Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Puukko]

VV does not ask you to do something really evil. You can even have +Humanity out of doing her requests.
Also, she is quite emotionally fragile about her past, but you have to be a Malk to notice it.

She's still a cold, manipulative... vampire.

That's a bit redundant.

Also, about Ash. I helped him out at his club, but he still ended up being captured by the brotherhood? I don't remember him being there on my first playthrough when I never met him. Like, you help him out and he just happens to get captured after that?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Still about that writing.

It really shines when the steel shows through. Most of the vampires you meet are pretty polite, even genial, but there are places where it just shows just how cold-hearted and ruthless they are. Consider VV, and how things go if you cosy up to her: she methodically manipulates you into premeditated murder, keeping her own silky-soft hands clean, and then luxuriates in the tragedy of the unjust world that makes such things necessary. That was some excellent writing there, with everything that counts in the subtext.

No doubt but she still doesn't want any harm to come to David the wanna-be screenwriter when the vast majority of other Kindred would have offed him as well (or gotten someone else to do it) to cover their tracks more extensively.

Kindred society operates by different laws because the whole point is that they aren't human but undead predators. Killing a hunter is just survival, you're not left with many options once they've discovered you.

That's a bit redundant.

Also, about Ash. I helped him out at his club, but he still ended up being captured by the brotherhood? I don't remember him being there on my first playthrough when I never met him. Like, you help him out and he just happens to get captured after that?

I think if you help Ash, the brotherhood later captures him. If you don't, the hunters in his club just kill him and he doesn't show up in the brotherhood prison after.

 

[Multidirectional]

Ocean House is cool but I never even thought it was supposed to be actually scary. I liked it in this campy way, but scary it wasn't. Which is not a flaw in any way for me, you are a vampire so it's perfectly normal not to feel intimated by some petty ghosts.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Demonicon - rpg-lite compared to source material and super rpg-lite compared to VtM: Bloodlines
VtM: Redemption - super rpg-lite linear console like game
Kotor - mechanics were more for flavor since these games are so easy and rpg-lite.
Baldur's Gate console games - super extra rpg-lite
The Genie AD&D game - super rpg lite
Sword Coast legends - super extra rpg lite

Non pnp games -
Dungeon Lords - decent game and rpg heavier than most games but hated for some unfathomable reason
Gothics - rpg lite games with super bad controls
Two Worlds - rpg lite
Risen - rpg lite
Jade Empire - super rpg-lite
Wicther games - rpg lite

Anything I missed is almost certain to be rpg lite. What do you find so streamlined about this game?

Every rpg is ''rpg-lite'', when you know what you're doing. You have to be total tard to not breeze through these games, when you've become accommodated with mechanics. Most of the ''oldschool'' games are even easier, because they are so number reliant. I actually find more challenge with action rpgs, because i suck at twitchy combat. Games where everything is determined by numbers are just none challenging, but still fun pass time for me.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think VV was trying to manipulate you. Her requests were about getting rid of hunters and upholding the masquerade (in a non-violent way). It would be suspicious if she tries to make you commit crimes (either human or vampire ones), but she doesn't. If she's somehow manipulating you then she's a master at that. Isn't that the point of manipulation? Your victim shouldn't be aware of it.

 

[Prime Junta]

Some thoughts on the Chinatown stuff. Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but they way they mix Japanese and Chinese stuff randomly is irritating me. Like the herbal remedy guy who's supposedly a Chinese army vet but his first line starts with him barking "Hai!"

Lots of other stuff like that too. If it's supposed to be an ironic play on how Americans can't tell the difference anyway, or a very elaborate joke on the way kuei-jin is a Chinese-Japanese mishmash that doesn't work in either language, or just because the writers got lazy... I don't know. If the main writer's last name wasn't Mitsoda I'd be inclined to suspect the latter... In any case, I find it detracts from the overall experience. Chinatown just seems lazy, compared to the rest of the game up to this point.

Mr Ox is cool though.

 

[Lacrymas]

Chinatown is decline in every conceivable way. Ming is too obviously evil (the bad kind of evil lulz) and stereotypical. There's nothing really memorable outside of the shark on legs. You get a miniscule jolt of incline when they capture you and it's even worse after that.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Every rpg is ''rpg-lite'', when you know what you're doing. You have to be total tard to not breeze through these games, when you've become accommodated with mechanics. Most of the ''oldschool'' games are even easier, because they are so number reliant. I actually find more challenge with action rpgs, because i suck at twitchy combat. Games where everything is determined by numbers are just none challenging, but still fun pass time for me.

Challenge has nothing to do with it. A game could be very number crunchy with complex character creation/development systems but still have very rudimentary encounter design and AI (NWN2 OC for example or even TOEE) or have a streamlined system but use it to its fullest to create challenges for players to overcome.

I don't think VV was trying to manipulate you. Her requests were about getting rid of hunters and upholding the masquerade (in a non-violent way). It would be suspicious if she tries to make you commit crimes (either human or vampire ones), but she doesn't. If she's somehow manipulating you then she's a master at that. Isn't that the point of manipulation? Your victim shouldn't be aware of it.

Sure she is, just like every semi-major character in the game is, except the lone wolf and the man on the couch.

 

[Roguey]

If the main writer's last name wasn't Mitsoda

He's not Asian and it's definitely laziness. The actress who plays the vampire hunter doesn't even pronounce the Japanese words correctly.

 

[Sjukob]

Sure she is, just like every semi-major character in the game is, except the lone wolf and the man on the couch.

Yep , at least you can straight up tell her to fuck off .

 

[Delterius]

If the main writer's last name wasn't Mitsoda

He's not Asian and it's definitely laziness. The actress who plays the vampire hunter doesn't even pronounce the Japanese words correctly.

I saw that as part of a joke, to be honest. B Horror-Action movies in Chinatown and a japanese that sounds danish.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sure she is, just like every semi-major character in the game is, except the lone wolf and the man on the couch.

I suppose she is, but it just feels honest. Honest manipulation? Like I said, that's the point of manipulation, you shouldn't be aware of it :p Or maybe I have a soft spot for her :p

 

[Roguey]

I saw that as part of a joke, to be honest. B Horror-Action movies in Chinatown and a japanese that sounds danish.

Doesn't seem likely to me that they would tell a joke that only a subset of the audience would "get."

 

[WhiteGuts]

The Ocean House was a pretty nice touch. It's not that spooky, especially from the moment you figure out nothing is really going to happen to you. I actually found the whole ordeal kinda ironic, in that it's clearly setup as a horror setpiece...in a game about vampires.

 

[Delterius]

I saw that as part of a joke, to be honest. B Horror-Action movies in Chinatown and a japanese that sounds danish.

Doesn't seem likely to me that they would tell a joke that only a subset of the audience would "get."

I'm not sure. There's a lot of obscure references to last century's horror movies in VTMB. Plus, the game isn't consistent in tone. Trying and only sometimes succeeding in comedy. In fact, this happens somewhat often in Chinatown. Mr. Ox and the assassin partners were both references, I think.

Anyway, the point wasn't that it was a joke, rather that, oh man, what a joke. That part where you can reference tentacle porn wasn't one of Bloodlines' high points, for sure.

 

[baturinsky]

I think VV dramatics and innuendo is mostly just her being a Toreador.
Isaac and Ash are not like this (well, Ash is just dramatic), but probably Toreador curse manifests differently in each one. Just like ours in us, Malkavians.

 

[Lacrymas]

She's the only Toreador in the game who exhibits Toreador qualities. Isaac is too Ventrue-ish, while Ash is just... there. Where are the great artists and charmers? Maybe that's the point, that there are no great artists and charmers in the final days of the world, only decadence and murder. That's what I would've done anyway.

 

[Prime Junta]

She's the only Toreador in the game who exhibits Toreador qualities. Isaac is too Ventrue-ish, while Ash is just... there. Where are the great artists and charmers? Maybe that's the point, that there are no great artists and charmers in the final days of the world, only decadence and murder. That's what I would've done anyway.

Out of curiosity, do you wear a lot of eye shadow?

 

[Athelas]

She's the only Toreador in the game who exhibits Toreador qualities. Isaac is too Ventrue-ish, while Ash is just... there.

A movie producer who risked breaking the Masquerade by siring a promising actor and a former Hollywood star who can't let go of his human glory days are not Toreador-ish enough for you?

 

[Lacrymas]

Out of curiosity, do you wear a lot of eye shadow?

No :p

A movie producer who risked breaking the Masquerade by siring a promising actor and a former Hollywood star who can't let go of his human glory days are not Toreador-ish for you?

Sure, but that's only their background, their characters don't really exhibit any consequences of it, Ash is depressed, sure, but that's not a character trait. VtM:B has this problem in general actually, that there are no "main" characters and all who try to steal that spotlight are paper cutouts at best. The plot is not character-driven and they just go through the motions, trying to find/steal/destroy the sarcophagus. They also don't have relationships with each other, you are always the middle-man running errands.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Being the errand boy is something endemic in RPGs as a genre, it's not really fair to criticize VTMB on that aspect, the game is just using the trope. Also, the plot IS character-driven, it's just that you don't get to see the ones actually pulling the strings.

 

[pippin]

VV is a poseur Toreador though... That's why she's so dramatic.

 

[Shadenuat]

Ah VV

If my teenage self would met her in real life she could just stare at me and slowly cut pieces of my flesh and eat it, and I wouldn't even blink. No vampiric powers required.

Why do 3d characters in this game just look so goooood

 

[Lacrymas]

Being the errand boy is something endemic in RPGs as a genre, it's not really fair to criticize VTMB on that aspect, the game is just using the trope. Also, the plot IS character-driven, it's just that you don't get to see the ones actually pulling the strings.

I meant it in the context of the relationships between the characters. The only contact they have with each other is through you, so you are the middle-errand-man. Concerning the plot - stuff just happens and the characters react to it, it doesn't matter that someone else we never see is causing things to happen, since the end result is the same. If there was a character (that we know and see) who is deliberately doing things just so s/he can see what would happen or to manipulate events then that would be great, but unfortunately there is no such character. You might argue that Cain is this but we don't know that and we don't know how that affects him or why he's doing it. The other characters should have their own arcs though, not be clueless automata who only act because of external stimuli. I'd argue that the biggest change that happens is in your character, because of the gradual increase in power and knowledge, you get more cocky and start standing up to everyone else in the end, which is nice.

 

[Prime Junta]

Moving on.

Giovanni mansion was pretty cool although it had a slightly half-finished feel to it. Lots of pretty empty space doing nothing. Atmospheric though, and although the interactions with the partygoers weren't much more than flavour, they were decent flavour.

The Society of Leopold OTOH was kinda nice. I've slowly built up my firearms skill near max (switched to my Tremere character, with Auspex maxed out it's kind of ridiculously high), and built up a nice bunch of guns, and that place was the first time I was actually having honest, brainless fun with the gameplay, blasting away those hunters every which way. Nice long sightlines for my sniper rifle too. It was, uh, really easy though.

I did not like Hollowbrook Hotel. It was a slog, lots and lots and lots of identical decrepit rooms filled with identical enemies. Final battle was anticlimactic as it amounted to, more or less, one FOOOM! with the flamethrower I picked up from Leopold's.

Mitnick's missions were nice fun side dishes.

At this point, this is really railroady. I've wanted to switch allegiance from LaCroix to anyone -- ANYONE! -- for a while now, but no dice, none of them even want to talk to me about it. So I'm still serving that prat.