Resurrecting Troika

[Häyhä]

You contradicted yourself here.

Ridley was ~42 when he directed Alien. Scorsese was ~48 when he directed Goodfellas. Gibson was ~36 when he wrote Neuromancer.

They produced their Magnum Opus in middle age (depending on your definition), not in youth. The young are stupid and impulsive. At middle age you’re still energetic but are tempered by life experience.

I stand corrected on those two cases then, I exaggerated, though I did say in their 30s so Gibson checks out. My general point still stands, most people aren't going to produce their best creative work in their 60s, 70s or their 80s. Yes, too young and you lack life experience, but young still have the vigor of youth. So, a 58-year-old Tim Cain isn't going to re-create another Fallout ever again.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You contradicted yourself here.

Ridley was ~42 when he directed Alien. Scorsese was ~48 when he directed Goodfellas. Gibson was ~36 when he wrote Neuromancer.

They produced their Magnum Opus in middle age (depending on your definition), not in youth. The young are stupid and impulsive. At middle age you’re still energetic but are tempered by life experience.

I stand corrected on those two cases then, I exaggerated, though I did say in their 30s so Gibson checks out. My general point still stands, most people aren't going to produce their best creative work in their 60s, 70s or their 80s. Yes, too young and you lack life experience, but young still have the vigor of youth. So, a 58-year-old Tim Cain isn't going to re-create another Fallout ever again.

Then we need new creators to step up to the plate. We’ve got plenty of creative people if games like Primordia and Stasis: Bone Totem are anything to go by.

 

[Crispy]

I don't want to see Troika resurrected. I don't even want to see another ToEE or Arcanum, nor any sequels to them. No.

What I do want, however, are brand-new companies with fresh ideas and brand-new IPs that challenge, match, or even overcome the best that Troika and the rest of the old guard came up with. I want cutting-edge, imaginative, risky, controversial *new* RPGs. I want a new RPG renaissance.

Will I ever get that? Only time will tell. People like Vince and Tactical Adventures are at least knocking on that door, however.

 

[Häyhä]

You contradicted yourself here.

Ridley was ~42 when he directed Alien. Scorsese was ~48 when he directed Goodfellas. Gibson was ~36 when he wrote Neuromancer.

They produced their Magnum Opus in middle age (depending on your definition), not in youth. The young are stupid and impulsive. At middle age you’re still energetic but are tempered by life experience.

I stand corrected on those two cases then, I exaggerated, though I did say in their 30s so Gibson checks out. My general point still stands, most people aren't going to produce their best creative work in their 60s, 70s or their 80s. Yes, too young and you lack life experience, but young still have the vigor of youth. So, a 58-year-old Tim Cain isn't going to re-create another Fallout ever again.

Then we need new creators to step up to the plate. We’ve got plenty of creative people if games like Primordia and Stasis: Bone Totem are anything to go by.

I don't think the main problem is so much the actual lack of smart, creative people per se, but more the current status quo of what gets produced and published, deviate from the "norm" too much and you aren't going to find any funding/visibility/marketing etc.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You contradicted yourself here.

Ridley was ~42 when he directed Alien. Scorsese was ~48 when he directed Goodfellas. Gibson was ~36 when he wrote Neuromancer.

They produced their Magnum Opus in middle age (depending on your definition), not in youth. The young are stupid and impulsive. At middle age you’re still energetic but are tempered by life experience.

I stand corrected on those two cases then, I exaggerated, though I did say in their 30s so Gibson checks out. My general point still stands, most people aren't going to produce their best creative work in their 60s, 70s or their 80s. Yes, too young and you lack life experience, but young still have the vigor of youth. So, a 58-year-old Tim Cain isn't going to re-create another Fallout ever again.

Then we need new creators to step up to the plate. We’ve got plenty of creative people if games like Primordia and Stasis: Bone Totem are anything to go by.

I don't think the main problem is so much the actual lack of smart, creative people per se, but more the current status quo of what gets produced and published, deviate from the "norm" too much and you aren't going to find any funding/visibility/marketing etc.

Fuck the norm. The AAA market is gonna collapse soon anyway. Fucking crony capitalism.

 

[Gahbreeil]

I don't want to see Troika resurrected. I don't even want to see another ToEE or Arcanum, nor any sequels to them. No.

What I do want, however, are brand-new companies with fresh ideas and brand-new IPs that challenge, match, or even overcome the best that Troika and the rest of the old guard came up with. I want cutting-edge, imaginative, risky, controversial *new* RPGs. I want a new RPG renaissance.

Will I ever get that? Only time will tell. People like Vince and Tactical Adventures are at least knocking on that door, however.

You missed the point, Crispoh. All that Troika would need is fresh blood. I don't care for the "Trio" because I don't know what exactly they did. Well, the IP owned by Troika is what I meant. And a spiritual successor to ToEE would rock your socks off.

Far more than Solasta which is a good game, true.

 

[Crispy]

These "spiritual successors" to the classics that you mention, let's look at some of them, shall we?

The "spiritual successor" to Planescape: Torment was an abomination and was nothing like the original in any way, shape or form. It is a truly strange game and probably should never have been made.

The "spiritual successor" to Fallout 1 and 2 (actual sequel, different developer) was so far different from the originals that its existence should be considered a crime against humanity. I'm surprised Brian Fargo didn't retroactively have his name digitally scrubbed from any future installations of Fallout on any computer in perpetuity in protest to what Bethesda did.

The "spiritual successor" to Baldur's Gate (actual sequel, different developer) is nothing like Baldur's Gate and should have been a completely different IP. It's even gayer than anything BioWare themselves could have come up with. I'm talking about BG3, of course. If you consider the Pillars of Eternity games to be them, well, I don't even want to talk about those. My doctor told me not to. If you consider the Dragon's Age games to be them, well, the first one wasn't horrible, but after that some sort of interdimensional portal opened up and I guess allowed some alien beings to come through it to our world to keep working on them. How many "spiritual successors" were there to Baldur's Gate, anyway?

The "spiritual successor" to The Bard's Tale (actual sequel, different developer) looked, felt and played nothing like its original. Another very strange game that completely missed the mark. It was p. much a disaster.

I think you get my point by now. Rehashing the past is not getting us anywhere. We haven't had a truly unique, actual computer roleplaying game in decades.

 

[Alex]

The good die young.

 

[Gahbreeil]

I love what you did there, Crispy.

Wouldn't you agree that a "spiritual successor" should be more in line with the original?

Imagine Planescape: Torment remade on ToEE's engine and you shall understand what I tried to state.

 

[Crispy]

Wouldn't you agree that a "spiritual successor" should be more in line with the original?

A "spiritual successor" should be a game that carries on the quality, passion and attention to the original's detail that made it a great game to begin with. The only example I can come up with that even approaches these criteria is F:NV and even that was severely hampered by the whacko Gamebryo game engine they had to use to design it around.

My point is that if you're going to do a sequel of any kind it should be done right, and if you're relegated to calling it a "spiritual successor" instead then that means you either don't have the ability to or aren't allowed to do the original justice.

Fallout 2 was fine. BG2 was fine. The real Wizardries all worked out fairly well. There are plenty of examples of actual sequels not shitting all over their prequels. "Spiritual successors" are almost always going to be doomed from the beginning. It's a dumb idea, period.

 

[Gahbreeil]

How about the Wayward Realms, are you interested in said game?

 

[Konjad]

What I do want, however, are brand-new companies with fresh ideas and brand-new IPs that challenge, match, or even overcome the best that Troika and the rest of the old guard came up with. I want cutting-edge, imaginative, risky, controversial *new* RPGs. I want a new RPG renaissance.

You mean like for example... Realms Beyond: Ashes of the Fallen?

 

[Crispy]

Radiane, I corrected the typo.

 

[Terenty]

We haven't had a truly unique, actual computer roleplaying game in decades.

Disco Elysium and I'm being serious

 

[Dorateen]

Grimoire was the true spiritual successor to Wizardry 7, in every sense of the word.

 

[Radiane]

The spiritual successor to PS:T at least features nicey turn-based battles. Can't comment about the story, but I assume that it isn't half as bad as it's made out to be. Also:

The "spiritual successor" to The Bard's Tale (actual sequel, different developer) looked, felt and played nothing like its original. Another very strange game that completely missed the mark. It was p. much a disaster.

You are supposed to play the Etrian Odyssey games at this point, Crirspy.

I think you get my point by now. Rehashing the past is not getting us anywhere. We haven't had a truly unique, actual computer roleplaying game in decades.

Queen's Wish, Dungeon of Naheulbeuk, Grimoire, just to name a few, have something to say against this.

 

[Crispy]

Disco Elysium and I'm being serious

I knew someone was going to mention DE thus my word choice of "actual computer roleplaying game".

 

[Gahbreeil]

King Crispy - How can you ignore my counter-argument for 14 minutes straight?

 

[Crispy]

Grimoire

Grimoire is no sequel. It's not unique by any means, either. It's certainly one of the truest CRPGs we've seen in a long time, but even Cleve would happily admit he wasn't going for ingenuity or uniqeness in its design. It's truly a classic, dungeon-romping blobber CRPG, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[mondblut]

Maybe at some point AI will advance enough so it can analyze Troika's games, then make new ones based on them while fixing or avoiding their problems.

Sure, but why would he need us?

 

[Crispy]

How about the Wayward Realms, are you interested in said game?

This is no counter-argument, it's a question.

I simply haven't been keeping up on the development of this game. Wake me up when it's been released and patched several dozen times.

 

[Gahbreeil]

Good, good. Let us proceed with Ressurecting Troika.

Meanwhile, inXile is ressurecting Arcanum.

1. Clockwork Revolution is a time-bending steampunk first-person RPG from the creators of Wasteland and Arcanum. After stumbling across an incredible invention that allows you to travel into the past, you discover the city you call home—the vibrant steam-powered metropolis of Avalon—has been carefully crafted through the alteration of historical events. By traveling back to key moments, your interactions and choices will have a butterfly effect on the deep, narrative-driven world and characters of Avalon, causing them to change and react in unprecedented ways.

 

[ds]

Maybe at some point AI will advance enough so it can analyze Troika's games, then make new ones based on them while fixing or avoiding their problems.

Sure, but why would he need us?

To act as batteries powering the AI.

"You know, I know this RPG doesn't exist. I know that when I play it the AI interface is telling my brain that it is incline."

 

[Crispy]

Clockwork Revolution

What the hell is inXile smoking? "Clockwork Revolution" is a ridiculous name. You're revolutionizing the... making of clocks? Are your clocks, which by definition are meant to simply tell time, somehow now doing things other than telling time? Are they telling time in some new, revolutionary way? "It is exactly three-thirty in the afternoon" gets, what, telepathically transmitted into your brain? Would that even be a revolution anyway? You're still just telling me the time!

If you can't even come up with a clever or inspiring name for your RPG -- Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magicka Obscura was brilliant -- then you probably shouldn't be making RPGs in the first place.

 

[Gahbreeil]

Revolution, check. Clockwork's aren't necessarily clocks in the Fantasy genre. Clockwork golems don't exactly count time.

Yet, I agree. It is absolutely true that the title of Arcanum sounds better. And something like "Betwixt: Magic and Industry" would be a good start.

Although, coming back to the first line of this post. Life/time seems to be a clockwork. And it is experiencing a revolution as of the plot.