*redacted*

[Akratus]

Never thought they tried to go for an isolated/Gothic feel. The trope that hits you over the head like a sledgehammer is America's occupation of the Middle East.

In Goodsprings?

Sure it's there to some extent but you're talking about the starting/tutorial area of the game.

That's part of my point. The starting area is the player's introduction to the world. That's when you tell the player what they can expect. With Goodsprings, Obsidian tells us we're going to be playing a technologically anachronistic Western with odd humour, and by the time we get to New Vegas the game's turned into something altogether more manic.

Contrast that with something like ... Baldur's Gate. (Everyone's played BG, right?) Candlekeep sets the tone for the rest of the game- all of it- within the first thirty minutes. There's no confusion as to what they're going for, what you're supposed to be feeling, how you're supposed to react to events, what your goals are. As another counterpoint to NV, notice how they introduce the overarching story thread. It's there right from the beginning and is developed, fleshed out, and given nuance throughout the rest of the game. NV leaves you confused until you get to Vegas, at which point it beats you into submission with a bunch of exposition from a handful of characters within the span of five minutes.

That's not how to do it.

Addendum: mystery plots work when the audience/player proxy is sufficiently defined at the beginning, which definition acts as an anchor for the audience/player to hold to as they get their bearings. The problem is that your character in NV isn't that anchor, and can't be, because you start with what amounts to a non-character.

I'm. . I'm so confused. Should I pick up this gun?. . . But this game is clearly a tram riding simulator. I don't get it, where is the next tram? Why would any of this be in a game called half-life anyway. . .? . . . I don't understand.

 

[oljebox]

As to motivation what else you need than the desire to met and confront an asshole who left you in shallow grave with 9mm bullet lodged in your scull? How can you be confused about this? Don you need quest compass and Patrick Stewart to tell you what to do? And since when having diverse themes in one game is bad thing? I enjoyed Morrowind lot more than bland and constant Oblivion... Which was Lore Rape on Coolest Province of Tamariel.

I'm not referring to the initial motivation, I'm referring to everything that happens after you reach the casinos. Benny and Mr House and various groups are after your chip, and not only are you forced to pursue the issue even though that doesn't necessarily make sense

Spoiler

(what if the player thinks his character should just leave Nevada, or at least drop the issue? What if you've imagined your character as a selfish asshole until that point, who, once the risks are too high for exacting revenge, would just give up and move on to better things? Remember, we're making up this character as we go along, so this is a completely sound take on the character. That's why you don't put a non-character in a story with a huge mystery twist, Obsidian!)

, but you also have to decide which factions you like or don't like, what you're going to do about them, and what you're going to do with the chip. This, after the player's spent the past how many hours and days thinking the main plot was a simple revenge/fetch quest, all happens within a 5-minute span of time. You can't just drop all of that on the player like that. It's jarring. There was absolutely no build-up or foreshadowing.

You're confusing theme and tone. If theme is content, tone is the presentation of that content. Tone is something like atmosphere. Jamie Foxx killing people in Django Unchained and Mel Gibson killing people in Braveheart feel very different, thanks to what we refer to as "tone". Or for a gaming example: Doom and Duke Nukem couldn't be more different tonally, even though in both you're shooting up monsters. The problem with New Vegas's tone is that it switches so often: levity to drama, grounded to bombastic, realistic to fantastical, funny to scary ... If you look at something like (the first three episodes of) Star Wars or Indiana Jones, you'll see that it also presents a lot of different themes and situations, but it gets away with these shifts in the story because the tone stays consistent throughout the movies: it's an epic romp. Now you tell me what New Vegas' tone is. You can't. Why? Because it's too many things, tonally, depending on your current mission and location. It just comes off as schizophrenic.

On a more positive note, I like how they handled companions. As for ED-E ... I thought it didn't need to be an attack drone, or at least not de facto. That should have been an optional upgrade.

I'm. . I'm so confused. Should I pick up this gun?. . . But this game is clearly a tram riding simulator. I don't get it, where is the next tram? Why would any of this be in a game called half-life anyway. . .? . . . I don't understand.

Alright, now you're just being obtuse for the hell of it. How about Do I play this game like Doom, or Duke Nukem, or Half-Life, or Portal, or Battlefield, or COD, or Singularity, or Bioshock ...?

I do kinda find it ridiculous that the FNV inventory system isn't considered memetically terrible.

Still not as bad as The Witcher 2's or DA2's.

 

[Gozma]

I do kinda find it ridiculous that the FNV inventory system isn't considered memetically terrible. I was kinda shocked that it could be so 1991 bad in what is supposed to be a game for normal people and not strictly spergs. Like 6 pages of weightless ammo casings bad.

 

[Akratus]

As to motivation what else you need than the desire to met and confront an asshole who left you in shallow grave with 9mm bullet lodged in your scull? How can you be confused about this? Don you need quest compass and Patrick Stewart to tell you what to do? And since when having diverse themes in one game is bad thing? I enjoyed Morrowind lot more than bland and constant Oblivion... Which was Lore Rape on Coolest Province of Tamariel.

I'm not referring to the initial motivation, I'm referring to everything that happens after you reach the casinos. Benny and Mr House and various groups are after your chip, and not only are you forced to pursue the issue even though that doesn't necessarily make sense

Spoiler

(what if the player thinks his character should just leave Nevada, or at least drop the issue? What if you've imagined your character as a selfish asshole until that point, who, once the risks are too high for exacting revenge, would just give up and move on to better things? Remember, we're making up this character as we go along, so this is a completely sound take on the character. That's why you don't put a non-character in a story with a huge mystery twist, Obsidian!)

, but you also have to decide which factions you like or don't like, what you're going to do about them, and what you're going to do with the chip. This, after the player's spent the past how many hours and days thinking the main plot was a simple revenge/fetch quest, all happens within a 5-minute span of time. You can't just drop all of that on the player like that. It's jarring. There was absolutely no build-up or foreshadowing.

Goodsprings and powdergangs faction warfare. Primm sheriff choice. NCR pro's and con's introduced. Legion attrocities shown. Legion-NCR colorado river situation explained. Optional exposition dialogue for factions and general mojave situation.

Gee. . . so little build-up.

You're confusing theme and tone. If theme is content, tone is the presentation of that content. Tone is something like atmosphere. Jamie Foxx killing people in Django Unchained and Mel Gibson killing people in Braveheart feel very different, thanks to what we refer to as "tone". Or for a gaming example: Doom and Duke Nukem couldn't be more different tonally, even though in both you're shooting up monsters. The problem with New Vegas's tone is that it switches so often: levity to drama, grounded to bombastic, realistic to fantastical, funny to scary ... If you look at something like (the first three episodes of) Star Wars or Indiana Jones, you'll see that it also presents a lot of different themes and situations, but it gets away with these shifts in the story because the tone stays consistent throughout the movies: it's an epic romp. Now you tell me what New Vegas' tone is. You can't. Why? Because it's too many things, tonally, depending on your current mission and location. It just comes off as schizophrenic.

Maybe it comes off as schizophrenic because you've never played a game with a realistically diverse game world. Focus =/= quality.

On a more positive note, I like how they handled companions. As for ED-E ... I thought it didn't need to be an attack drone, or at least not de facto. That should have been an optional upgrade.

I'm. . I'm so confused. Should I pick up this gun?. . . But this game is clearly a tram riding simulator. I don't get it, where is the next tram? Why would any of this be in a game called half-life anyway. . .? . . . I don't understand.

Alright, now you're just being obtuse for the hell of it. How about Do I play this game like Doom, or Duke Nukem, or Half-Life, or Portal, or Battlefield, or COD, or Singularity, or Bioshock ...?

How about, as fallout. Or as an rpg. You dumbfuck opinionated individual.

I do kinda find it ridiculous that the FNV inventory system isn't considered memetically terrible.

Still not as bad as The Witcher 2's or DA2's.

Agreed.

 

[oljebox]

This, after the player's spent the past how many hours and days thinking the main plot was a simple revenge/fetch quest, all happens within a 5-minute span of time. You can't just drop all of that on the player like that. It's jarring. There was absolutely no build-up or foreshadowing.

Goodsprings and powdergangs faction warfare. Primm sheriff choice. NCR pro's and con's introduced. Legion attrocities shown. Legion-NCR colorado river situation explained. Optional exposition dialogue for factions and general mojave situation.

Gee. . . so little build-up.

I'm referring to the build-up of the chip's reveal and everything tied to it. The factions don't have anything to do directly with the twist. You're not addressing my criticism.

Maybe it comes off as schizophrenic because you've never played a game with a realistically diverse game world. Focus =/= quality.

"I'm sure the Mona Lisa would look better with half of her mouth smiling, and half of her mouth frowning. Also, one crazy eye. All that diversity on her face would really improve the viewer's experience!" That's basically what you just stated. You're also focusing on content instead of tone. Try again. Hint: the painting wouldn't look any better if it were painted in 19 different styles; in fact, it would look much worse.

How about, as fallout. Or as an rpg. You dumbfuck opinionated individual.

= "I submit, oljebox!"

 

[Rake]

A ton of that is more "I don't like how modern games work" than "I don't like how New Vegas works."

Are they realy different things? If someone dislikes how modern games work it isn't a valid critisism for F:NV?
If F:NV was made in the Fallout's engine, all the Codex would love it. Sure, there would be people who would complain about this and that, but that's Fallout fans for you. Van Burren would be the same and even F2 was teared apart when it was released. And yet no one says it's not a sequel and half the Codex prefers it to the old one.

Even if we consider that F:NV is on par with the originals content-wise (i couldn't stomach the terrible gameplay more than 6 hours so i'm hesitand to compaire them, although i have read Let's play's of the game and it's DLCs) the fact remains that it's a good Fallout game that looks like crap and plays like crap.
To consider it better than the originals would mean that it's way better in some other departments, but i can't see where (at least in such a margin that compensates for the use of Gamebryo)

 

[Akratus]

This, after the player's spent the past how many hours and days thinking the main plot was a simple revenge/fetch quest, all happens within a 5-minute span of time. You can't just drop all of that on the player like that. It's jarring. There was absolutely no build-up or foreshadowing.

Goodsprings and powdergangs faction warfare. Primm sheriff choice. NCR pro's and con's introduced. Legion attrocities shown. Legion-NCR colorado river situation explained. Optional exposition dialogue for factions and general mojave situation.

Gee. . . so little build-up.

I'm referring to the build-up of the chip's reveal and everything tied to it. The factions don't have anything to do directly with the twist. You're not addressing my criticism.

So a surprise/reveal is inherently bad? Right.

Maybe it comes off as schizophrenic because you've never played a game with a realistically diverse game world. Focus =/= quality.

"I'm sure the Mona Lisa would look better with half of her mouth smiling, and half of her mouth frowning. Also, one crazy eye. All that diversity on her face would really improve the viewer's experience!" That's basically what you just stated. You're also focusing on content instead of tone. Try again. Hint: the painting wouldn't look any better if it were painted in 19 different styles; in fact, it would look much worse.

First of all you can't compare a painting to a game. Second of all, all the quests in new vegas tie into the world or a singular theme. Most of the quest lines tie into the same theme 1 and 2 had, the rebuilding of the world. (which doesn't allways go well, in fact just about never.) Or do more themes than one make your head hurt?

What, was New Vegas made with different artstyles? Is the quest structure of one quest inherently different from any other? Does added quantity unequivocally lower quality? Do you have a brain?

How about, as fallout. Or as an rpg. You dumbfuck opinionated individual.

= "I submit, oljebox!"

If you say so.

 

[laclongquan]

Not saying it's bad but New Vegas is one of the most overrated games on the Codex.

Wrong. Fallout 1 is the most overrated game on Codex.

Oh wait, Baldur's Gate also is overrated. Yeah, both F1 and BG1 are the top.

 

[Rake]

Not saying it's bad but New Vegas is one of the most overrated games on the Codex.

Wrong. Fallout 1 is the most overrated game on Codex.

Oh wait, Baldur's Gate also is overrated. Yeah, both F1 and BG1 are the top.

Overrated? Yes.
Better games than F:NV? Yes.

 

[Surf Solar]

Not saying it's bad but New Vegas is one of the most overrated games on the Codex.

Wrong. Fallout 1 is the most overrated game on Codex.

 

[laclongquan]

Grampy Bone asked "what's your point, muuuuuutt?"

 

[Harold]

So much autism in this thread

 

[Jick Magger]

Grampy Bone asked "what's your point, muuuuuutt?"

I think he's implying that you either have an inherent bias towards Fallout 2, or that your opinion is invalid because your profile picture implies that you enjoyed Fallout 2.

Fuk all thiz shit mayte I jus' wanna plae videyo gaymes.

 

[Akratus]

So much autism in this thread

So much use in your post

 

[2house2fly]

You're rewarded with the Vault 3 quest if you find it, simple as that. Some Powder Gangers tell you their leader fled in that direction, it's up to the player to stumble upon it. This is called a good thing.

Eh, not exactly. Whether you find Vault 19 or not it comes up in the ending slides, and harshed my mellow a bit the first time I played because it turned out my nice peaceful Mojave was doomed to be terrorised by powder gangers.

It's unbelievable that a Fallout world would have any place for people who cause trouble. As slaves, perhaps, but a community wouldn't waste its time trying to reform them; they've got more than enough else to contend with, without also trying to fix people who are untrustworthy and dangerous.

Slaves is exactly what they are. They aren't getting paid for making that railroad. They don't call themselves slaves because slavery is something dirty raiders do and the NCR has pretensions of being a civilised society. Besides, reforming criminals is something the old US claimed to believe in. It's paralleled with the words of (I think?) Canyon Runner of the Legion, on the topic of slaves: "To enslave them is to save them; to give them purpose and virtue."

what if the player thinks his character should just leave Nevada, or at least drop the issue? What if you've imagined your character as a selfish asshole until that point, who, once the risks are too high for exacting revenge, would just give up and move on to better things?

Your motivation is either your attachment to the game world giving you an interest in who runs it or the promise of power or other reward leading you to side with the faction you think will reward you best. If neither of these is satisfactory then I guess you can consider your game over with Benny's death. What if my Vault dweller doesn't want to save Vault 13? The game still ends after the time limit expires. What if my Chosen One doesn't want to take on the Enclave? Eventually you have to, because the choices are Take On The Enclave or Stop Playing. What RPG is there which takes into account the fact that the player might not want to take part in the main quest and gives them a "leave game area and live your life" option?

(Trivia: Obsidian toyed with the idea of letting the player end New Vegas early by asking to go back to California through the Mojave Outpost gate)

 

[Commissar Draco]

They should make the Quest out of it with BIG COMPASS SIGN to the consoltard cattle. Same as Skyrim Serial Murder quest.

 

[oljebox]

So a surprise/reveal is inherently bad? Right.

From earlier on this very page ...

Addendum: mystery plots work when the audience/player proxy is sufficiently defined at the beginning, which definition acts as an anchor for the audience/player to hold to as they get their bearings. The problem is that your character in NV isn't that anchor, and can't be, because you start with what amounts to a non-character.

So, no. Sixth Sense works because both characters are fully realised. Lost worked in seasons 1 and 2 because the characters were always fully realised; but then they kept introducing and focusing on new, less detailed characters, while simultaneously never bothering to explain what the fuck was going on with the plot, and that's when the series went to shit. V for Vendetta is only moderately successful with its story because both V and Evey are largely ciphers- V because he's meant to be and Evey because Natalie Portman can't act.

First of all you can't compare a painting to a game.

But you can compare people's experiences in order to figure out why one succeeds and the other fails. You don't throw every conceivable flavour into a dish, because then the flavour just becomes a jumbled, unenjoyable mess. By the same token, you don't introduce twenty different tones into your game.

Second of all, all the quests in new vegas tie into the world or a singular theme. Most of the quest lines tie into the same theme 1 and 2 had, the rebuilding of the world. (which doesn't allways go well, in fact just about never.) Or do more themes than one make your head hurt?

I'M NOT DISCUSSING THEME. I'm discussing TONE.

You're either an idiot who can't grasp rudimentary concepts and/or a troll who continues to argue against strawmen. Those being the possibilities, I have no reason to continue this exchange.

Not only are you wrong, you're also being a cunt about it. That's strike one. You don't get a second. You can apologise over PM; continue to make an idiot of yourself, at which point I'm happy to ignore you; or drop it all and try to make a better impression some other time. Your choice.

 

[2house2fly]

You can have different tones within the same work. Look at Breaking Bad, which got progressively grimmer and grimmer but still managed at least one laugh per episode.

 

[oljebox]

Slaves is exactly what they are. They aren't getting paid for making that railroad. They don't call themselves slaves because slavery is something dirty raiders do and the NCR has pretensions of being a civilised society. Besides, reforming criminals is something the old US claimed to believe in. It's paralleled with the words of (I think?) Canyon Runner of the Legion, on the topic of slaves: "To enslave them is to save them; to give them purpose and virtue."

I understand these arguments, and I even agree with them. My problem is just that whereas everything else in the game is spelled/laid out for the player, this is not, so it sticks out a lot compared to everything else. It's a minor, obvious annoyance, that's all.

Your motivation is either your attachment to the game world giving you an interest in who runs it or the promise of power or other reward leading you to side with the faction you think will reward you best. If neither of these is satisfactory then I guess you can consider your game over with Benny's death. What if my Vault dweller doesn't want to save Vault 13? The game still ends after the time limit expires. What if my Chosen One doesn't want to take on the Enclave? Eventually you have to, because the choices are Take On The Enclave or Stop Playing. What RPG is there which takes into account the fact that the player might not want to take part in the main quest and gives them a "leave game area and live your life" option?

Oh, I agree. I'm merely pointing out a consequence of the way they ham-handedly introduced the chip twist. If at that point you've been imagining your character a certain way, you're going to have to retroactively change it to fit in. I'm suggesting it would have been better for them to introduce more information about the chip up front, or at least hint about or foreshadow it so you know to expect something. With that knowledge in mind, you'd have primed the character (and the player by proxy) for the ride. As it is, they don't give us enough information to go on the journey with them, until that five-minute stretch of exposition where they dump everything on us. Easing us into it or at least getting us to anticipate something would have made the switch much smoother.

(Trivia: Obsidian toyed with the idea of letting the player end New Vegas early by asking to go back to California through the Mojave Outpost gate)

That would have been great. They should have done that.

You can have different tones within the same work. Look at Breaking Bad, which got progressively grimmer and grimmer but still managed at least one laugh per episode.

They introduced a handful of tones within the first episodes, and focused on them to varying degrees throughout the series.

A new tone can be introduced, but the shift has to be gradual. As an example ... Buffy the Vampire Slayer was camp and silly but became quite serious (for Buffy) from season 5 onward. It worked because each season prior to that built toward the shift.

Each mission in NV is basically an episode, and just during the time it took me to reach Vegas I recollect seven or eight different tones, often following right after each other. It's disjointed. If they'd had two, three tones predominate throughout, and then used the rest as a respite from the main fare, it would have worked better.

 

[DalekFlay]

Are they realy different things? If someone dislikes how modern games work it isn't a valid critisism for F:NV?

Sure. I just meant it becomes a kind of pointless argument to make. "I don't like modern games so I don't like this modern game." Okay.

New Vegas is built with a shitty engine, but how much that bothers you tends to be tied to how much you hate or tolerate modern 3D open world engines in general. I was occasionally annoyed by pop-in or a weirdly long load time, but for the most part the game was fine and completely functional. This is probably because I played a ton of similar 3D games before it that prepared me, or got me used to it, or whatever term you want to use. The idea of long load times being a REAL problem compared to Fallout's shitty companion AI being a NOT BIG DEAL problem amuses me. The latter is a much bigger deal, gameplay wise.

Eh, not exactly. Whether you find Vault 19 or not it comes up in the ending slides, and harshed my mellow a bit the first time I played because it turned out my nice peaceful Mojave was doomed to be terrorised by powder gangers.

What the fuck do you want, bro? A big fucking quest arrow telling you where they are so you can stop them? A linear signpost telling you to go to their base after you interact with the other gangers in the prison? Do we also need to make sure you find them if you go chaotic good and slaughter the gangers in general?

Having to find them is a good thing.

 

[2house2fly]

I'm just saying, I fought the powder gangers at the correctional facility and then headed south following the main story, and never really interacted with the powder gangers again, forgetting about them once the bigger threat of the Legion reared its head and I was deciding the fate of the entire world. 60 hours later the game tsked at me for not following up on the one or two notes you can find at powder ganger camps which say some of them went north. As for what the fuck I want, maybe a quest in the journal (arrow free of course) that says "some of the powder gangers went north from the correctional facility, see if you can find where they went" or something. That way I can look at the quest log when I'm thinking "Well I've done everything, let's Final Battle" and be reminded that there's still loose ends to tie up. Quest arrows are bullshit, but even the hallowed original Fallouts had a log so you could keep track of everything you had to do, and New Vegas has significantly more content.

 

[DalekFlay]

As for what the fuck I want, maybe a quest in the journal (arrow free of course) that says "some of the powder gangers went north from the correctional facility, see if you can find where they went" or something.

I wouldn't really be opposed to that. I just also don't think not getting it is something to whine about. Something new for you to do next replay!

 

[Akratus]

So a surprise/reveal is inherently bad? Right.

From earlier on this very page ...

Addendum: mystery plots work when the audience/player proxy is sufficiently defined at the beginning, which definition acts as an anchor for the audience/player to hold to as they get their bearings. The problem is that your character in NV isn't that anchor, and can't be, because you start with what amounts to a non-character.

So, no. Sixth Sense works because both characters are fully realised. Lost worked in seasons 1 and 2 because the characters were always fully realised; but then they kept introducing and focusing on new, less detailed characters, while simultaneously never bothering to explain what the fuck was going on with the plot, and that's when the series went to shit. V for Vendetta is only moderately successful with its story because both V and Evey are largely ciphers- V because he's meant to be and Evey because Natalie Portman can't act.

First of all you can't compare a painting to a game.

But you can compare people's experiences in order to figure out why one succeeds and the other fails. You don't throw every conceivable flavour into a dish, because then the flavour just becomes a jumbled, unenjoyable mess. By the same token, you don't introduce twenty different tones into your game.

Second of all, all the quests in new vegas tie into the world or a singular theme. Most of the quest lines tie into the same theme 1 and 2 had, the rebuilding of the world. (which doesn't allways go well, in fact just about never.) Or do more themes than one make your head hurt?

I'M NOT DISCUSSING THEME. I'm discussing TONE.

You're either an idiot who can't grasp rudimentary concepts and/or a troll who continues to argue against strawmen. Those being the possibilities, I have no reason to continue this exchange.

Not only are you wrong, you're also being a cunt about it. That's strike one. You don't get a second. You can apologise over PM; continue to make an idiot of yourself, at which point I'm happy to ignore you; or drop it all and try to make a better impression some other time. Your choice.

Dear bovine lord, I wisheth not to anger thee. I apologize for any sacrilege I done to you. I am but a simple boy and can't think as straight as you. .

They should have foreshadowed larger politics at play at the beginning of the game and/or the importance of the chip, is what I'm getting from you here, is that at all correct?

Now, you're saying that the game has different tones. Did you mean the cowboy tone versus the larger tone of the further main quest and the tones of vegas? I don't get what your definition of tone is. And why is having a lot of them (is 20 a lot?) a bad thing?

Once I dealt with Benny myself, I wasn't thinking: "I sure wish I could have known the game would change here beforehand!" because I could go along with it. I was enjoying the fact that the world was opening up to me. It felt, to me, like obsidian was thinking that other games just have you kill the one and only antagonist, but they let you deal with him as you wish and then open the rest of the story up to you.

You haven't exactly explained to me specifically how any of this detracts from the game. I've never heard this complaint. Who the fuck else had a problem with the shift from the benny arc to the mojave arc?

It seems to me like you picked up on this whole tone and tonal shift thing once and are applying it just because you can.

I'm still not paying attention because I'm just doing this because I like discussions and at the moment this is all I got, so tell me what you think and I can maybe possibly assemble another thought for ya here.

 

[Gozma]

Are they realy different things? If someone dislikes how modern games work it isn't a valid critisism for F:NV?

Sure. I just meant it becomes a kind of pointless argument to make. "I don't like modern games so I don't like this modern game." Okay.

New Vegas is built with a shitty engine, but how much that bothers you tends to be tied to how much you hate or tolerate modern 3D open world engines in general. I was occasionally annoyed by pop-in or a weirdly long load time, but for the most part the game was fine and completely functional. This is probably because I played a ton of similar 3D games before it that prepared me, or got me used to it, or whatever term you want to use. The idea of long load times being a REAL problem compared to Fallout's shitty companion AI being a NOT BIG DEAL problem amuses me. The latter is a much bigger deal, gameplay wise.

This is a double standard, you're saying hey NV is a Bethesda-style game, cut it some slack, but not allowing that like your whole concept of "companion" in a single PC protagonist game barely existed when Fallout came out and I personally never thought about judging them that way. Ian died rescuing Tandi or something for me IIRC, and I had zero expectation that I'd have some guy follow me around the entire game carrying my shit and spouting his life story and personal dramas. They have enough AI for the median one fight they will live after you pick them up.

 

[DalekFlay]

This is a double standard, you're saying hey NV is a Bethesda-style game, cut it some slack, but not allowing that like your whole concept of "companion" in a single PC protagonist game barely existed when Fallout came out and I personally never thought about judging them that way. Ian died rescuing Tandi or something for me IIRC, and I had zero expectation that I'd have some guy follow me around the entire game carrying my shit and spouting his life story and personal dramas. They have enough AI for the median one fight they will live after you pick them up.

I'm not asking anyone to cut anyone any slack. My point is the "this is bad" and "this is no big deal" arguments above are framed at a starting point of "modern games suck."

An 18 year old today who was raised on Xbox would go into a long diatribe about all the ways Fallout and Icewind Dale are clunky or deficient or whatever else and downplay the ways modern games suck. It all plays right into the nostalgia goggles argument, which I know people here hate, but if you hate it so much then don't play into it.