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Quigs/EvoG/Solik/D4's small reviews of OB

EvoG

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Joined
Mar 25, 2003
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Chicago
Data4 said:
Still, it's frustrating to see how a genre we love is basically metamorphisizing before our eyes. Eventually, the definition of "RPG" will change to this new 75% player skill / 25% character skill mix. If it continues like it is, I can see a day in the near future when Dungeon Siege will become the new Fallout/Arcanum, with people longing for those days of roleplaying goodness.


Well see, its sincerely not THAT bad either. Dungeon Siege was not developed by an "RPG" team. Chris Taylor is an RTS guy, so DS is just that, but with a tiny party rather than large units. All of Bioware's and Obsidan's games (except Jade Empire) are character skill games. Then again, I'm not really too concerned personally about the whole player skill/character skill debate, as my all time favorite game period is System Shock 2, and thats a hybrid of both skillsets as you know, and our boys at Irrational are cooking up something I'm terribly thrilled with with Bioshock.

As sensational as it is to say its all doom and gloom, there are really some great games coming out in the near future, and DS is FAR from representative of the new order...it just sold well. More important than turn-based combat is interesting stories with flexible narrative and world interaction density. Those are more important than a to-hit-roll any day of the week for me.
 

Data4

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Sep 11, 2005
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Over there.
Well, to be honest, I'm not all that crazy about turn based combat, either. I actually liked NWN's system. Others don't and that's fine. I have a more loose definition of RPG than the Codex standard. Plus, I love games in general, too. I figure if I don't enjoy Oblivion as a RPG, I can LOVE it as an action/exploration game. Besides, the Septim coin makes a great paperweight. ;)

-D4
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
28,518
EvoG said:
I think I'm in a unique position sometimes because I like games period, not just particular genres, or even certain games within certain genres.
I think that's a bit unfair. I mean hell, I'd wager 99% of people on the Codex like "games" in general and aren't devoted to any one particular genre. I think the reason we come here though is because we're not getting something, "that RPG thing" which we really want. The problem is when games come along that try and claim to be "that RPG thing" and turn out to be nothing like it. In Oblivion's case, it was a sign of yet another pseudo-RPG coming along to convince yet more children that games like Grand Theft Auto are actually RPGs, so go right ahead and slap that label on it.

I know a few people (myself included) have said we'd get Oblivion and enjoy it "for what it is". That is, a nice free-roaming GTA style game, just with swords and spells. Having a go at the hype machine is standard Codex fare though and I agree with you that while Oblivion delivers that presumably as well as Morrowind did, there was a fuckload of hype that almost set Oblivion up as the the second coming.

Either way, it doesn't bode well for Fallout 3.
 

fizzelopeguss

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Messages
954
Location
Equality Street.
EvoG said:
If you sincerely want something to play that will keep you busy for a REALLY long time and be pretty satisfying to play as a game, then just buy it, play it and dont tell anyone.

I think that's what many of us feel, i knew it was gonna be a decent game, much better than most of the crap out there, BUT most of the hype was ridiculous and downright bullshit and we saw right through it. This is what most of the fanboys didn't realise before they spammed the hell out of the codex. :P
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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DarkUnderlord said:
I know a few people (myself included) have said we'd get Oblivion and enjoy it "for what it is". That is, a nice free-roaming GTA style game, just with swords and spells.

And with jacking horses, and carry wounded people to temples for healing, and capture criminals for the authorities, and ride ships across the sea, and fly into the air and oh snap. I feel its a bit of an exageration to refer to it as a 'free-roaming GTA style game' considering you could just get by with calling it 'free-roaming' and have it suggest one of the mainstays of its gameplay. The primary reason I feel it's uncalled for is that the free-roaming in GTA often has unique and worthwhile side missions or events players can engage in that define the GTA experience; something that doesn't quite define the Elder Scrolls experience.
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
My impressions thus far are pretty much spon-on with EvoG's. I'm also liking the interface, actually. I like that it's big; possibly I have eyesight issues, but either way, I like that you can crank up the resolution and still be able to read everything. The way useful information about items is listed next to the name is a big improvement from the icon-based inventory of Morrowind. I can very easily compare the objects I'm carrying around, find what I'm looking for, adjust my equipment, and move on.

It did take me a bit to get used to the new interface (no surprise there), but less than an hour overall. I don't really find it to be a "console" interface -- I mean, it's tabbed. I would prefer, though, that the F1-F4 function key usage to bring up certain parts of the interface be mappable to keys. Since that functionality isn't even described in the manual (it's in the readme as an addition), it was probably tacked on at the last minute. Maybe that means a patch later on will make it mappable. Would be nice. I also wish the map was zoomable.

Attention to detail varies. For instance, I can't wear clothes underneath my armor now, but I can see rings and such when I equip them. Hair is ugly again, but the eyes are great. NPCs each have far less to say than previous games, but they repeat each other less often (or maybe that's just a perception thanks to the graying-out?). The compass thus far has proven to be a boon without keeping me from doing the actual work with the quests; however, I haven't explored the wilderness yet (I'm still in the Imperial City), so I can't yet judge how it works with dungeons and such nearby.

I'm loving the combat. The Arena really shows it off. I have to get in and really play, and yet the results are still mostly influenced by character ability. All in all, it is, to me, what Gothic's combat should have been. I'm looking forward to playing other types of characters now. Magic looks really fun compared to both of the previous TES games I've played.

Can't judge the stealth. My character is a stealth-focused custom class, but that's just because I got the personality skills, light armor, and security (I'm playing a swashbuckler-style character). So, my sneaking ability is basically nonexistant.

Lockpicking and persuasion seem alright. They're not crazy reflex games at all. I'm finding Persuasion too easy with the Apprentice-level bonus, though; I've yet to fail. You don't really "click wedges" -- you simply click the options sorta like on the E3 video, only now there's little meters to accompany the facial expressions (which contain different information). I'm wondering if some NPCs will be harder to persuade than others. Luckily, there's a "max disposition" per NPC (for Persuasion, at least -- other activities can still improve their disposition further). I have no idea what it's based on, but I have a feeling Personality stat affects it. No idea if Persuasion skill does.

Face coloration is bad. Lip-synching is good. Equipment and foliage textures are fantastic. Sitting down is awkward, because it pulls you out of first-person. I've completed one quest and am halfway through another, and both of these are much more involved than Morrowind's quests were. However, I had some issues with the first--


MINOR SPOILER WARNING




I was supposed to follow this guy, and I did, and he met with this other guy. However, nothing happened. So, I followed the other guy, discovered what he was doing, and had the answer to the quest -- but I couldn't find any way to trigger it. My journal was still at the "follow guy 1" point, so I went back and did that again, this time without him seeing me (the first time I bumped into him a couple times at area-loading points). I approached them, which seemed like a stupid thing to do, and it triggered the next event as if I was still totally hidden, which I wasn't. The next leg of the quest had me repeat what I'd already done regarding the second guy, only this time, I got journal updates each step of the way. So, at least with this quest, there was still some annoying linearity that wasn't necessary. However, that complaint is vastly overshadowed by how enjoyable it was overall compared to quests in most games I've played. Once I get more comfortable with the "game rules" on how these quests all work, I don't think I'll have that difficulty again.




END SPOILER


So, I've put about 5-6 hours in so far, and I'm really loving it. It was everything I expected it to be (noting that I didn't have the ridiculously overhyped expectations of some people -- just standard, mature, genuine excitement for what really is a good game). There were a few surprises, too. I've barely scratched the surface, so I can't wait to see what else I can find.
 

Quigs

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Anyway, a slight change.

Last night, found a location unmarked by my compass, which gave me a "Greater Power".

Like, in the original morrowind, how when you chose your class or sign, you could do this one power once a day? Gave me one of those. Pretty damn cool place, out in the middle of nowhere too.
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
Quigs said:
Anyway, a slight change.

Last night, found a location unmarked by my compass, which gave me a "Greater Power".

How'd you find it? Pure chance, or a hint from an NPC or book?
 

Quigs

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Complete and pure chance. Just wandering around. Whenever possible, I prefer to walk in games, rather then fast travel. for all I know, it might be part of a later quest, but I hope not.
 

Rulion

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bath salt city
I've been playing the game for a couple days now, and decided I might as well post my own review of it too. I agree with a lot of what Quigs and EvoG posted. Gaming-wise, my tastes are also pretty similar to Evo's; I love old school games. You guys introduced me to Fallout back when I registered a couple years ago and it was great. I played Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 prior to discovering the Codex, and they're two of my favourite games. I went on a binge of older games when you guys told me about Underdogs - Darklands, Betrayal at Krondor, etc. At the same time, I've been playing Counter-Strike and Counter-Strike: Source since 2000, so I'm not a stranger to FPS's. Lastly, hated Morrowind. Shit, what the hell did I just type? My gaming credentials? Anyway, that's me.

First off, Oblivion turned out to be a lot more fun than I first expected. No, it's not an RPG intensive game - but hey, you all knew that. For what it is, it's a lot of fun. And you know what? It's one of the better games to come out in the past couple years and I'm definitely going to sink a lot of hours into it.

1) The engine is superb. Really, I was stunned with the performance I managed to get on my rig. You don't need a 7800 GTX to enjoy it at all. Being familiar with the Source engine, I'd have to say that Oblivion makes use of my resources FAR, FAR better than Source does. Turning HDR on in Source makes my FPS plummet to about 20. In Oblivion, everything runs smooth as butter with HDR enabled.
2) Graphics. They're sweet. Maybe not the greatest graphics ever - F.E.A.R. beats that - but they're not a pile of crap either. The textures in the distance blur up noticeably, but you can alter that in your settings at a performance cost. Also, you only really notice it while outside and looking at hills and mountains that stretch out into the horizon.
3) Dialogue is still Wiki, which is bad, but it has improved from Morrowind, which is good. I have a list of pertinent questions specific to the NPC and don't have a list that stretches into infinity with crap like "Profession" and "Morrowind" and "Blah-blah region".
4) The NPCs engage in dialogue between themselves and it's pretty interesting to hear. On a bad note, sometimes there's chaos when you're walking down a street and there are pairs of people around you, each talking to one another. Too much talking going on at once. It's good, but unpolished; sometimes the same pair of people will have a little exchange like:
Guy 1 "Hello! Did you hear about..."
Guy 2 "Yes, terrible. I couldn't believe..."
Guy 1 "Well goodbye."
[pause]
Guy 2 "Did you notice..."
Guy 1 "Definitely..."
Guy 2 "Be seeing you!"
Repeat.
5) I love the schedules. When I first came into the city, I saw a trio of Khajit walking on the streets just as the sun was coming over the horizon. Since it was just turning daylight, they were some of the few people out who weren't guards. I approached one of the brothers, had a nice chat, and he handed me a scroll/newspaper. While exploring a few minutes later, I came across the printing shop where they work from. I went in and was surprised to find it empty. While stealing a few things, the brothers came in from their rounds and caught me in the act.
6) Another great experience I had was during a certain quest where you're competing against two other thieves to retrieve a certain item. I followed the girl thief, since she seemed to know what she was doing. Eventually, she came to the door to enter another district. I followed through, honestly expecting her to be missing on the other side - but she wasn't! I followed her more and saw her lockpick the door to a certain house. I went in behind her. When the interior of the house loaded, the girl was creeping about in crouched/sneaking mode, ransacking the place. I loved it. I found the item before she did, she told me off, and I had a good laugh.
7) Interface. Clunky at first and obviously made for a console. After a while you get used to it, though. It also teaches you to manage your inventory better. Unlike Morrowind, I only keep what I need in order to minimize the scrolling.
8) Clothing is extremely detailed and half the time I'm in the city, I'm wearing my "city" outfit instead of armour. I like that - I didn't do it in Morrowind, but I remember having certain clothes I used in Daggerfall. In a way, it helps the RPG a little - I dress my part.
9) Sneaking has been greatly improved. I can no longer steal something out from under the nose of a shopkeep, nor can I raid their private quarters since they follow you around when you start acting suspicious. When I first came to the Imperial City, it was about 2 or 3 am. I got lucky and lockpicked into an axe shop on my first try without breaking a single lockpick and raided the place. (only later did I learn you can't sell stolen items to regular shopkeepers. It definitely helps keep you from getting ridiculously rich since I'm only stealing what I want to use.) I snooped around, went upstairs and was shocked to see the shopkeeper lying in his bed. I pickpocked him for the key into the shop, so now I can go in there whenever I like.
10) Combat is fluid. Sure, you can hack a rat to death without really using your shield, but fighting a tough opponent really makes it more challenging - his shields goes down, you attack, pull back a little...it's really a matter of timing. Putting difficulty up high makes it more fun since a couple hits can do you in. The only problem I've seen so far involves pathfinding - for instance, I met a mage goblin inthe first dungeon. Clearly weak in melee, he ran away from me and tried to put as much distance between us. I leaped behind a rock when he casted fireball and lightning, and the rock soaked it up. I kept doing that, circling the rock and shooting fireballs until it died.
11) FaceGen is awesome for making your character but looks silly on some NPCs. It really loves making people look black and giving them nigger lips. A little bit of tweaking, and you can pull of a pansy half-man, half-woman character like mine though. Basically, whatever you can think up you can make as long as it's vaguely humanoid..

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y170/N ... Roland.jpg


Alright, my fingers hurt now.
 

Hazelnut

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UK
EvoG said:
Twinfalls said:
Evo - you do understand the basis of my picking the game apart though...


No I really do, and I agree, but only so much. I think I'm in a unique position sometimes because I like games period, not just particular genres, or even certain games within certain genres. What I've been trying to impress upon people is that if you look to fit Oblivion into a category of your defining, you won't be happy with it. If you look to play Oblivion as a game, and play it for what IT is, its perfectly wonderful, and thats hard to get across.

You may not be is as unique a position as you think on this score Evo. There are quite a few members who, like myself, also like games of different genres and even {gasp} Morrowind for what it was. I just think that as members we aren't so vocal - hell, I only read this board 1-2 times a week, and just look at the pathetic post count considering when I joined... :roll:

I come here for two reasons; firstly I like RPG's (mainly fantasy) - right from Diablo to Fallout, secondly I like the intelligent discussions that can be found if you look hard enough. I most certainly do not have either the inclination or the time to get involved in most of the discussions here, but I am not a Zealot and judge games by basically the same criteria you layed down: Do I like playing, and am I having fun?

Lastly, to all the mini-reviewers, thanks for the balanced writing about Oblivion - it's very interesting to me, and many others I'm sure.

Cheers,

H.
 

EvoG

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Chicago
DarkUnderlord said:
EvoG said:
I think I'm in a unique position sometimes because I like games period, not just particular genres, or even certain games within certain genres.
I think that's a bit unfair. I mean hell, I'd wager 99% of people on the Codex like "games" in general and aren't devoted to any one particular genre.

Hazelnut said:
You may not be is as unique a position as you think on this score Evo. There are quite a few members who, like myself, also like games of different genres and even {gasp} Morrowind for what it was.

Okay I better clarify this before more people take offense. :D

Of course I dont think I'm the only person here who likes games, but perhaps I should've said that I'm and easier "sell", and not terribly critical like many people are? No biggie.

I like the simple minded games as well as the deep, involved ones. A lot of my friends for example play FPS's exclusively, but refuse to play me in UT2k4, opting for CoD or MoH or any of the tactical games. I'm more than happy to oblige, but its frustrating when its all we play.

I just tend to play everything worth playing, and a lot of people on various forums and again my friends are far more selective than I thought, which is rather surprising.




So for a small disclaimer:

"If you too are unique like me, and like games more than you hate them, my initial statment does not apply to you."


:D
 

Dhruin

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Messages
758
The more I play, the more I'm enjoying it and I'd endorse most of what EvoG said. It isn't dialogue-driven and has a number of obvious flaws but the total package works pretty well. It's definitely an action/RPG...but it is clearly an RPG to me. I think the action/adventure accusations are based on a combination of selective criteria and misinformation.

It's no Fallout but they've done a better job than I expected.
 

Pr()ZaC

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2005
Messages
431
Meh, both of you ladies are console lovers anyway. Even playing a game where you impersonificate a piece of crap exiting the anus would have fantastic and exciting gameplay for you.

Anyway, I'll try it tomorrow morning with the no compass/markings mod.
 

mister lamat

Scholar
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Mar 23, 2006
Messages
570
Dhruin said:
The more I play, the more I'm enjoying it and I'd endorse most of what EvoG said. It isn't dialogue-driven and has a number of obvious flaws but the total package works pretty well. It's definitely an action/RPG...but it is clearly an RPG to me. I think the action/adventure accusations are based on a combination of selective criteria and misinformation.

It's no Fallout but they've done a better job than I expected.

i am very much of this opinion as well. it is by no means an dialogue driven game, but it is quite honestly one of the most immersive i've played in quite sometime.

the joke that the orc member of the dark brotherhood tells about the girl's birthday... not only worth the price of admission but quite honestly far darker than fallout's darkest moments... seriously, that muthafucka is evil and proud to be it.
 

kris

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Lulea, Sweden
I would say my first realisations when I tried it on was that all this talk in this thread and others about it being "massive" and "immersive" is clearly overstated. sure it is "massive" compared to a game like Jade empire and yeah it is "immersive" compared to a game like Dungeon siege. Maybe it is the hype that made me think like this, but to say the world is realistic is either a lie or ignorance. I will make a thread about this (and other games like this) when I roamed the world a little but more.

This does of course not make it less of a GAME, Clearly they have designed it to have pretty much only game moments/mechanics closely together in a compact experience.
 

Hazelnut

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UK
EvoG said:
Okay I better clarify this before more people take offense. :D

Hey, just wanted to let ya know that I took absolutely no offense what-so-ever! I just rushed my post out before ER started on telly.

I simply wanted to let you know that you were not alone is all, I promise I didn't even have a sticky out bottom lip when I wrote that... :lol:

(admittedly, after re-reading, my post could have used a couple of judicious smileys)

Cheers,

H.
 

kris

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Location
Lulea, Sweden
Pr()ZaC said:
Anyway, I'll try it tomorrow morning with the no compass/markings mod.

I just don't see the problem with the compass. In fact I had played a really longtime before I even noticed it was there. I also have only used it once. IMO, it is neither needed (due to the map) nor is it a problem (due to size and placing).
 

Twinfalls

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Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Quigs said:
Like, in the original morrowind, how when you chose your class or sign, you could do this one power once a day? Gave me one of those. Pretty damn cool place, out in the middle of nowhere too.

What, have they removed the once-a-day powers you get from birthsigns?

I notice they have dumbed down spell names. Used to be things like 'Balnya's soothing balm' or Ondusi's unhinging - reflecting the original idea that spells were made by individual wizards and sold onto the market. Now it seems it's all 'greater heal' and such.

But now you can't delete spells from your book, forcing you to scroll through the umpteen old, redundant ones once you get well into the game....
 

Oarfish

Prophet
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Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
What, have they removed the once-a-day powers you get from birthsigns?

Nope, lovers kiss / dragon skin etc are still there.

I notice they have dumbed down spell names.

Yep, certainly for the starting spells. Some of the purchasable ones have slightly less obvious names.

But now you can't delete spells from your book, forcing you to scroll through the umpteen old

Yup, it's going to get damn annoying. They are on separate tabs by discipline though, which helps slightly.
 

Shagnak

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Sep 6, 2003
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Arse of the world, New Zealand
I've noticed the books n lore n shit is still there.
If you're up with that shiz.

So, some positives.
I was fooled into thinking that the stealth model was up with the Thief series.
But no. Oh well.

I'll forgive a certain developer as long as he promises to make Thief 4 ubar.
 

Oarfish

Prophet
Joined
Sep 3, 2005
Messages
2,511
I was fooled into thinking that the stealth model was up with the Thief series.

Yeah, it's a bit disappointing. No running and hiding, as soon as your covers blown the bad guys get psychic. No directional detection either that I have noticed, just radius checks. Still, popping stuff with home made poisoned arrows while sneaking about is pretty satisfying.
 

Twinfalls

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Messages
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Oarfish said:
No directional detection either that I have noticed, just radius checks.

Say what? You're seen even if they are looking the other way? In direct contradiction to what I've read is supposed to be the case?
 

Oarfish

Prophet
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Messages
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In direct contradiction to what I've read is supposed to be the case?

Not seen that happen, but in the training dungeon I trod on a rat facing me while stealthed.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
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Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
I don't geddit, Oarfish. Is line-of-sight a factor in stealth, or does it simply not matter if an NPC is facing the other way?
 

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