Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Excidium II]

For all you knew your gay sister was murdered by a serial killer still inside the house..!

A vampire with a ghost sister? P. complicated family.

 

[Roqua]

Bloodlines, an instant classic with tons of content that ages extremely well by the last professional crpg development studio. I like how the same people that shit all over the game for a couple bugs and whining and having hissy fits left and right ensuring Troika closed it's doors now look back so fondly at how fucking awesome the game was.

Let's see how you fucking invalid monkeys behave this time when Mr. Cain and company make a new instant classic with tons of moving parts and content thus ensuring it will have some bugs but who gives a fuck because the game is a masterpiece for people with good taste and too many brains to play console and hipster shit.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, trust me, I'm really hoping Tranny would turn out to be a masterpiece.

You could die in Ocean House hotel so the threat was real. It was very well made (in the context of it not being a horror game), though they could have made it even creepier.

 

[Delterius]

But I can see how its pretty weak nowadays compared to other horror games.

Really? I'm not exactly a big fan of the horror video game genre but as far as I'm concerned half the horror is good atmosphere and most today's games utterly fail at it. Limited visibility via constantly failing flashlight/lamp and jump scares can only keep interest for so long, eventually they lose effectiveness.

The point I tried to make is that while the Ocean House Hotel startled me a few times, other games have a much more longlasting feeling of dread. True, Amnesia's flashlight gets old but its integral to the game. And so are Silent Hill's goddamn uncooperative cameras.

Then again, Bloodlines is an RPG, not a Horror game. So the creepy atmosphere it manages to accomplish at times -- especially Grout's Mansion -- are in themselves pretty great.

 

[baturinsky]

What's scary about Grout's?

 

[Delterius]

Nothing scary but rather creepy. I think the enemies and the soundtrack theme in Grout's Mansion work together to make a creepy atmosphere in spite of how you are playing an RPG, which implies confidence in being able to fight off whatever you face.

 

[Carrion]

What? There's nothing to imply that there's no danger. The only way you can know that is if you played it before or looked it up. Ocean House is great horror because of the uncertainty. Up to that point in the game, anything dangerous you saw, you could W+ M1 and kill it. That all goes out the window when the house itself starts attacking you; there's nothing to fight back against. The scene in the kitchen is sheer genius, because unlike the earlier sections in the hallway, you can't run, you can't take cover, there's nothing whatsoever to interact with, but you don't know that. There's no apparent end to the attacks so you keep trying to find a way out until they finally stop on their own. Don't tell me you were bored during that section and you just stood there and waited for it to be over. The apparent "rules" change a few times during this section, and you're never allowed to find your balance and feel safe. Yes, having played it we all know that it's just scripted sequences, and you probably can't die there even if you try; but you have no way of knowing that when you're stumbling through for the first time.

On my first playthrough I found the Ocean House pretty fun and amusing rather than scary. I'll also stick to the notion that it was quite easy to realize right away that it's all scripted, which often kills the terror straight away.

It's not the only game where this happens. Aliens versus Predator from 1999 was fucking scary because the enemies were not only lethal but unpredictable as well, moving around and spawning in different places (IIRC) when you reloaded the level, which meant that at any point an enemy might appear and murder you without a warning unless you were ready, which made it outright nerve-wrecking at times (which wasn't helped by the lack of free saving). The sequel, on the other hand, was heavily scripted, and while it managed to create a tense atmosphere (kind of like Bloodlines, but stronger in the horror department), a lot of the scariness of the original was gone — you very quickly learned how to read the signals the game gave you, so that you knew that most of it was just smoke and mirrors, at which point the real sense of danger was lost to an extent. You also knew that you'd be able to deal with whatever the game threw at you, because the levels could only play out in one way. And this was three years before Bloodlines, which thus didn't even have the benefit of a novelty value, even though it used a bag of different tricks in trying to unsettle you.

For me a much better example of a similar type of "horror" as in Ocean House is X-18 in Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl, which shares many similar elements with it (e.g. flying objects, creepy sounds, a threat that is very different than what has come before it) but overall manages to make you feel much more vulnerable and less like you're on rails or a part of a very tightly choreographed play. It keeps the basic gameplay almost the same as before but just introduces a new element on top of it, which makes it more unnerving than the Ocean House ghost train.

 

[Raghar]

Actually, you can take cover from most of flying pans damage in Ocean Hotel kitchen if you fuck behind a table.
But yeah, it is plenty spooky place first time or two.

Falling lift is insta kill.

 

[Beastro]

What? There's nothing to imply that there's no danger. The only way you can know that is if you played it before or looked it up. Ocean House is great horror because of the uncertainty.

By the time I got down to the basement in my first play I realized it was all jump scares and just started running around keeping my mind distracted to not anticipate anything. Paying attention to the lore dump you're given also helped come to that conclusion: Ghosts can't really hurt you, they can only freak you out and make you want to leave their haunting.

The only dangerous area is the kitchen with everything flying around whittling down your health. Took me a bit to figure out how to get out so had to find a safe spot and peer around as things bounced around everywhere.

 

[Jrpgfan]

The Ocean house scared me shitless when I first played this game. It was probably one of the most disturbing levels in any game. Just shows how well done the atmosphere was in this game.

 

[DeepOcean]

To me, the Ocean House was a nice break on the pace of the game, you expect a shooting gallery and receive something really different, if the place were full with zombies to shoot, it wouldn't be better for it. Sure, it was scripted but the references to the Shinning and the novelty of playing on a ghost hotel on the middle of a vampire game was great. I think it fitted the horror, urban legend feel of the game.

The level doesn't overstay its welcome and after it you return to the routine of shooting dudes on the face. Maybe if there were ghosts that could harm you and you had to stealth pass through them it could be better but with the way stealth worked on Bloodlines, if you didn't invest on stealth, you could be screwd.

 

[Carrion]

Also, for me one thing that kind of diluted the horror aspect of the entire game is that you're a vampire, possibly quite a wacky one, a pretty powerful creature in a rather stylized world where all sorts of monstrosities are everyday everynight stuff. You've just been introduced into this new society that stays in the shadows and generally deals in stuff that is beyond the understanding of mere mortals, and you have no choice but to deal with it and embrace it. When you're sent into a fucked-up location, even as a weakling, you don't feel like you're in over your head in a place you shouldn't be in (which is the case with pretty much every scary game I can think of), you feel like you're at your new home and should make yourself welcome.

In my opinion the encounter with the werewolf is in a way scarier than the Ocean House because by that point you've already familiarized yourself with the setting and know something about its laws and limitations, so that you know that you're out of your depth there. When it comes to the Ocean House, it's much easier to detach yourself from all the horror since it still feels like a part of the introduction to the setting — just enjoy the ride and see what the game throws at you, because this is the world you're living in now.

 

[Jrpgfan]

But ghosts man. Ghosts are scarey mofos.

Seriously, I'm scared af of ghosts. Only the thought of having something invisible close to you already creeps me the fuck out. Now imagine if that thing could throw a pan at you.

I'd rather be torn apart by a pack of werewolves than be haunted by a single ghost.

 

[DosBuster]

Ocean House wasn't that scary it was just leading you down a linear path where it would force you into scripted events that were like "ooo there's a ghost in here", cool atmosphere and story but it wasn't scary.

 

[Roqua]

So I noticed that VtM: Bloodlines was 75% off on Steam, and ended up re-buying it, installing Wesp's patch (with the restorations), and firing it up again. I played it when it came out but don't recall revisiting it since; I'm not even sure where the DVD is anymore. This thread has on-the-fly impressions of it. It's not a let's-play; it's a good deal more general than that.

I will try to mark spoilers with spoiler tags, apologies in advance if I forget.

"Wow this character creation is... streamlined"

I roll up a Tremere, put a few pips in random places, and do a test run. Notice when levelling up it costs more XP to buy higher ranks. Realise it was dumb to distribute my pips between things rather than put them all in one thing, and also I decide I don't want to be a Tremere after all, so I try again with a Brujah. Decide I'm gonna play as a good rebellious anarchist -- kind to the oppressed, giving the finger to the powerful. Give her the Academic background, pump Intimidation and Persuasion, put a pip into Potence figuring that since I don't intend to pump Strength much that'll come in handy. And set off again.

"Wow this looks and sounds pretty good"

The opening cinematic sequence is really good. Voice acting is top notch, there's great narrative tension, and it's filmed and cut like somebody actually knows what they're doing. The graphics have aged well -- it looks more stylised than outdated, the occasional low-res texture and all. The lighting and colour palette help a lot.

Tutorial is pretty cool too. Jack's a hoot. Lot of reactivity in the tutorial -- there were material differences between my first autistic Tremere and my second socially-gifted intimidating Brujah.

(But, the second time around -- yeah I like to restart -- I notice I can't skip it. Bleh.)

"Wow is this floaty"

Movement feels terrible and (in third-person view) looks awful too. It's like I'm driving a hovercraft. Combat is just about as bad as I remembered it; fire up Potence and click madly to see the enemies go down. In fact it's so bad that for a bit I feel like I just can't put up with this. Then I figure out I can just run up to people, hit FFFFFFF and drink them dry, or sneak up on them to stealth-kill them, and decide I'm gonna focus on brawling and stealth so I can do that and avoid the whiffing/popamoling as much as possible.

"Holy shit this writing is fantastic"

No really it is. I can't think of any cRPG with dialog that flows as beautifully as this. Even bit players are fully characterised, have loads of personality, and talk ... naturally. There's no typical "let me tell you about my mother" RPG-ey bullshit. There are also lovely little twists that almost, but not quite, break the fourth wall -- like the one guy named "E", which is also the key you press to talk to people, and that piece of advice from the spaced-out thin-blood with the accent. (That voice and accent though. Where have I heard it before?)

The lore-dumping in the intro was a bit heavy but it was comparatively well-executed and now that it's out of the way, things are going even better.

Also, Deb of Night is rad.

Just hit a minor lore inconsistency (unless I'm missing something):

Spoiler

Thin-bloods aren't supposed to be able to sire; that's what makes them thin-bloods. Yet Lily sired E, even though Lily is by her admission, and according to her German sire, also a thin-blood. What's the deal with that? Is she just confused, and not a thin-blood? If so, then how come her sire just dumped her there?

All of it is really nicely voice-acted. The facial animations are great too, they've aged extremely well, and in fact I find the somewhat low-fi facial animations easier to relate to than newer, more realistic ones which are deeper in Uncanny Valley.

"Why are all these ladies walking around in their underwear?"

Yeah, that's a bit jarring. It also lessens the impact from where it counts: nothing is as un-sexy as a nudist colony, and VtM:B is a bit too far in that direction. Jeanette for example would make a much stronger impression if there weren't all those other ladies walking around wearing next to nothing.

"Is this really going to be this easy all the way through?"

So far, it's been... really easy. I've done a bunch of stuff in the first hub and am about to head off on a mission for Therese. There have been a few closed doors but nothing to stop me from easily reaching my objectives. Lots of dialog checks for Intimidate and Persuade with pretty neat results, some hacking. The only combat I've encountered so far was really really easy, and I haven't built up my combat skills much at all (picked the Academic background which dilutes some of the Brujah's built-in combat skills.)

We'll see how it goes later on. I notice a tendency to hoard XP just in case, trying to fight that actually.

So far... it's really good actually. The character development is a bit too streamlined for my taste and the moment-to-moment gameplay is frankly bad, but I find that easy to forgive because of the great writing, numerous skill checks (skill checks everywhere!), and sound and visual design that's aged surprisingly well.

To be continued...

One thing I have to disagree with is the streamlined chargen and dev. It is pretty accurate for what I know of that version of VtM. It didn't have some of the options you have in the book, but compared to most PnP to action game with heavy rpg elements this game is significantly more accurate.

What is an action game with rpg elements that is heavier than this game?

Demonicon - rpg-lite compared to source material and super rpg-lite compared to VtM: Bloodlines
VtM: Redemption - super rpg-lite linear console like game
Kotor - mechanics were more for flavor since these games are so easy and rpg-lite.
Baldur's Gate console games - super extra rpg-lite
The Genie AD&D game - super rpg lite
Sword Coast legends - super extra rpg lite

Non pnp games -
Dungeon Lords - decent game and rpg heavier than most games but hated for some unfathomable reason
Gothics - rpg lite games with super bad controls
Two Worlds - rpg lite
Risen - rpg lite
Jade Empire - super rpg-lite
Wicther games - rpg lite

Anything I missed is almost certain to be rpg lite. What do you find so streamlined about this game?

 

[Puukko]

It was pretty damn creepy the first time around but on my second playthrough I just ran and finished it in 10 minutes.

 

[Prime Junta]

You know what kind of ruined Ocean House for me even the first time I played it? I had just previously played Thief 3: Deadly Shadows. It kind of sucked overall, but nothing in any game ever has creeped me out as much as Shalebridge Cradle. Ocean House just felt like a cheap knockoff afterwards. It was basically the same premise, but the execution was so much better... or at least pushed my buttons so much better.

Roqua: The original post was just a bunch of initial, off-the-cuff impressions, and my point of comparison was with other games I've been playing recently, most of which are significantly more number-crunchy. The character creation gets the job done fine and is quite well-suited for an aRPG (or a story-heavy PnP game for that matter).

 

[Puukko]

I dropped T3 shortly after I reached the Cradle and I don't have the save file around anymore. I'd like to give it a second go, I think I'd handle it better this time around.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I died in the elevator shaft of Spook House because I panicked.



Also you can hurt Creep McSlashy if you're fast enough. He bleeds.

 

[Prime Junta]

I dropped T3 shortly after I reached the Cradle and I don't have the save file around anymore. I'd like to give it a second go, I think I'd handle it better this time around.

If you do, make a post about it. I don't think I can be arsed, I honestly can't even remember anything about that game other than the Cradle.

 

[baturinsky]

What is an action game with rpg elements that is heavier than this game?

Demonicon - rpg-lite compared to source material and super rpg-lite compared to VtM: Bloodlines
VtM: Redemption - super rpg-lite linear console like game
Kotor - mechanics were more for flavor since these games are so easy and rpg-lite.
Baldur's Gate console games - super extra rpg-lite
The Genie AD&D game - super rpg lite
Sword Coast legends - super extra rpg lite

Non pnp games -
Dungeon Lords - decent game and rpg heavier than most games but hated for some unfathomable reason
Gothics - rpg lite games with super bad controls
Two Worlds - rpg lite
Risen - rpg lite
Jade Empire - super rpg-lite
Wicther games - rpg lite

Anything I missed is almost certain to be rpg lite. What do you find so streamlined about this game?

Some Bethesda games

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Fully agree about Thief's Cradle, I played both games around the same time back then and the Ocean House kinda paled in comparison. Still it's a nice change of pace and I found it quite scary even playing it for the second time. Much shorter than I remember though. It's a railroaded ghost ride though, no discussion here, and I can see its jump scares wearing quite thin during a third playthrough.

Random observation: You guys remember the conversation where Bertram gives you the rundown on the different clans and sects? This, together with Jack's tutorial introduction, is another example of lore dumps done properly, just the right amount of dialogue to give you some basic information about the world without making going through the different nodes feel like a slog. The writing is natural and fluid, Bertram is not some Wiki article dispenser, instead he feels like a real character who's been in this shit for ever and gives you his own view on how stuff works, short and to the point.

You remember "Clans" trailer where they took some of his lines and added the vesuvius background track?



The writing in this game man, the writing...

 

[Prime Junta]

Still about that writing.

It really shines when the steel shows through. Most of the vampires you meet are pretty polite, even genial, but there are places where it just shows just how cold-hearted and ruthless they are. Consider VV, and how things go if you cosy up to her: she methodically manipulates you into premeditated murder, keeping her own silky-soft hands clean, and then luxuriates in the tragedy of the unjust world that makes such things necessary. That was some excellent writing there, with everything that counts in the subtext.

 

[baturinsky]

VV does not ask you to do something really evil. You can even have +Humanity out of doing her requests.
Also, she is quite emotionally fragile about her past, but you have to be a Malk to notice it.

 

[Prime Junta]

VV does not ask you to do something really evil. You can even have +Humanity out of doing her requests.
Also, she is quite emotionally fragile about her past, but you have to be a Malk to notice it.

She's still a cold, manipulative... vampire.