Researching: the death of the CRPG industry

[Awor Szurkrarz]

We need to remember that they are the true enemy, though. LARPer nerds, not "ADHD kiddies" or "casuals".

 

[Radisshu]

The problem is that the commonly accepted view - these days - of the definition of the term "role playing game" seems to be "game in which you roleplay", where "roleplay" is understood as "LARP". This definition is easily deconstructed by the standard Halo example (you can LARP in any game, thus any game is a RPG by that definition, which makes it a shitty definition), but most people just won't listen.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I thought that it's any game with some stats, levels and stuff like that?

 

[shihonage]

The thing is that to them immershun = a cinematic LARP simulation.
To me immersion = emulating the mechanics of the world - day and night cycle, general realism, interactivity of environment, etc. and flavour stuff like music, narration, etc.

Hey, that's how I see immersion too The feel that the universe has fairly consistent laws, and you can actually plot your actions and expect consistent results without suddenly being bounced around by the designers' whim.

RPGs are about immersion? No. They are about cold, hard, statistical entities against cold, hard, statistical entities, where at least one of the entities is statistically developed by the player. An RPG can be an RPG with fuck all plot and fuck all immersion. Why? Because if an RPG isn't immersive itself then the human brain can replace it with a thing called imagination.

INTJ detected

 

[Excidium]

Roleplaying is great. By roleplaying I mean developing a character with a background and personality and interacting in the game following those concepts. It helps creating a beliavable story, and makes every event a lot more interesting than comparing scores and rolling dice. But people "roleplaying" in a computer RPG is fucking sad. Electronic games kill any reason for roleplaying since everything is limited by what the programmers allowed.

Larping isn't my thing though, I tried once and didn't like it. Oddly enough, the LARPers I've met weren't nerds at all, they were mostly people that study arts, philosophy and similar stuff interested in the acting aspect.

I honestly don't know how a socially awkward stereotypical nerd could play in a LARP anyway, considering it is a game 90% about social interaction.

 

[Radisshu]

Dunno. I once met a socially handicapped (but really outgoing once you started talking to him, which I kind of regretted) guy who was into LARPing who definitely could be classified as a big-time nerd.

It was kind of annoying as well, because I started talking about P&P with him, and he apparently larped whilst playing P&P games as well, so he got really excited and started talking about this incredibly funny character he came up with and started imitating his accent. I felt really at the moment.

 

[MMXI]

Yeah. According to the masses, the ability to role-play in a video game makes that game a cRPG. In other words, according to them, statistics aren't needed at all. All that is needed is lots of player choices, with no skill checks and other such complexities. What you guys seem to call LARP simulators.

The thing is, by definition, they could be half right, because the games they want to play are a combination of role-playing and video games. The flaw with their definition is that actual cRPGs aren't just video games that allow for role-playing, they are an evolved form of computer adaptations of what pen and paper RPGs are/were. Basically, the game part is very specific for cRPGs, requiring statistics or character traits to reflect the player's character within the game rules/systems. Therefore, while an FPS with narrative choices is a cRPG for LARPing consoletards, they are wrong and therefore retarded.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Hm, I never thought those “cinematic immersion people” are such dangerous beings, because if they so easy amusing, bushy/boobsy cutscenes should be enough to disarm them. I fear more of people who want only “entertainment” without any elements of challenge. Games used to be challenging, frustrating thus at the end of day – very rewarding. Without challenge what else left? Yes, “entertainment” value only, sort of RPG Disney land. Games today are supposed to be fun, and indeed Fun is what I fear the most.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Larping isn't my thing though, I tried once and didn't like it. Oddly enough, the LARPers I've met weren't nerds at all, they were mostly people that study arts, philosophy and similar stuff interested in the acting aspect.

That's RL LARPers. We're talking about people who want to "live in a video game".

I honestly don't know how a socially awkward stereotypical nerd could play in a LARP anyway, considering it is a game 90% about social interaction.

It would be an awkward social interaction between nerds.

 

[Excidium]

Video games in general are dying. " Full entertainment experience" is the future.

I honestly don't know how a socially awkward stereotypical nerd could play in a LARP anyway, considering it is a game 90% about social interaction.

It would be an awkward social interaction between nerds.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

The Golden Age of cRPGs died as the video games market expanded and grew. cRPGs as a genre were never a mass product, they existed in a niche, which, while not very large, was big enough to sustain them.

As the market grew, the average income from a game grew also, and along with that also grew average cost of making a game and marketing it. What did not grow accordingly was cRPG audience numbers. The niche suddenly has started to become too tight and some companies suffocated while other adapted, expanding to other, larger niches. Hence the flood of ARPGs.

There is still a market for classic party-based RPGs with turn-based combat, but it's not big enough for the large companies to be interested in it. They might invest $2 million in such a game and earn $3 million, but that would be a waste of time for them, as they prefer to spend $10 million, earning $20 million as a result.

That's why we are catered to by indie companies only. They are the ones who want that 1$ million gain. Last "large" classic RPG was what, Temple of Elemental Evil? From 2003.

All the numbers ale pulled from my ass, obviously. Just wanted to indicate a trend.

This. Nothing more needs to be said really.

Except perhaps that, unlike other things that have 'trend' cycles, I doubt the classic TB RPG will ever return as a major genre, due to the general dumbing down of the audience.

For instance, the other day I was attempting to show my young nephew (who just laps up all the newgen action/FPS games on his 360) the awesomeness of ToEE's combat. His reaction - "that's so fucking boring, I don't know how you can play that shit".

This is why we can't have nice things anymore.

 

[SCO]

Check the "5Hitman: derpolution" thread. Especially this post:

In part, marketing departments of today's entertainment industry don't sell just their products, they also sell an image of the consumer, to which the said consumers then turn to.

Long games hard to keep track of? Sure! I'm employed now, and it's so hard to play an hour a day as opposed to eight, gimme a game eight times shorter!

Smart games are pseudo-intellectual bullshit with attempts to moralize and without cool big guns? Fuck yeah, gimme another Call of Duty!

Hell, even some Codexers here had at some points admitted that they welcome the shorter games just because they wouldn't be able to "follow"/"immerse" themselves in a game like Torment because it's so big that you'd only be able to have two-three dialogues before having to go do something else.

It's the usual lure of "ease" and "accessibility" combined with entertainment, buzzwords, and "cool lifestyles" of the gaming celebrities.

Heh, someone commented about how disinterested a dev was when talking about Far Cry 3 at E3 and something that popped to my mind was, "Really?". I mean really, are we that immature that we need someone to be excited about their own product for us? Gaming is clearly the least mature of entertainment forms - even with movies, you expect the presenters to behave "respectably" and in some sort of a collected, coherent fashion. Even in sports, past the rush of euphoria, people are serious and collected. Even with pulp fiction literature, the degree of "being interested" is generally that of "Hey, I wrote a book, and it's cool, and I'm smug about it because hey, I'm one of a thousand authors that published their book this week but I'm in the media and they're not".

Gaming? You have to have raging Todds pointing fingers at the screen, you have to have retards hopping on stage, headbutting virtual dummies, you have to have booth babes, retarded marketing, hype, noise, lies - of course, what do you expect the consumers of such a lovely entertainment will be, both through attracting utter morons and by shaping normal people into such?

It's not only CRPGs.

 

[MicoSelva]

nerds (...) good PC games (...) Baldur's Gate

You have successfully added MicoSelva to your ignore list.

Return to the post.

[PERCEPTION]Hm, it *might* seem that MicoSelva likes Baldur's Gate!

Seriously, noticed just now?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

This. Nothing more needs to be said really.

Except perhaps that, unlike other things that have 'trend' cycles, I doubt the classic TB RPG will ever return as a major genre, due to the general dumbing down of the audience.

For instance, the other day I was attempting to show my young nephew (who just laps up all the newgen action/FPS games on his 360) the awesomeness of ToEE's combat. His reaction - "that's so fucking boring, I don't know how you can play that shit".

This is why we can't have nice things anymore.

You have to start younger. My seven year old loves the tacticle stat based shit. The reason why ToEE didnt take was because it was only on one platform.

This game is top 20 on Xbox Live arcade

This game sold a quarter million in the US.

Sold over 1 million on the Xbox and PS 3

Sold half a million on consoles

This game sold 0 on consoles. Its too complex for their little console minds. The graphics are old. They would rather play Call of Duty, cant larp from that perspective, not enough action blah blah..

Those excuses are why we cant have nice things anymore.

 

[deuxhero]

FE11 was only a quarter mil?


Also: FE fucking hard (outside of 2 and 8) and hasn't been dumbed down from its start. Why is it there?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

This. Nothing more needs to be said really.

Except perhaps that, unlike other things that have 'trend' cycles, I doubt the classic TB RPG will ever return as a major genre, due to the general dumbing down of the audience.

For instance, the other day I was attempting to show my young nephew (who just laps up all the newgen action/FPS games on his 360) the awesomeness of ToEE's combat. His reaction - "that's so fucking boring, I don't know how you can play that shit".

This is why we can't have nice things anymore.

You have to start younger. My seven year old loves the tacticle stat based shit. The reason why ToEE didnt take was because it was only on one platform.

This game is top 20 on Xbox Live arcade

This game sold a quarter million in the US.

Sold over 1 million on the Xbox and PS 3

Sold half a million on consoles

This game sold 0 on consoles. Its too complex for their little console minds. The graphics are old. They would rather play Call of Duty, cant larp from that perspective, not enough action blah blah..

Those excuses are why we cant have nice things anymore.

You may be right about there being a console market for games like ToEE. How do you imagine it technically, though?

Check the "5Hitman: derpolution" thread. Especially this post:

In part, marketing departments of today's entertainment industry don't sell just their products, they also sell an image of the consumer, to which the said consumers then turn to.

Long games hard to keep track of? Sure! I'm employed now, and it's so hard to play an hour a day as opposed to eight, gimme a game eight times shorter!

Smart games are pseudo-intellectual bullshit with attempts to moralize and without cool big guns? Fuck yeah, gimme another Call of Duty!

Hell, even some Codexers here had at some points admitted that they welcome the shorter games just because they wouldn't be able to "follow"/"immerse" themselves in a game like Torment because it's so big that you'd only be able to have two-three dialogues before having to go do something else.

It's the usual lure of "ease" and "accessibility" combined with entertainment, buzzwords, and "cool lifestyles" of the gaming celebrities.

Heh, someone commented about how disinterested a dev was when talking about Far Cry 3 at E3 and something that popped to my mind was, "Really?". I mean really, are we that immature that we need someone to be excited about their own product for us? Gaming is clearly the least mature of entertainment forms - even with movies, you expect the presenters to behave "respectably" and in some sort of a collected, coherent fashion. Even in sports, past the rush of euphoria, people are serious and collected. Even with pulp fiction literature, the degree of "being interested" is generally that of "Hey, I wrote a book, and it's cool, and I'm smug about it because hey, I'm one of a thousand authors that published their book this week but I'm in the media and they're not".

Gaming? You have to have raging Todds pointing fingers at the screen, you have to have retards hopping on stage, headbutting virtual dummies, you have to have booth babes, retarded marketing, hype, noise, lies - of course, what do you expect the consumers of such a lovely entertainment will be, both through attracting utter morons and by shaping normal people into such?

It's not only CRPGs.

Exactly. Basically, it's abusive marketing that creates this situation. This kind of marketing should be banned.

 

[Doma]

Voice acting killed crpgs

 

[scimmiagialla]

I'm considering about buying 2 or 3 games developers industries and hiring some of you to make the ultimate rpg. My only aim is to have an rpg a like, fuck the others.

 

[Mortmal]

Morrowind was no more or less accessible than the typical ‘classic’ and was seven figures.
Even as dumbed down as KOTOR was compared to BG it wasn’t more accessible. KOTOR, Morrowind, and FO 3 were not idiot proof. I had one friend who was a Star Wars guru and couldn’t play KOTOR because it was all talk and no action. I had another friend who couldn’t find his way out of the first vault in FO 3. There were more people still who couldn’t figure out how to level, craft, or build their magic in Morrowind. These games were not successful because they were more accessible. I found it much easier to teach non-gamers how to play Baldur’s Gate than something like Bioshock.

Oh not so fast morrowind was indeed not so accessible to the average gamer, but they bought it cause of the mindblowing graphics, it was an absolutely gorgeous game, the most beautiful game on the xbox.
But the tricks is not many of them finished it, and the true horror, not many of them were even able to find caius cosade...I do not lie, remember how it was in bethesda forums back them, that drove them to some radical dumbing down in oblivion. Same for bioware and kotor, thier next game mass effect was quite dumbed down already and mass effect 2 hit the bottom, its a pretty sci fi movie shooter. Many bioware fans are very happy of it . I do agree some want a real life relpacement with pseudo romance not a game with deep strategic options .

I should point out too not only the quality of release lower , bare a few gem like new vegas or witcher 2 (thats even stretching a lot the definition of rpg) , but they are also fewer. In the 90's you had many many rpg release, not all of them were great or unforgettable but they had at least the merit to exist. Now we only have 1 or max 2 action rpg a year, and a very good one every 5 years .

 

[Luzur]

RPGs then:

RPGs now:

I wish it was only cosmetic. I think I would prefer the gal on the bottom with a bath and an STD test.

you prefer the cheap hooker to a classy lady?

 

[CorpseZeb]

you prefer the cheap hooker to a classy lady?

... are you comparing „performance” by appearance...?

 

[Thrasher]

But I don't think the endless bitching about the unfairness of situation, and blaming Bioware and Bethesda for all the evils in the world, is very productive. Personally I prefer retro-gaming instead, playing all those games I missed the Golden Age, replaying old favourites and playing remakes and fan made mods and maps for my favourite games.

^This

 

[Unkillable Cat]

IIRC, and this would only be a minor note as to the fall of Troika, was that their last released game was a Source engine game, but they had to work under the contractual obligation that VTM: Bloodlines had to be released AFTER HL2 was released, because that was the game that was supposed to showlight the engine and steal all the glory, and not VTM: Bloodlines. This meant that Bloodlines was pushed back somewhat due to Valve Time (which makes Einstein cry) and had to play second fiddle to HL2.

And yet, the ironic part about this is that Bloodlines is STILL a bugfest extraordinnaire.

The only other note I can add to the discussion is the impact of Doom upon the gaming market. After having read the shelf-space article dating to '92, I must re-assess my opinion on Doom's impact upon gaming in general, but it doesn't change the fact that Doom greatly accelerated the rate at which money was being thrown into the gaming industry. The rise of the "multimedia stamp of approval" at the same time didn't help either.

 

[Jaesun]

There is always Wesp's awesome bugfix patches for Bloodlines.

And yeah, DOOM certainly made the industry approach and make games more differently. Good point.

 

[MMXI]

Yeah. Doom was a sharp decline after Ultima Underworld.