrain is a muddy and poor LOD, it still all looks very cool as a whole.

If you guys are really geared up not to play it out of some code of RPG ethics or because you'd lose your codex "street cred", fine. If you sincerely want something to play that will keep you busy for a REALLY long time and be pretty satisfying to play as a game, then just buy it, play it and dont tell anyone. :)


Cheers
 

NeVeRLiFt

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Quigs said:
Not a problem. I dont mind laughing at you for being raped up the ass for paying too much to play the same game.

WTF?!?!

I got the Reloaded release of Oblivion and it's a pitty you got raped up the ass by MS and now Bethesda. Only a retarded kid or some poor chummer who can't afford a real PC would buy a Xbox and then a POS dumbed RPG for it. :roll:
 

Twinfalls

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Yeah, must say that EvoG's posts have demonstrated by far the most eloquent reasoning in support of the game. Much better than any of the gushing reviews..

Evo - you do understand the basis of my picking the game apart though... as someone very fond of Daggerfall, it's the natural response to seeing the roleplaying taken away from my favourite crpg setting, as well as it being robbed of that great atmosphere and 'look and feel', and being dumbed down and cheapened in all manner of ways.

Makes getting and enjoying the game just for what it is - an enjoyable exploration/dungeon romp - that much more difficult you see.
 

Data4

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After putting a couple more hours into the game, I'm going to have to generally agree with EvoG. If you compare Oblivion to Fallout and Arcanum, it sucks, but on its own, it's an okay game.

I don't think disliking it is as much a cred-maintaining Codex thing as it is a statement against CRPG trends in general. Buying the game is an implicit sanctioning of what the developers are doing, and some of those things just doesn't sit well with people. My biggest issue with the game, for example, is the consolified interface. I'll be bitching about this one until it's fixed, if ever. As a PC gamer, I expect to be able to do things like bind any of my 101 keys to game functions, resize UI elements, and do other customizing tweaks that PC games have allowed players to do for years. It is absolutely reprehensible that Bethesda could possibly think they could get away with the shit they pulled without an outcry. Even the worst RPG in recorded history (Fable) featured a PC interface that made sense for a PC. Granted, there was a year between the XBox and PC releases, but I just don't see how allocating a small team to make a PC interface would be THAT big of a strain on the overall development.

Anyway, I think I'll give it a percentage rating and say 75% overall, with a majority of the -25% going towards that asstastic UI.

-D4
 

EvoG

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Twinfalls said:
Evo - you do understand the basis of my picking the game apart though...


No I really do, and I agree, but only so much. I think I'm in a unique position sometimes because I like games period, not just particular genres, or even certain games within certain genres. What I've been trying to impress upon people is that if you look to fit Oblivion into a category of your defining, you won't be happy with it. If you look to play Oblivion as a game, and play it for what IT is, its perfectly wonderful, and thats hard to get across.

When I approach a new game, I'm already initially intrigued by the world, the graphics and the 'expected' gameplay. I dont ask myself if its like game X or game Y, I judge it initally on what its offering. Assuming that enthusasm lasts through to going gold, I'll buy it, and expect to play what the game is offering me, not expecting to play what I expect the game to offer me. Does that make sense? If there's a new dynamic to how they do bows or stealth or picklocks, I learn it and judge if I'll like it by its own merit. I dont care about anything other than if the game is giving me a satisfaction playing it. I dont care if it doesn't do its 'thing' like another game, only that it does its thing in a fun way, as thats ultimately the bottom line...fun.

Data, I agree that you're giving developers the high signals that yes we want more of this, but there are also two things to consider; Oblivion is a fun game, so just because it isn't ideal doesn't mean it doesn't have value...it most certainly does. Secondly, and many wont want to hear this, but being a democratic process, in this case spoken with sales, LOTS of people enjoy this kind of gameplay. So regardless of how it may be far less cerebral than our classics, it still brings enjoyment to many people. Our community is small...not RPG communities, but the RPG communities that share a love of the classical gaming and want to see that kind of narrative and depth again. I most certainly want to develop a game with todays dressings but with yesteryears glow of substance, and that will happen (albeit slowly right now). To look towards the big developers/publishers though to do this is futile...and not because they hate us, but because they need to sell more copies. Yes it sounds 'cheap' but its also painfully rational. So, as said above, consider that while a game like Oblivion won't fit the agreed ideal here, it in and of itself is a very well made "game". It does what it set out to do, and while not to the high marks set by the PR department, in no way does it fail to entertain.
 

Twinfalls

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Evo I like games of all genres too.

It's just that this one is hard for a fan of Daggerfall. If this was a completely new game in a different game-world which didn't use the setting and original work of the Daggerfall team, instead of selling itself as the next in the same series, then I probably wouldn't have much criticism at all (except in response to the wanktastic hype).

Anyway, keep the observations/opinions coming, interesting to read.
 

Data4

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EvoG, that's very true what you're saying about a game's commercial success versus what a small percentage of people expect. A few people refusing to support a trend really has no impact in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I completely understand the business side of wanting to appeal to as many people as possible so the most units can be sold. Businesses exist to turn a profit. Products and services are secondary, no matter how important we as consumers think they are.

Still, it's frustrating to see how a genre we love is basically metamorphisizing before our eyes. Eventually, the definition of "RPG" will change to this new 75% player skill / 25% character skill mix. If it continues like it is, I can see a day in the near future when Dungeon Siege will become the new Fallout/Arcanum, with people longing for those days of roleplaying goodness.

Accepting mediocrity is a painful thing.

-D4
 

EvoG

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Twinfalls said:
Evo I like games of all genres too.

Well sure, that was more of a me thing than you thing. :)

Twinfalls said:
It's just that this one is hard for a fan of Daggerfall. If this was a completely new game in a different game-world which didn't use the setting and original work of the Daggerfall team, instead of selling itself as the next in the same series, then I probably wouldn't have much criticism at all (except in response to the wanktastic hype).

Fine, and I agree with the sentiment. I was working on Ultima X Online a few years back (remember EA canned it so... :( ) and I too sorta felt bad that what I was animating and what was being created was not Ultima even spritually, just in name. The characters were fun and the work was great, but we weren't creating an 'Ultima'.

No I hear ya and know what you mean.

Twinfalls said:
Anyway, keep the observations/opinions coming, interesting to read.

I'm rather enjoying jumping in the game for several hours(god the time I've spent already amounts to more than I spend beating most other games, GRAW most recently in 15 hours), discovering stuff and then running to tell someone, so thank you, I will. :D
 

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