Researching: the death of the CRPG industry

[Excidium]

In before potato.

 

[odrzut]

RPGs are not dying - they are evolving. Some in bad way, some in good.

Give us a recent example of a cRPG evolving in a good way.

I cannot think of one.

Witcher 2 is better than Witcher 1 was. Yeah, I know 1eyedking disagree. And most of you only consider games cRPG when combat is turnbased. I don't care. cRPG would be called travelling party simulator with turn based combat if this was its defining quality.

I also don't consider nethack or rogue a RPG because story is virtually nonexistant in these games.

To the point - with DA2 and FO3 exception - most sequels of games I remember were better than their first parts. So I think we are still in the progress phase.

 

[Radisshu]

Turning into action games = EVOLVING

 

[ZbojLamignat]

derp

Jesus christ, another moron who doesn't understand a concept as simple as nostalgia. Nostalgia means missing something. You cannot be nostalgic about your current gf, job or school ffs just as you cannot be nostalgic about games you currently play. I'd wager most people on the codex play older games a lot despite having easy access to the new ones and see them as (clearly) superior. So how does any of your drivel make a goddamn sense in such situation?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Also: Do you guys think we can have a return to the 90s RPG days ever? Can digital distribution help? Etc!

One problem that is often forgotten about is loss of talented developers. A lot of cult games were good thanks to specific game developers, often veterans from the 80s. To make it worse, they were made by a specific combinations of these developers.
For example Fallout was like it was because it was worked on a very specific group of developers.
Fallout 2 made by a bit different group of developers started losing polish and setting integrity (for example most of new terrain objects in Fallout 2 didn't have descriptions - even Vertibirds didn't have a description despite that a humblest rusty car wreck would have a description in Fallout, many RL weapons were added, etc. - interestingly the guy that wrote most of weapons, robots and other technological things in Fo1 didn't take part in Fo2 development).

Then there was Troika which is famous for great but very flawed games. When playing Arcanum and ToEE, I couldn't help an impression that they have left someone important for quality of Fallouts in Interplay whose touch was sorely missing in these games.

The biggest problem with returning to the 90s days would be finding a new group of talented and experienced developers that could develop these games.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I also don't consider nethack or rogue a RPG because story is virtually nonexistant in these games.

Indeed! In a similar manner, I don't consider Mario Kart a racing game because there is no minigame where you stuff Yoshi with soy burgers until he erupts like a sad green soggy grenade with seeds for shrapnel

 

[Mortmal]

Maybe an over-statement, but it is true that around the turn of the millennium, a lot of the greatest CRPG developers just sort of died, many of whom right after doing some of their best work. These include Black Isle, Sir-Tech, Looking Glass, Troika, and Origin to name just a few.

I'm writing an article on this, and I'm wondering if you Codexers have answers. Why did this happen? Did it have to happen? And most importantly, can there be companies like that again - non-indie teams making sophisticated, turn-based CRPGs for the PC?

Perhaps someone has written on this topic already. If so, would you kindly link me? Thanks guys!

-Keith

You have the questions, great, i have all the answers. Origin is a good example to start with.
The decline of origin started when they were bought by EA, they had to target a broader audience and cater to mainstream .
Thus after the splendid ultima 7 we had ulitma 8 a much more actiony game altough still decent ,then the trainwreck that finished them ultima 9 wich was a mix of ultima and a very popular mainstream game of that time , a game that sold way more than any ultima : tomb raider.
So they end up making a game raping the lore of their previous game while not satisfying action gamers either.

You could say mainstreaming and the need to cater to a broader audience was the beggining of the decline. I am also convinced that if back then people were buying their games they could have sustained the rpg genre. I remember it was hardly 1 copy sold for 20 pirated games, and those games were good, damn good, way better than what we have today. People were pirating cause it just cool to get stuff for free and none give a damn, spare me the moral bullshit about "trying before buying", "fighting capitalism" and so on...

Now the situation is even worse, you need a 6 digit sale to be considered successful, a game must be understandabble and playable for the average joe within the first 5 min of gameplay. Theres is absolutely no room for modern rpg. They requires more work, the public is more demanding , it pays less and they pirate it anyway.Everyone will go for a shooter with flashy graphics, a social facebook game or some android app hoping to make millions.

Theres no salvation coming from the indie world, you may get one good rpg once a blue moon, for example, age of decadence is promising but it has been 5 years already in development and still no release. Well known indie rpg developper jeff vogel is going fulll mainstream, nothing to expect from him anymore . The other indies ? a sea of shitty jrpg clones.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You have successfully added odrzut to your reject list.

Return to the post

 

[asper]

We had a topic like this before, and there the consensus was that there is no decline at all, which made me go fully :derp:

Anyway - everything has been said ad nauseam already.

Bigger money, bigger development groups, bigger audiences --> streamlining of games, less innovation

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

You could say mainstreaming and the need to cater to a broader audience was the beggining of the decline. I am also convinced that if back then people were buying their games they could have sustained the rpg genre. I remember it was hardly 1 copy sold for 20 pirated games, and those games were good, damn good, way better than what we have today. People were pirating cause it just cool to get stuff for free and none give a damn, spare me the moral bullshit about "trying before buying", "fighting capitalism" and so on...

Now the situation is even worse, you need a 6 digit sale to be considered successful, a game must be understandabble and playable for the average joe within the first 5 min of gameplay. Theres is absolutely no room for modern rpg. They requires more work, the public is more demanding , it pays less and they pirate it anyway.Everyone will go for a shooter with flashy graphics, a social facebook game or some android app hoping to make millions.

Theres no salvation coming from the indie world, you may get one good rpg once a blue moon, for example, age of decadence is promising but it has been 5 years already in development and still no release. Well known indie rpg developper jeff vogel is going fulll mainstream, nothing to expect from him anymore . The other indies ? a sea of shitty jrpg clones.

Morrowind was no more or less accessible than the typical ‘classic’ and was seven figures.
Even as dumbed down as KOTOR was compared to BG it wasn’t more accessible. KOTOR, Morrowind, and FO 3 were not idiot proof. I had one friend who was a Star Wars guru and couldn’t play KOTOR because it was all talk and no action. I had another friend who couldn’t find his way out of the first vault in FO 3. There were more people still who couldn’t figure out how to level, craft, or build their magic in Morrowind. These games were not successful because they were more accessible. I found it much easier to teach non-gamers how to play Baldur’s Gate than something like Bioshock.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You could say mainstreaming and the need to cater to a broader audience was the beggining of the decline. I am also convinced that if back then people were buying their games they could have sustained the rpg genre. I remember it was hardly 1 copy sold for 20 pirated games, and those games were good, damn good, way better than what we have today. People were pirating cause it just cool to get stuff for free and none give a damn, spare me the moral bullshit about "trying before buying", "fighting capitalism" and so on...

Now the situation is even worse, you need a 6 digit sale to be considered successful, a game must be understandabble and playable for the average joe within the first 5 min of gameplay. Theres is absolutely no room for modern rpg. They requires more work, the public is more demanding , it pays less and they pirate it anyway.Everyone will go for a shooter with flashy graphics, a social facebook game or some android app hoping to make millions.

Theres no salvation coming from the indie world, you may get one good rpg once a blue moon, for example, age of decadence is promising but it has been 5 years already in development and still no release. Well known indie rpg developper jeff vogel is going fulll mainstream, nothing to expect from him anymore . The other indies ? a sea of shitty jrpg clones.

Morrowind was no more or less accessible than the typical ‘classic’ and was seven figures.
Even as dumbed down as KOTOR was compared to BG it wasn’t more accessible. KOTOR, Morrowind, and FO 3 were not idiot proof. I had one friend who was a Star Wars guru and couldn’t play KOTOR because it was all talk and no action. I had another friend who couldn’t find his way out of the first vault in FO 3. There were more people still who couldn’t figure out how to level, craft, or build their magic in Morrowind. These games were not successful because they were more accessible. I found it much easier to teach non-gamers how to play Baldur’s Gate than something like Bioshock.

These games are successful because they cater to base needs of nerds. Need to escape this world (which is oh so horrible because we don't have hordes of bandits waiting for us outside each town), to boost their bruised ego by playing someone important and powerful, to give a cheap imitation of friendship and love, etc.
That's why the games became shit. Because they became a replacement of real life for nerds.
If you'll talk to them you'll notice that most of them wants adventures, exploration, romances, companions and an illusion of living in that world.

 

[MidgetGrant]

Witcher 2 is an Action RPG if nothing else.
It's a bit different from what you would call a CRPG, since Action RPGs also have some elements reminiscent of the Action/Adventure genre.

The RPGs that have come out are almost always Action type RPGs actually. I haven't really seen any big budget CRPG for a while.

Not that I'm bitching or whining for it. I honestly couldn't give less for what the big budget market holds in terms of future games.

The CRPG genre still goes strong in the independent area.
It's obvious that the general market is more interested in these loosely based RPG games.
Those are somehow more interesting.

 

[shihonage]

These games are successful because they cater to base needs of nerds. Need to escape this world (which is oh so horrible because we don't have hordes of bandits waiting for us outside each town), to boost their bruised ego by playing someone important and powerful, to give a cheap imitation of friendship and love, etc.
That's why the games became shit. Because they became a replacement of real life for nerds.
If you'll talk to them you'll notice that most of them wants adventures, exploration, romances, companions and an illusion of living in that world.

I can sort of see what you're saying, with Bioware romance being an example of going too far in that direction.

However games without immersion are nothing. RPGs especially are designed around the idea of fostering a sense of immersion. The question is, how retarded is one's approach to immersion...

 

[Jasede]

Story has nothing to do with a game being an RPG or not.

 

[Renegen]

People can debate what an RPG is ad-nauseum, all I know is I'm not spending money on Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age 2. And although the decline "doesnt exist", the last few years for me have mostly consisted of old games and strategy games, which thankfully still offer deep gameplay. Funny how that works out.

Oh, I heard there's a new Fable game on the Kinect, progress is so amazing.

 

[MMXI]

RPGs are about immersion? No. They are about cold, hard, statistical entities against cold, hard, statistical entities, where at least one of the entities is statistically developed by the player. An RPG can be an RPG with fuck all plot and fuck all immersion. Why? Because if an RPG isn't immersive itself then the human brain can replace it with a thing called imagination.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Better sequels and bigger production don't mix well. That's totally lost case of course (for now anyway), but I have faith in an indie development. Some examples like Winter Voices (an RPG) or Gemini Rue (a point and click adventure) shows that people who care about quality not quantity, existing.
They just need support from gamers (like – you shall not pirate or rape without taste any indie production that you and your flock enjoyed thoroughly). Point in case – I just bought Winter Voices pack on steam.

 

[Jasede]

What is an RPG discussions ARE RPG Codex.

 

[Excidium]

RPGs are about three things: Storytelling, character development and tactical combat. With different systems emphasizing these characteristics in different orders.

cRPGs (used to) try to mimic these three aspects, mostly being good in one or two and sucking at the other(s).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

People can debate what an RPG is ad-nauseum, all I know is I'm not spending money on Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age 2. And although the decline "doesnt exist", the last few years for me have mostly consisted of old games and strategy games, which thankfully still offer deep gameplay. Funny how that works out.

Which is because wargaming didn't have such a horrible leakage of talents like cRPGs. Luckily people like Gary Grigsby just continued to make more and more crazily complex wargames instead of moving to RTS.

These games are successful because they cater to base needs of nerds. Need to escape this world (which is oh so horrible because we don't have hordes of bandits waiting for us outside each town), to boost their bruised ego by playing someone important and powerful, to give a cheap imitation of friendship and love, etc.
That's why the games became shit. Because they became a replacement of real life for nerds.
If you'll talk to them you'll notice that most of them wants adventures, exploration, romances, companions and an illusion of living in that world.

I can sort of see what you're saying, with Bioware romance being an example of going too far in that direction.

However games without immersion are nothing. RPGs especially are designed around the idea of fostering a sense of immersion. The question is, how retarded is one's approach to immersion...

The thing is that to them immershun = a cinematic LARP simulation.
To me immersion = emulating the mechanics of the world - day and night cycle, general realism, interactivity of environment, etc. and flavour stuff like music, narration, etc.

 

[Radisshu]

Yeah, some people prefer a superficially "immersive" world (soil erosion), others prefer a world that is immersive through a coherent design (be that through NPC schedules or writing). I think the latter category also tends to prefer a strong (rigid) RPG system before an action-oriented one (where stats do not matter as much).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Yeah, some people prefer a superficially "immersive" world (soil erosion), others prefer a world that is immersive through a coherent design (be that through NPC schedules or writing). I think the latter category also tends to prefer a strong (rigid) RPG system before an action-oriented one (where stats do not matter as much).

The main difference is that the first want to "live in a fictional world" to escape from their banal shit boring lives and the latter want to enjoy excellent craftsmanship.

 

[Radisshu]

Yeah, some people prefer a superficially "immersive" world (soil erosion), others prefer a world that is immersive through a coherent design (be that through NPC schedules or writing). I think the latter category also tends to prefer a strong (rigid) RPG system before an action-oriented one (where stats do not matter as much).

The main difference is that the first want to "live in a fictional world" to escape from their banal shit boring lives and the latter want to enjoy excellent craftsmanship.

I guess you've got a point, although I think that's only partly true. Lots of people just want to sit down and play some shit without getting too much into it, and then they find out about Oblivion and think that's the archetypal RPG, and will then react with resentment to elitists like Codex people, partly because of the elitist attitude but also because they're uneducated. People will usually defend the opinion they had first, even in the face of better arguments, especially when they're not stroked with velvet gloves.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Yeah, some people prefer a superficially "immersive" world (soil erosion), others prefer a world that is immersive through a coherent design (be that through NPC schedules or writing). I think the latter category also tends to prefer a strong (rigid) RPG system before an action-oriented one (where stats do not matter as much).

The main difference is that the first want to "live in a fictional world" to escape from their banal shit boring lives and the latter want to enjoy excellent craftsmanship.

I guess you've got a point, although I think that's only partly true. Lots of people just want to sit down and play some shit without getting too much into it, and then they find out about Oblivion and think that's the archetypal RPG, and will then react with resentment to elitists like Codex people, partly because of the elitist attitude but also because they're uneducated. People will usually defend the opinion they had first, even in the face of better arguments, especially when they're not stroked with velvet gloves.

The thing is that there are tons of people who are really into cRPGs who play since the times of Wasteland and Goldbox games who are into next gen cRPGs. To them these new LARP simulators are exactly what they were always dreaming about for decades and they are the worst fanatics of immershun.
I suspect that it would be possible to convert the people that you are talking about (or at least it could be possible if there were actual new Fallout-like cRPGs - something like ToEE but with actual playability) but the ones that went from playing old-school games to LARP simulators and MMORPGs are lost to the cause.

 

[Radisshu]

Yeah, some people prefer a superficially "immersive" world (soil erosion), others prefer a world that is immersive through a coherent design (be that through NPC schedules or writing). I think the latter category also tends to prefer a strong (rigid) RPG system before an action-oriented one (where stats do not matter as much).

The main difference is that the first want to "live in a fictional world" to escape from their banal shit boring lives and the latter want to enjoy excellent craftsmanship.

I guess you've got a point, although I think that's only partly true. Lots of people just want to sit down and play some shit without getting too much into it, and then they find out about Oblivion and think that's the archetypal RPG, and will then react with resentment to elitists like Codex people, partly because of the elitist attitude but also because they're uneducated. People will usually defend the opinion they had first, even in the face of better arguments, especially when they're not stroked with velvet gloves.

The thing is that there are tons of people who are really into cRPGs who play since the times of Wasteland and Goldbox games who are into next gen cRPGs. To them these new LARP simulators are exactly what they were always dreaming about for decades and they are the worst fanatics of immershun.
I suspect that it would be possible to convert the people that you are talking about (or at least it could be possible if there were actual new Fallout-like cRPGs) but the ones that went from playing old-school games to LARP simulators and MMORPGs are lost to the cause.

Yeah. But they're LARPers, so fuck them.

LIGHTNING BOLT!