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Robust JRPGs like Final Fantasy?

Machocruz

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It's just my personal opinion that whatever Onimusha does, more modern games like Ninja Gaiden or Nioh do it better.

If I had to choose, I would agree. O4 would be in third place, but then NG is the greatest character-action game of all time, imo, and Nioh 2 is probably the best melee-action game these days. So I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind, just putting my vote in for it being good shit and underrated.

That Xeno screen looks like a UI clusterfuck, but how does the game rate on side stuff, secrets, etc?
Machocruz said:

Eh...

It was robust, yes, but I still prefer the gameplay of 90s FF.
Too damn grindy for its own good. Most of my gameplay memories are not fond nostalgia, but trauma: endless grinding enemies for loot and bounties in big open plains, or fighting late game bosses that go on and on forever.
Level design too bland. Acceptable, but definitely at times bland.
Adventure game elements during plot beats and puzzles took a step back.
Mini-games nowhere to be seen except some low effort events. Not that they are the best thing about 90s FF gameplay.
License board was good but I don't recall any secondary upgrade/character building systems of note. Gambit system was definitely cool, I suppose that can count.
It didn't take advantage of the third dimension very much (verticality). Which should be the entire point of switching to 3D, since art has to decline as a result.

And to me it also lost all the soul of previous FF games. Music was good but not as good. Art was OK. Story just was not gripping for me. Setting was alright but I found it quite bland.

Just felt like a shitty MMO in singleplayer format. Firmly of the declined but still good category of 10, 10-2, 12 PS2 era.
Gameplay, 5 is king to me. Characters and presentation, 6. For world, maybe 9 or 6. But to be more precise, I'm saying that 12 ruined it for JRPGs that came after, except those mentioned. And as far as
secret locations, side quests, hidden loot, bosses, hidden/obscure mechanics
it was quite a beast that made anything after it that was less so feel dull and basic bitch. The hunts may be "cheating", as the are just more boss encounters, but there was still quite a bit of side stuff aside from. I did like the areas, I found dungeons to be immersive, but I'm going by memories, who knows how Id feel about them if I played today. Expectations for that kind of thing have gone up since then. The PSX games probably had the coolest levels, aesthetically.

Sakimoto is my favorite Japanese game composer, but it wasn't his strongest work, I can't remember a melody.

For some reason I'm drawing blank on puzzles in any of the games though. I know at least the PSX games had some for sure, but I can't recall specifics.

I gave up on Nioh half way through the first level becuase it felt far too derivative of Souls, and worse than it. Yes, I did not follow my own advice and lessons here and did not give it enough time to flourish so my opinion on it is basically moot, but my point is I saw very little connection to DoD. What are you talking about? Machocruz what's this guy talking about? This game is like DoD? That's horse shit. DoD is a pretty unique game. It's not even particularly like the rest of the Onimusha games. I feel like you're judging DoD based on experience with say Onimusha 1, which is a rather different game. It'd be like judging 90s FF based on FF13 or 7Remake or 15, when they couldn't be any more different.

Now that i think about it, what I experienced with Nioh WAS somewhat like Onimusha 1. Which again, is very, very different to DoD.
I can't speak for him, but one could consider Nioh to be in the same ball park as DoD, if only by way of how different they are from other TP sword games. They occupy a mid-space between more grounded combat (represented by, say, Severance) and acrobatic combo fests (Bayonetta). Nioh (2 at least) is further towards the combo-fest side, a good player can pull off some fairly long strings, but it still feels "heavier" and combo counts are lower. DoD is heavier still, but still more stylized and flashy than the grounded games.

Like I said, if I HAD to choose, Nioh 2 would get it over DoD, otherwise I don't see one as a replacement for the other, these are two different flavors to me. People used to say Bayonetta made DMC obsolete, and I didn't agree with that at all. There's more beyond surface similarities.
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Btw, PS1, and PS2 Tales games + Vesperia/Graces f are basically lower budget action rpg Final Fantasy.

The newer ones don't have that feel to them.
 

Modron

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You know how FF games (I'm referring mostly to 6-10 and 12) always have this robust hidden stuff like secret locations, side quests, hidden loot, bosses, hidden/obscure mechanics etc and people can write 3 MB .txt guides covering all that shit?
Lufia 2 fits your requirements to a T. Surprised no one has mentioned it yet.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story
Exploration
Puzzle & adventure game elements, ideally at all times (included in the story segments as well as dungeons)
Extensive Party/character building RPG systems allowing for lots of freedom of choice & strategy - stats, abilities, perks, whatever.
Optional shit (secrets, side quests, mini-games)
Strategy (party formation, certain battles requiring certain builds, item management etc)
Navigation challenge (where to go next, maze-like level design etc).
Combat at the center of it all.

FF is this.
That takes some hardcore squinting though.

But as long as we are squinting:
Lufia 2 fits your requirements to a T. Surprised no one has mentioned it yet.
 

Ash

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Bro you think Chrono Trigger is good when its gameplay is borderline just combat and terrible combat at that. Your opinion on this subject is void.
 

Poseidon00

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So you played just one 30 second game and decided it was beneath you without exploring any of its depth or giving it time to evolve...
Always try your best to not knee-jerk judge games, haven't you learnt? Video games most commonly have introductory/tutorial periods where they drip-feed you the game to not overwhelm. You need to give them time. That's why I made myself suffer through 8-10 hours of suikoden 2, or all of Chrono Trigger, despite never resonating with it from the start. You don't need to give that much of your time but 30 seconds introductory is not enough.

Later the card game introduces lots of new rules, rules shift around regions based on your choices, it loops back to the core gameplay in a significant way with the Card mod and Card Refine abilities, and you can bypass a lot of magic drawing with Card Refine. Playing with FF8's Hardtype mod 'Rebirth' the card game practically becomes mandatory to a degree and that's a good thing.

Now we know why people don't understand what OP is talking about. Triple triad is legit one of the best things about FF8, and I HATE card games normally. In fact it's probably what spoiled normal card games for me.


Walking around the overworld finding people to challenge to Triple Triad and trying to find all the rare cards was the best part of the game. All the extra side content like hidden "master" players really added to it.
 

Jack Of Owls

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Every 15-20 years or so I play and complete a jRPG. Last one I completed was Rune Factory 2 (more of an aJRPG) in emulation about 10 years ago. Last jRPG I played (but didn't complete) was BotW. Burnt myself out before I got half-way. These things are just too damn long, sonny.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Bro you think Chrono Trigger is good when its gameplay is borderline just combat and terrible combat at that. Your opinion on this subject is void.

You wrote this:

Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story
Exploration
Puzzle & adventure game elements, ideally at all times (included in the story segments as well as dungeons)
Extensive Party/character building RPG systems allowing for lots of freedom of choice & strategy - stats, abilities, perks, whatever.
Optional shit (secrets, side quests, mini-games)
Strategy (party formation, certain battles requiring certain builds, item management etc)
Navigation challenge (where to go next, maze-like level design etc).
Combat at the center of it all.

FF is this.

You don't get to void any opinions. And it's become painfully obvious in this thread that you do in fact hate on CT just to be edgy because the above demonstrated mental gymnastics could easily be applied to CT making it the zomg best jRPG EVAR, which would be equally dumb as the shit quoted above. ggnore, go play Rise of the Sinistrals.
 

Ash

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Cry some more because your favorite shit kiddo game is being exposed as the retard zero substance game it is. It is you that is applying mental gymnastics. Well, not really, you're just too dumb and imperceptive to see CT for what it is. Go ahead, defend your shit game. Explain how it has the above merits to any reasonable degree. I have explained how it doesn't, I go in depth, provide examples and counterexamples of how it should be done using its more successful and popular competitor (FF), and all you can say is "nuh uh" and make RETARDED generic loose claims to the contrary. Delete yourself dumbfuck, else admit you are wrong, have terrible taste and zero standards in gameplay. Not that we don't already know it, but you must learn it too. Be self-aware, if nothing else.

Lufia 2 lol. I've played it. Better than CT but still rather lackluster by my standards. Still, it is worthy by comparison. It actually has something resembling level design to start with, unlike CT.
 
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HeatEXTEND

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Why would I go in-depth? You have obviously made up your "mind" and are deriving some sense of superiority from it, which would be fine if your position wasn't so retarded. You're just being an edgy faget.
Again, you wrote this:

Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story
Exploration
Puzzle & adventure game elements, ideally at all times (included in the story segments as well as dungeons)
Extensive Party/character building RPG systems allowing for lots of freedom of choice & strategy - stats, abilities, perks, whatever.
Optional shit (secrets, side quests, mini-games)
Strategy (party formation, certain battles requiring certain builds, item management etc)
Navigation challenge (where to go next, maze-like level design etc).
Combat at the center of it all.

FF is this.

I played ff VI twice (admitedly a looong time ago, just like CT) and these attributes can be ascribed to it sure, if you're 12, for anyone who's played a shitload of good games with these attributes it's a joke.
And to be clear, yeah FF VI is much, much better than CT imo, but that's besides the point.
 
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Ash

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Aha, we're making progress. Yes, compared to cRPGs, some (not all) of FF6 RPG elements can be seen as lacking. I haven't claimed otherwise. But the whole point of this thread is, compared to other JAPANESE RPGs, Final Fantasy is pretty much the best it gets. See the thread title. Robust gameplay. CT is the polar opposite at the worst, in this regard; it's not even remotely an RPG. Barely a game too, given the effort put into the gameplay is so minimal. Maybe you should actually play it again instead of talking nonsense.

FF6 is actually the least notable example of the 90s FF in this regard, as it's a good chunk of hours before it stops being a barebones dumb linear story ride like CT (though still a bit better) and actually opens up. But it does so in quite a significant way that I forgive its first handful of hours.
 
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Ash

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Who brought it up or not is relevant how? Reading comprehension, buddy.
 

HeatEXTEND

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Who brought it up or not is relevant how?
Right, so what exactly is relevant here? I'm getting an inkling that what you ascribe to me, crying and seething over muh CT (lol), is a rather accurate projection of you yourself when someone takes a slight jab, if even that, at your own jRPG golden calf. Relax, FFVI is a good game.
and so is CT :lol:
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
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Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story
Exploration
Puzzle & adventure game elements, ideally at all times (included in the story segments as well as dungeons)
Extensive Party/character building RPG systems allowing for lots of freedom of choice & strategy - stats, abilities, perks, whatever.
Optional shit (secrets, side quests, mini-games)
Strategy (party formation, certain battles requiring certain builds, item management etc)
Navigation challenge (where to go next, maze-like level design etc).
Combat at the center of it all.

FF is this.

Which Final Fantasy had "Dialogue options that effect gameplay and story"?

Anyway for the thread, Breath of Fire 2/3/4 may fit, they all have a fishing and town building mini-game, which rewards you with good equipment, Breath of Fire 2 had the Fusion side content, fusing characters to get stronger characters, and you had to explore to find the witches to allow different fusions. Breath of Fire 3 and 4 have the dragon forms side content as well. In 3 and 4, you also had the teachers who could change your characters build and gain different abilities. You could learn abilities from monsters as well. And two different endings depending on your choice at the final boss. Lot to explore and find in these games. Breath of Fire 1 as well but i kinda of hate that game, most bland combat ever.

Lufia 2 had the roguelike Dungeon, endless replayable and could reward you with good loot, there is not a lot of incentive to do so since the game combat is really easy, but some romhacks might help it that. The game also had pokemonish side content, with different monsters to raise to help you. Lufia 2 is famous for its dungeon puzzles, which are the best part of the game.

When it comes to exploration, the best i've played so far is Golden Sun The Lost Age, so much backtracing to find secrets, new abilities that unlocks new secrets and so on... almost open world. The entire game is about is about gainning new abilities that allow you to get into places you could not before, so its like a Metroidvania in JRPG form. Lots of secret bosses and the difficulty is just right, for the bosses at least, random encounters are pretty easy. Lots of puzzles, lots of secret bosses, lots of optional djnns. A baldur's gate 2ish crafting system. Some character customization. There is a Hard Mode, but sadly only after completing the game. Fantastic game in my opinion, i'm not a fan of the first game though.

Star Ocean 1 on SNES had a robust character customization, after levelling up, you had a lot of skills to chose where to put your points on, from cooking to crafting to alchemy to combat skills.. there is a lot. The game have a lot of optional recruitable characters, as well as dialogue options and other optional content and so on... The game does not hold you hand when it comes to exploration, i got lost a lot of times, in fact right at the beginning of the game i found a secret dungeon where i got one shotted by the enemies there. I heard there are different endings as well. I haven't beaten the game but from what i played it fits you criteria. And i assume Star Ocean 2 is the same, and i heard that game has a lot of optional content and 50+ endings, so even more so.

Saw someone bashing Suikoden, and i agree it's not deep gameplay wise, but for exploration, the incentive is to find new recruitable characters and how to recruit them, that's why i never did and you should not play with a guide, of course i never came close to get all the characters to get the "good" ending but the "good" ending kinda sucks anyway, so i wouldn't and you should not bother with it. I've played Suikoden 1 and 2 multiple times and on replaying it i recruited new characters i could not before, and even side quests, so there's a lot to explore there.

Dragon Quest 3 on SNES is one of my favourites ones, it has character creation like FF1 except for the main character who is always a Hero, but there still a lot of character customization from you heroes to the party members, you could change the characters personalities after reading a book/tome or sometimes wearing specific itens, these personalities change how much and what attributes you characters gain after leveling up, these books/tomes are hidden all over the place, you need a wiki to understand their effects on characters though: https://dragon-quest.org/wiki/List_of_personality_types_in_Dragon_Quest_III ,but don't read where to find the books/tomes or you would spoil the fun. You could change party members classes later on, kinda like a multi class system, to make them stronger and there is a stronger class that requires special conditions. The game also introduced the Pachisi board mini game which is my favourite mini game in any JRPG ever:


Very rewarding equipment as prizes as well.

You could collect medals and exchange them for powerful itens, those medals are hidden all over the world, there is a trick to help find them but i won't spoil it. The exploration aspect of the game is flawless, once you get the ship it almost becomes open world. Sadly the game is lacking in bosses, when there are, they are good challenge and epic, but there is only a few of them.

Vagrant Story, i beat it for the first time recently, honestly, if you want a deep and maybe even convoluted gameplay mechanics, this is the one. There is a lot of stats and systems and submenus to keep track on. Your criteria:
certain battles requiring certain builds
Fits perfectly here, if you don't have the right weapon at the right boss you do literally 0 damage, and it is often, specially if you're new to the game, you're going to get your ass kicked hard, it's the hardest JRPG i've played so far. This game is just so unique it's kinda of a masterpiece, the enemy encounter is the best i've seen in a JRPG, every encounter feels like a deliberately placed challenge, which is the very much opposite of the vast majority of RPGs(J or not) encounters where the encounters feels like it's there just to waste your time. The Bosses are fantastic too, very challenging and memorable, each requiring specific ways to defeat it. The game have a very robust crafting system as well that unfortunately does not make any sense, like if you combine two daggers you get something so different that it feels super random, so a lot of trial and error is required there, just like fusing monsters in SMT 1 and 2. The game also have sometimes a out of place but fun and challenging box puzzles here and there. My finished save file say that i have explored 78% of the game, so there is a lot left there to explore and i heard there is a optional New Game+ super dungeon, with tough monsters and bosses.

Valkyrie Profile i haven't played much, but from what i did, it does fit the criteria, the gameplay mechanics can be pretty overwhelming at first, kinda like Vagrant Story, with lots of submenus and stats, lot of the content feels optional, and the game has 3 different endings, unfortunately the "good" ending is pretty much impossible without a guide, but if this "good" ending is like the "good" endings in others JRPGs, where everything is fixed and everyone is happy, then it might not be worth bothering with it.

Same with Chrono Cross, lots of optional characters, endings, content and exploration. And a crafting system.

Three others games that i haven't played it yet but i heard they are all about side quests and nonlinearity: Metal Max, Legend of Mana and Arc The Lad 3.
 
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Elthosian

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I’d recommend the Baten Kaitos games, if anything because the card-based combat is pretty fun. The first game is a bit rough around the edges but I’d say give them a try.
 
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Golden Sun: Fantastic game in my opinion, i'm not a fan of the first game though.
What would you say makes the difference? I bounced off the first one several times but I'm honestly not sure why, never tried the second one.
The exploration and Metroidvania-esque aspect is what makes me like The Lost Age so much, which is missing in the first game, in The Lost Age you have to work your way throughout the game, if you don't explore, memorize the locations or take notes, you don't progress. In the first game you're just on rails or on auto mode, save for some puzzles, so The Lost Age is more engaging imo. Golden Sun 1 just feels like a very generic bland linear JRPG, but i'm not sure if i was just in a bad mood when i played it. The game has the worst introduction ever, too much talking! i did beat it though and i remember the Kraken and Coliseum fight well, even now after 7 years.

In The Lost Age you play as some of the "villains" of the first game, so you could see their view of the conflict, the story feels refreshing, bigger dungeons and better puzzles as well, it's just a nice sequel.
 
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Arthandas

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I’d recommend the Baten Kaitos games, if anything because the card-based combat is pretty fun. The first game is a bit rough around the edges but I’d say give them a try.
I'm definitely going to check the new remasters when they hit Steam.
 

Yuber

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You know how FF games (I'm referring mostly to 6-10 and 12) always have this robust hidden stuff like secret locations, side quests, hidden loot, bosses, hidden/obscure mechanics etc and people can write 3 MB .txt guides covering all that shit? What other JRPGs are like that? I don't consider Dark Souls a JRPG but it's very similar in that regard.

The only other series I played that fits the bill (more or less) is Persona...

Skies of Arcadia Legends.
Dragon Quest 8.
 

Ash

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Golden Sun: Fantastic game in my opinion, i'm not a fan of the first game though.
What would you say makes the difference? I bounced off the first one several times but I'm honestly not sure why, never tried the second one.
The exploration and Metroidvania-esque aspect is what makes me like The Lost Age so much, which is missing in the first game, in The Lost Age you have to work your way throughout the game, if you don't explore, memorize the locations or take notes, you don't progress. In the first game you're just on rails or on auto mode, save for some puzzles, so The Lost Age is more engaging imo. Golden Sun 1 just feels like a very generic bland linear JRPG, but i'm not sure if i was just in a bad mood when i played it. The game has the worst introduction ever, too much talking! i did beat it though and i remember the Kraken and Coliseum fight well, even now after 7 years.

In The Lost Age you play as some of the "villains" of the first game, so you could see their view of the conflict, the story feels refreshing, bigger dungeons and better puzzles as well, it's just a nice sequel.

Generally I agree The Lost Age is a lot better, but you undervalue the first game's gameplay a fair bit.

-Elaborate puzzling dungeon level design, often labyrinthian, and involve using your magic to solve outside of combat. Definitely not standard for JRPG.
-Towns have secret content - some of it even requiring returning later once you have the required magic - as well as a notable degree of interactivity (rummaging through people's shit for loot namely).
-The resource attrition between save points is fairly decent/testing if I recall, and the game overall not hardcore but not too easy either.
-Inventory has limited space, and is divided into four individual inventories per party member. It could still be executed better, but it's above average for JRPG inventory.
-Djinn and equipment result in a notable amount of strategy & build freedom, though it's still quite elementary stuff and should have been better.

Despite all this positive gameplay goodness, despite the very good graphics and art style, I still probably would not recommend it nor it's sequel. Not to an adult gameplayfag of prestige anyway. Indeed the story has some warts like your example of the intros, jesus fuck does it go on in both games. I don't like some style choices like using emojis to express character's emotions instead of funny animations. The music is alright but could be better. The overworld in GS1 is almost irrelevant, and still not that great in GS2. Combat could use both more depth and challenge though it isn't the worst in either regard. Story segments almost never do anything unique with the gameplay despite plenty potential, just endless talking. And the story is just OK in general. Also as GREAT as the puzzle design in dungeons is, it's rather constant and perhaps overwhelming in terms of pacing. They could have used more varied gameplay styles of dungeon, like Final Fantasy does. Even just a 15% reduction in puzzle focus in favor of other styles would help here. It should still be a puzzle-heavy game of course as it is very good at that.

Anyway, no recommendation, despite it being far better than most JRPGs I've ever played that aren't 90s Final Fantasy. The thing is it's just like FF just...65% as good. Why bother?
 
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Reinhardt

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You know how FF games (I'm referring mostly to 6-10 and 12) always have this robust hidden stuff like secret locations, side quests, hidden loot, bosses, hidden/obscure mechanics etc and people can write 3 MB .txt guides covering all that shit? What other JRPGs are like that?
another eden.
huge online single player jrpg from masato kato. online - as it's gacha, but game is perfectly playable with only free characters(there are 50+ free characters after all, half of them from colaboration with other jrpgs like tales of or octopath traveller) and i would say probably even better played like this because some late paid characters are absurdly strong. old characters regularly getting upgrades to make them competitive in new, harder content.
single player - because you don't interact with other people AT ALL.
unironically thousands hours of content at this point. no missable or time-limited stuff like in other gachas. everything added to the game stays forever.
hidden bosses? at this point there is probably 100+. from stuff you can beat at mid level to monsters that need heavily optimized teams. like that pigdog lindwyrm which i activated 2 days ago and now can't farm mats in peace, because any random encounter in his hunting range can be him and he's very nasty.
 

wolfbane

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Dragon Quest does side content better than FF in my opinion. You can check wells and find stuff in the bookcases and all of that. Some DQs are better than others, as has been mentioned many times, VIII has some of the most side content. The 3DS version has even more.

Star Ocean II has good side content and quite a bit of it. Not to mention it has stuff like stealing and all kinds of out-of-combat actions.

Ys I doesn’t necessarily have “side content” per se, but if you like games that are more about adventuring in the countryside and trying to figure out where to go next, it’s one of my favorite examples.
 

Ash

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Dragon Quest does side content better than FF in my opinion. You can check wells and find stuff in the bookcases and all of that

FF has a decent amount of environmental interactivity too, though it does depend on the game; some more than others.

Also, you may want to check the thread over. When OP refers to "robust gameplay" he is not merely only talking about side content, though that is a big part of it for sure.
 

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