Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Wesp5]

Of course they could solve this stuff on their own, but why would they want to when they can have a minion do it? Why would they take even the slightest risk when someone else will do their bidding? Worst case, you die and they have to do it themselves, or more likely, send a less disposable minion.

You took the words right out of my mouth there! Also at the beginning LaCroix wants to kill you off, so after Nines intervenes, he sends you to do these things actually hoping that you die and he has one problem less. Only about the middle of the game he begins to appreciate your help.

Lacroix is an idiot? I think much of his too-clever-by-half nature was intentional. Certainly, there are many reasons why so many other vampires have no respect for the little prick.

Not only that, for the Camarilla L.A. is a city just won back from the Anarchs with still a lot of fighting going on. So who could be prince there? Let's send some powerhungry idiot!

It seems like many of your problems with Bloodlines would be solved if they simply forced you to go to sleep more often.

I added a line of two to imply that you are sleeping between some missions but more is not possible and would indeed be a pain in the ass.

This is all petty stuff, though, that could’ve been fixed with a few lines of dialogue to explain that you had a badass progenitor or they’re transfusing you with the blood of Cain or a dozen other things.

This is all open to speculation at the moment, but maybe the Bloodlines Prelude in the works at the moment will explain some things. After all the guy driving you around is very probably Cain himself!

They should’ve added another couple of hubs to the end so that there wasn’t so much barely interrupted combat, but they didn’t have time.

Troika did indeed plan another "latino-L.A." hub which was cut early on, there is even space for it on the quest log screen...

 

[Master]

It's also cool how XP is awarded for getting things done, usually whether or not you kill anyone. I'm hard-pressed to think of a better RPG in those regards.

That has nothing to do with Bloodlines, and everything to do with the White Wolf system. You can have a X-Files type game using the White Wolf system and get the same kind of XP rewards.

A lot of the things people like about Bloodlines is more because of the White Wolf system than Bloodlines itself. The fanbois simply do not know the difference and attribute a lot of them to Bloodlines, when it has really nothing to do with Bloodlines. It is like praising NWN2 for being a good game because of the way classes and XP worked when it is actually DnD 3.5 that you should be praising.

Yet no one gives a flying fuck about VtM: Redemption. It’s hard to implement a pnp system well. Not everyone does a great job at making it work: witness D&D 3.5 combat in ToEE vs NWN2.


There is plenty of choice and consequence in Bloodlines, it’s just not epic plot changing C&C because you play as peon. It’s built into the lore that older/earlier generation vampires can mind control you. The railroaded structure is a flaw but it’s not inconsistent with the rest of the world they built. On a micro level, you have tons of opportunities to play things out in different ways, with plenty of reactivity for those decisions.

Also, I’ve never heard anyone else call this game poorly written, because it’s amazingly well written. You have a problem with the endgame structure, not the writing. That or you have awful taste.

Someone get a rope and some pitchforks.

It is absolute shite.

From the first seconds in the theatre, it was crap. Half the freaking game is overwraught, overly melodramatic and full of selfish complete idiots. That damned ex-actor what-his-name is a prime example.

There were some good moments, but many of the quests were pretty retarded and the actions of the main players completely inconsistent. LaCroix is a prime example. Strauss also has shades of it.

80% of the vampire population and their hanger-ons that you meet are needy little twerps but somehow, you, a newborn fledgling, can solve all their problems that they who out-experience and out-age you by hundreds are incapable of doing. Not even NWN2 does that. You actually have to work your way up to the truly world changing quests. Heck, you spend much of the first act in NWN2 running around and doing peon quests. Even the orc genocide run is because Casavir showed the way for you, not that NWN2 really kept track of the in-game number of days, unlike Bloodlines, which explicitly did. In Bloodlines, you are taking out stuff that has the primogen of entire clans quaking in their boots. As a one day old vampire.

Bloodlines can only wish it was half as well written as MotB, and it is deluded if it thinks it is anywhere near as good as Ultima 7.

Yeah, MOTB characters weren't melodramatic at all.

 

[SCO]

GG world of darkness... you're just not edgy enough for the codex. Call us back when everything is dripping with testosterone, fascism or xeno fluids like WH40k and a character like Ash Rivers can't possibly exist (even if you could left him to die in Bloodlines). Then you'll be 'likable'.

What actually pisses me off about WoD in general and VtM in particular is the clans stereotypes being a shortcut to not have to 'actually create a character' and non-modded Bloodlines was fairly good at avoiding most of this (by focusing mostly on humans, sleazy sleazy humans stereotypes).

As for flaws of the game itself, it's ofc a linear romp where there is very very little point in backtracking to characters even if it's possible. The clan quest mod tried... but its limitations (and clan 'characterization') only emphasized the artificiality of the critical path and there isn't even the challenge of 'exploration' that games like Gothic use to disguise it.

But, all things said, i think that if the choice was between a 'new' bloodlines and a new gothic, i'd take bloodlines. Gothic even wins at things Bloodlines/WoD was supposed to be better at (factions and quest interaction with factions), and has things it doesn't (dangerous large world with secrets) but bloodlines is simply a more compact experience with a cooler setting and there are been many more tedious open world games. Not that I particularly like running dozens of times between the last round and the prince, but that doesn't stick to my mind especially compared to the highs of the game you know?

 

[Jimmious]

Yeah guys surprise surprise, if you don't like the setting you won't like the game. Wow!

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

A pity that Vaulderie intends to port to unity.

 

[SCO]

Vaulderie is still alive? They were pretty conclusively shut down in 2014 because the 'project leader' modeler decided to 'ask for permission' which he didn't need and got threated with legal letters without content.
(coincidentally pissing on the work of the one guy that was trying to help him by creating converters between maps from Bloodlines to Source specifically to avoid this bullshit. It's always a rather large fuckup to 'ask for permission' from a company for anything you want to be free.).

Anyway, Bloodlines will be 'rebooted' when a 'parasite of the industry' like beamdog genuflects before activision for some scraps. Funniest part is that they'll probably have the same trouble as the modders because the engine is not source-standard and i rather doubt Valve will play ball helping them.

 

[Cael]

Yeah, MOTB characters weren't melodramatic at all.

Precisely. Precisely.

 

[ArchAngel]

A pity that Vaulderie intends to port to unity.

Does not have to be pity, there are plenty of good looking and running games in Unity.

 

[Wesp5]

Vaulderie is still alive? They were pretty conclusively shut down in 2014 because the 'project leader' modeler decided to 'ask for permission' which he didn't need and got threated with legal letters without content.

As far as I know Vaulderie is dead and I don't think Atrblizzard asked CCP for permission, but he added a donate button to the website which some CCP laywers were made aware off and as this was about getting money from their IP they send the C&D letter.

Funniest part is that they'll probably have the same trouble as the modders because the engine is not source-standard and i rather doubt Valve will play ball helping them.

The first version of the Bloodlines remake was done on the Alien Swarm Source engine, but in my opinion there wouldn't have been a lot of improvement anyway. I play a lot of concurrent HL2 mods and there isn't much difference between old and new Source engine versions! Then Atrblizzard looked both at Unreal 4 and Unity 5 and started with the latter until CCP shut him down...

 

[Master]

Yeah, MOTB characters weren't melodramatic at all.

Precisely. Precisely.

Exactly.

 

[SCO]

Even worse... and i just searched for project valderie in google and i've seen this:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...king-for-contributors-to-new-wod-game.114141/

So, it seems old men don't learn new tricks and the same thing will happen. If you want to use legally dubious ideas to get money somehow at least make it something that gets at least more money than a donation link and get a impotent 'victim' without patience for legal bull. Patreon fools are good, open source projects can be violated in spirit almost at will, hipsters will buy anything (just see the 250$ 'snes' FPGA being shilled right now).

Not activision or paradox.

 

[gaussgunner]

It seems like many of your problems with Bloodlines would be solved if they simply forced you to go to sleep more often.

I added a line of two to imply that you are sleeping between some missions but more is not possible and would indeed be a pain in the ass.

Some people just don't get it that a day/night cycle would be more annoying than interesting in this game. You'd have time limits on missions. Kill the Tzimiche, slog through the warrens, and return to your safe space by sunrise or you fry and have to do it all over again. So it's implied that you sleep all day, just like it's implied that you piss and shit as needed in other games. It takes a special kind of autism to find fault in that.

Yet no one gives a flying fuck about VtM: Redemption. It’s hard to implement a pnp system well. Not everyone does a great job at making it work: witness D&D 3.5 combat in ToEE vs NWN2.

I got Redemption on sale for a buck or two and played ~40% of it. It's not terrible, it's actually pretty solid, it's just not that fun. Weird hybrid of CRPG and ARPG, overly simulationist combat (Eternity-lovers might like that), the MQ seems totally linear, and there isn't much side content of note. Even so, it has its diehard fans.

There's no day-night cycle but there is a mission where you sneak into an abandoned church in Prague, and at some point it says you wait until daytime to sneak in when most of the enemy vampires are asleep. There's some direct sunlight that burns you up quickly if you stand around in it, but sadly I didn't find an opportunity to trap the enemies in it; that would've been badass. Could've been more interesting, meh.

 

[unfairlight]

If I have the pre-patched GOG version, how do I install the newest version of the unofficial patch?

 

[JBro]

Vaulderie is still alive? They were pretty conclusively shut down in 2014 because the 'project leader' modeler decided to 'ask for permission' which he didn't need and got threated with legal letters without content.

As far as I know Vaulderie is dead and I don't think Atrblizzard asked CCP for permission, but he added a donate button to the website which some CCP laywers were made aware off and as this was about getting money from their IP they send the C&D letter.

Funniest part is that they'll probably have the same trouble as the modders because the engine is not source-standard and i rather doubt Valve will play ball helping them.

The first version of the Bloodlines remake was done on the Alien Swarm Source engine, but in my opinion there wouldn't have been a lot of improvement anyway. I play a lot of concurrent HL2 mods and there isn't much difference between old and new Source engine versions! Then Atrblizzard looked both at Unreal 4 and Unity 5 and started with the latter until CCP shut him down...

Tell him to get his ass in gear and finish it.

 

[HansDampf]

To my mind, the biggest problem with Bloodlines is that there’s not enough of it. They should’ve added another couple of hubs to the end so that there wasn’t so much barely interrupted combat, but they didn’t have time.

Before adding more broken and unfinished hubs, they should have fixed and polished what's already there. The game doesn't need a 5th hub. The main quest could have led back to previous hubs to show you more consequences of your actions.
But having listened to the Matt Chat interview with Leonard Boyarsky, it's a miracle that this game even exists at all.

 

[gaussgunner]

If I have the pre-patched GOG version, how do I install the newest version of the unofficial patch?

Just install it.

If you're using WINE, run it like this or a lot of shit will be subtly broken:

WINEDLLOVERRIDES="dbghelp=n,b" wine Vampire.exe -game Unofficial_Patch

 

[unfairlight]

gaussgunner My friend told me that if you install it on the pre-patched GOG version it breaks a lot of shit.

 

[Wesp5]

So, it seems old men don't learn new tricks and the same thing will happen.

I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to write about this here, but this time is was different. Atrblizzard contacted Paradox and their White Wolf subsidiary or whatever directly and discussed his ideas with them, avoiding to touch the IP that is still in the hands of Activison. For the time being though nothing came out of it. In my eyes the main problem is that it's not easy to move from fan-project to commercial game to get financial support unless you already have a team and something to show!

 

[Wesp5]

gaussgunner My friend told me that if you install it on the pre-patched GOG version it breaks a lot of shit.

That is not true, just install the latest UP into the same folder.

 

[gaussgunner]

gaussgunner My friend told me that if you install it on the pre-patched GOG version it breaks a lot of shit.

It only breaks the other patches. If you want to use them you can restore the original files: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ng-vtm-bloodlines.108242/page-84#post-5379851

I'd recommend you just play the latest UP, the Full Patch. It's less "authentic" but it's better all around.

 

[almondblight]

You play as the lowest man on the totem pole in the Camarilla. The important people get to tell you what to do.

There is plenty of choice and consequence in Bloodlines, it’s just not epic plot changing C&C because you play as peon. It’s built into the lore that older/earlier generation vampires can mind control you. The railroaded structure is a flaw but it’s not inconsistent with the rest of the world they built.

Yeah, you're merely a lowly peon that has no choice but to do what the prince says. Up until the point where you kill the prince (and the 100 vampires guarding him plus his uberbodygaurd) as well as the Kuejin leader (something no other vampire in the game has been able to do). After taking out an entire group of Sabbat and an entire group of Hunters on your own.

On a micro level, you have tons of opportunities to play things out in different ways, with plenty of reactivity for those decisions.

What's the reactivity? If you reconcile the Voerman sister you can later go back and talk to them and they'll tell you about eye shadow? You can decide whether or not to kill the slasher, meaning you'll never see or hear from him again, or let him go, meaning you'll never see or hear from him again? Follow the ghoul storyline to the end, or don't follow it to the end?

Also, I’ve never heard anyone else call this game poorly written, because it’s amazingly well written. You have a problem with the endgame structure, not the writing. That or you have awful taste.

I think people have a hard time distinguishing good writing and good voice acting (Irenicus is another example of this). Bloodlines had really good actors that sold their lines. But the lines themselves? Let's copy and paste the Bloodlines quotes on IMDB:

Spoiler

Malkavian: You look familiar. Were you ever on a milk carton?

Newscaster: [to the crazy Malkavian character, through the TV set] Police don't have any suspects at this time, but they're pretty sure that it was you.

Smiling Jack: Me I don't care what you do, but - just so you know - polite vampire society looks down on that kind of thing.
Toreador: Pfft. They can be polite and pass me the salt for my rat!

Jeanette: I'm the finger down your spine when all the lights are out. I'm the name on all the men's room walls. When I pout, the whole world tries to make me smile. And everyone always wants to know, who... is... that girl?

Beckett: [On how to open the Ankaran Sarcophagus] In the last few seconds, I've had very few epiphanies. I may be old, but I didn't build it. How knowledgeable are you on ancient Assyrian funerary constructs?
Malkavian: "TNT" and "key" have the same amount of letters.
Beckett: Ugh! Yes, how foolish of me, that would be the sound, reasonable course of action. A priceless piece of history - by all means run out and pick up some TNT.

Heather: While you were gone, I tapped my foot over three thousand times. I-I don't know why I counted... huh.
Malkavian: Now we know how many foot taps it takes to make me appear. Wonderful.

Jeanette: What all suede kittens do... on hands and knees, you lap up the milk of me... and we purr, kitten, like dragonflies buzzing around frog bellies.

Mercurio: Call me old fashioned, but I don't believe in talking about that stuff in front of a woman.
Ventrue: Call me old fashioned, but I believe a knee to the balls tends to make a guy talk.

Pisha: Real terror is not the sight of death, it is the fear of death. What is the fear of death? Terror of the unknown. Is it these eyes you peer into? No, I am not the unknown. You an I are closer kin than you and it were.

Smiling Jack: Every time I yank a jawbone from a skull and ram it into an eyesocket, I know I'm building a better future.

Spicoli: Where did i park my car again? Oh wait - I don't even have a car, dude!

Spicoli: All food should have like, a creamy center. And a colorful shell. And their commercial should have like, kung-fu or a giraffe.

Jeanette: I can tell you and I are going to get along just like fire hoses.
Ventrue: Fire hoses?
Jeanette: When we get turned on, there's bound to be flames.

Andrei: Do you ever worry, Deb, that the world is going to end?
The Deb of Night: I haven't felt that way since Brad Pitt got married!

If you don’t want overwrought and melodramatic characters, don’t buy a game about fucking vampires.

The writing is intentionally bad!

Lacroix is an idiot? I think much of his too-clever-by-half nature was intentional. Certainly, there are many reasons why so many other vampires have no respect for the little prick.

And yet people like Strauss and Grout are unable to stop him (and Nines too, but Nines comes off as a bit of a moron).

 

[Storyfag]

I got Redemption on sale (...)

There's no day-night cycle but there is a mission where you sneak into an abandoned church in Prague, and at some point it says you wait until daytime to sneak in when most of the enemy vampires are asleep. There's some direct sunlight that burns you up quickly if you stand around in it, but sadly I didn't find an opportunity to trap the enemies in it; that would've been badass. Could've been more interesting, meh.

It's in Vienna not in Prague. And the enemies are not vampires - they are ghouls (humans who gain special powers are kept loyal through the magical properties of the vampire blood that they are fed by their master, useful as, for example, daytime guards).

There is plenty of choice and consequence in Bloodlines, it’s just not epic plot changing C&C because you play as peon. It’s built into the lore that older/earlier generation vampires can mind control you. The railroaded structure is a flaw but it’s not inconsistent with the rest of the world they built.

Yeah, you're merely a lowly peon that has no choice but to do what the prince says. Up until the point where you kill the prince (and the 100 vampires guarding him plus his uberbodygaurd) as well as the Kuejin leader (something no other vampire in the game has been able to do). After taking out an entire group of Sabbat and an entire group of Hunters on your own.

Yeah, and in-game characters make careful note how unnatural this is. It should make you think. In your case, it clearly does not. "The blood is wasted on you!"

 

[Sizzle]

Yeah, you're merely a lowly peon that has no choice but to do what the prince says. Up until the point where you kill the prince (and the 100 vampires guarding him plus his uberbodygaurd) as well as the Kuejin leader (something no other vampire in the game has been able to do). After taking out an entire group of Sabbat and an entire group of Hunters on your own.

This has been discussed several times before.

During the course of the game, several characters remark that your power progress is astounding, and that something is off about that. It's heavily implied that someone (probably Caine) is manipulating your blood, causing you to be a lower generation near the end, and that's why you can resist LaCroix's domination.

 

[ga♥]

Why noone made a "spiritual successor" in the kickstarter crazyness

 

[Bester]

Why noone made a "spiritual successor" in the kickstarter crazyness

Considering the quality of all "spiritual successor", I'm glad nobody did.