Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Where Journalism Goes to Write Itself

[Metro]

I didn't say they were lazy I said it's not hard work. Also please explain to me the savvy nuances of video game criticism -- what is this secret knowledge that would elude people such as myself or the average Codex poster?

 

[Grunker]

Nobody knows more about video games than me

OK, Metro, if you say so. It's not a standpoint I can possibly debate meaningfully.

 

[Metro]

When did I ever say that? Instead of responding you just comeback with a dismissive jibe. I guess you can't debate it meaningfully if you don't even try.

 

[Grunker]

When did I ever say that? Instead of responding you just comeback with a dismissive jibe. I guess you can't debate it meaningfully if you don't even try.

I'm not going to offer a counterpoint to the opinion that there are no nuances in game development or games critcism. You might as well have said "nobody can tell me anything." The opinion that you cannot extend your knowledge of games criticism is so relativist it is impossible to argue.

It's also pretty dumb to accuse me of not trying after putting up a strawman of "ooooh, secret games critcism knowledge!"

 

[Metro]

And... again... you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not talking about development. Development takes creativity. I'm talking about criticism. And if my standpoint that there isn't really any game criticism one can engage in that isn't anything more involved than what you'd see on numerous threads on the Codex or other forums (albeit not in essay form) = 'nobody can tell me anything,' then so be it. You want to claim I'm ignorant of something, which is fine as there are oodles of things I'm ignorant of but, at the same time, you refuse to explain how precisely I'm ignorant of it or, hell, just provide examples of criticism that you can't find here or on similar forums.

I've seen you engage in game criticism, I've seen Brother None engage in it, I've seen Sea engage it, Captain Shrek, DU, VD, Jesus pretty much every other poster on the Codex. Are we all highly trained critics?

Edit: Stop editing your posts!

P.S.: I still love you.

 

[Grunker]

And... again... you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not talking about development. Development takes creativity. I'm talking about criticism. And if my standpoint that there isn't really any game criticism one can engage in that isn't anything more involved than what you'd see on numerous threads on the Codex or other forums (albeit not in essay form) = 'nobody can tell me anything,' then so be it. You want to claim I'm ignorant of something, which is fine as there are oodles of things I'm ignorant of but, at the same time, you refuse to explain how precisely I'm ignorant of it or, hell, just provide examples of criticism that you can't find here or on similar forums.

You start off saying I'm putting words into your mouth, and then you say the exact things I've been "accusing" you off. Nobody can tell you anything about games that you don't already know. Games criticism = informing about games. The more you know about EVERYTHING surrounding games, the better you are able to critique.

As such, you are postulating that nobody can tell you anything about games you don't already know. I cannot argue with that. No matter which books or people I provide you with as examples, it will be a moot point, because we have already established you do not believe they will tell you anything of use.

Suffice it to say, I think that's an extremely arrogant opinion, but I've called you out on it before, so we're not getting anywhere.

I've seen you engage in game criticism, I've seen Brother None engage in it, I've seen Sea engage it, Captain Shrek, DU, VD, Jesus pretty much every other poster on the Codex. Are we all highly trained critics?

Did I say "you can't criticize without being educated"? No. Did I say "you can give better criticism when you're educated"? Yes

P.S. I wouldn't talk about this with you if I didn't love you <3

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I've seen you engage in game criticism, I've seen Brother None engage in it, I've seen Sea engage it, Captain Shrek, DU, VD, Jesus pretty much every other poster on the Codex. Are we all highly trained critics?

Taking in account our massive experience with gaming, I would say yes.

 

[Metro]

My point in agreeing with Lund was that it doesn't take any specialized knowledge to critique games (thus the analogies to sports and business journalism) not that there is nothing new someone could impart upon me in critiquing something. That is, my point is those people you could point out aren't necessarily going to be any better at it than you or the other people posting in this thread.

 

[Grunker]

My point in agreeing with Lund was that it doesn't take any specialized knowledge to critique games (thus the analogies to sports and business journalism) not that there is nothing new someone could impart upon me in critiquing something. That is, my point is those people you could point out aren't necessarily going to be any better at it than you or the other people posting in this thread.

Which I disagree strongly with. The notion that more knowledge can't make you better at your job is totally alien to me.

 

[Lhynn]

spec ops the line was certainly something i didnt want to play, didnt find it fun at all, but it evoked in me feelings that no war movie ever did, and that is a form of art.

You didn't want to play it. o_O
It was not fun at all.
Yet it's a great a war movie.



The absurdity is hitting me on the thighs and ass.

I can see what he's trying to get at. I mean, the game's mechanics are about as "fun" as any modern realistic shooter can be, but it tears away the "you're the hero, way to go!" background morality other modern shooters fed to you via IV, and replaces it with a crack ball of freebasing "you fucking douche, why'd you do that?".

It falls apart under any examination, however, because there are no choices to not be a douche. They create the illusion of you actually making those terrible choices, but in fact there are none to be had. Everything you can do is bad, so you are not really bad, so much as a victim of someone trying to make you feel like shit. It's like if Bioware designed an art installation.

Still more interesting than any Bioware game, though, in case people were ready to misunderstand what I'm saying there.

Yeah, pretty much, it is possible for a game to inspire more than fun. The gameplay was shit, with regenerating health, cover based nonsense were seemingly normal soldiers fight against 2 armies of mooks. The only redeemable value of the game was in the cutscenes.
There was a point in the game were i almost just quit and uninstall, very early on... but then the characters did something... and i decided to stick around for the ride because i wanted to know what happened next, and i suffered through the awful gameplay because of that. And i dont regret it.
The fact that you didnt have a choice wasnt so much an illusion as a mechanic, those instances were there to make you feel like you were in charge, to make you experience the things as if you were the 4rth member of the team, to give you a part on it.

Anyway, its a must play, it is good because of its writing and design, and its one of the few games were you can see how most stuff on it was intentional, the awful repetitive gameplay that is so common on mms (Which most non-shooter fans only put up with because of the amazing writing), the multiple choices you get trough it, the setting, the level design, etc. While at the same time not being pretentious.

It is a commentary on a whole genre, and if that game is not art, then i dont know what is.

 

[Maiandros]

perhaps i should leave this as epilogue; To my overthinking, yeah yeah

You boys and girls seem to have a very fixed idea of journalism in your collective heads. Namely one associated with a capital benefit, what most relate to as 'professional'. You can have Journalism, as the expression of such, sure, but you may also have journalism. Just as, on a different spectrum, you have history, and you also have History. Yes? You may also have anything in between. As long as your expectations, dictated needs and ---agenda--- reflect them appropriately. I would ask you to consider this, even if only superficially, by say comparing popular 'decline' threads with their posters' actual gaming habbits/ideas/beliefs. I know not about 'seriouz', but i do comprehend serious. And serious does not dictate the lack of lols, no. Serious is being ---conscious---, having an active agenda, pursuing it constantly. Certain antitheses noted in between Codex articles, known posters' comments and so on made me post here in the first place. Double standards is rote here people. Is one not entitled to? Sure i guess. I however neither own nor am affiliated with this site. As such, allow me to note said problem. To the inevitable stupid random reply, YES, i am fine with Codex being a non-professional site. Not the issue..

Secondly..politik. Or a-politik more like. Ideas add up, behaviours influence, expectations urge. And it all adds up. Up to a collective. Change occurs at that point. At the collective. Again too serious? Politics, is he mad? You do it all the time though. Way you have been treating your wife since she was your girlfriend, setting up limits, regulating expectations. So things wouldn't go out the window. You do it with your kids, your boss, your acquaintances. Do it here too..i am addressing adults who take this nerd thing (gaming) a bit more seriously than most Remember that Avellone interview where he was discussing concept in PE i think it was? First 2,3 pages were about the interviewer's tits, and whether he'd nailed her or not by the end of the day. Good lols (though your tastes suck, she was a fucking cow). But where's the politik. Because you do have one, don't you. You at least purport to having one each and every fucking time you whine. About Bioware, about decline, about Gamespot, or whatever. And then go post in the DESU thread. A self conscious, aware individual is a quality on its own. Per se. In everything, RPGCodex included. Is it something self-evident? Occasionally glimpsed even? Or maybe the odd note amongst the cacophony? Get my point now about how, when and whom for we cover things?

Again, no offense to Infinitron, Grunker, DU, CB or whomever. Just a moron's opinions. Let them rot.

 

[RK47]

tldr

 

[Infinitron]

sup drog

 

[Shevek]

I remember going to E3 years ago. My friend worked at a bank and somehow used that to get us two free tickets. This was before E3 got more restrictive.

First thing I did was to go see Deus Ex 2. I was a huge fan of part 1 and this was my main reason to go to the show. I could tell right away the game was a huge departure from the original. The had a demo going and it was... disappointing. Crap gameplay, clausterphobic levels, uniform bullets, etc etc. There were a bunch of details that had not been talked about in the general gaming press. Any fans of the original would surely be pissed at this yet after E3 no gaming journalist called the devs out on the BS that was being done to the DX brand. I went on the official forums and tried to tell folks. I made a long and detailed post with plenty of specifics. I was shouted down. I was called overly pessimistic. Nobody else has been telling them what I told them (and so late in the dev cycle too!) so why should they believe me? Then the game came out and people started to complain about it.

Gaming journalism has been crap for a while now. The only reason to go to those sites is for videos and screenshots. In general, its best to wait for the game to come out and then talk to people about it on the forums.

 

[Scrub]

Good editoritial - Dont think the Codex should count on being invited again though, and that in its own peculiar way says something about what is accepted as video game criticism.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The main problem with gaming is that it's full of enthusiasts. And by enthusiasts I mean fucking addicts.

 

[Sceptic]

This thread has moved way too fast, but there's a couple of things I feel I need to address.

I believe Maindros point was that the Codex may be getting a little too close to the fire with some of the coverage. If we look back at the doritos-gate, the issue wasn't that there was explicit corruption in gaming journalism, which was very likely rare, but that the nature of relationship between the journalists and the game PR/companies compromises the former's ability to stay neutral. I think shades of that (though it isn't PR, but developers themselves in the Codex's case) were somewhat evident in Gragt's preview, extremely thorough though it was, and more substantively in the Gamescom previews. Plenty of words were dedicated to informing how nice the developers were, their passion for the games they're making, how their hearts are in the right place, how hard they're trying, how hopeful one should be about the games etc. How much truth is in there is not the question, and it's likely all that is true, but the previews do not read like written from a neutral perspective.

I don't think you understood the real issue with Doritosgate. First it wasn't that corruption was very rare, quite the contrary, it was completely intitutionalized. Second, by "corruption" nobody meant "journalists saying nice things about the developers:" we were talking about, to pick the best example, Lauren Wainwright writing superlative reviews of Square games while she was a Square employee. The equivalent here would be if the Codex had sent Gragt to write this piece on DOS and DC while he actually worked at Larian, or if Jarl and Grunker turned out to working at the Ubisoft PR department. The closest thing we've ever gotten to is with Brother None, but even there this was completely avoided because BN never wrote a piece praising Inxile, and in any case he's more Gamebanshee than Codex - and guess what, he quit Gamebanshee when joining Inxile, again completely avoiding any parallel with Doritos.

Kzero, I guess we formed very different views due to the differences in the magazines we read.

 

[Lancehead]

I don't think you understood the real issue with Doritosgate. First it wasn't that corruption was very rare, quite the contrary, it was completely intitutionalized. Second, by "corruption" nobody meant "journalists saying nice things about the developers:" we were talking about, to pick the best example, Lauren Wainwright writing superlative reviews of Square games while she was a Square employee.

Uh, we are saying the same thing. Note that I used the term "explicit corruption", as in money-under-the-table stuff. What you refer to as institutionalised corruption, I referred to as the nature of the relationship between journalists and PR. Wainwright was a more blatant example of it, but the relationship does not necessarily include having previously worked for the game company whose game you're commenting on.

The equivalent here would be if the Codex had sent Gragt to write this piece on DOS and DC while he actually worked at Larian, or if Jarl and Grunker turned out to working at the Ubisoft PR department. The closest thing we've ever gotten to is with Brother None, but even there this was completely avoided because BN never wrote a piece praising Inxile, and in any case he's more Gamebanshee than Codex - and guess what, he quit Gamebanshee when joining Inxile, again completely avoiding any parallel with Doritos.

You misunderstand the comparison. The comparison is in the end result, that I personally did not find the previews written from neutral perspective. Grunker writes that "journalism goes to write itself", and I'm saying that's what seems to have happened in the case of Codex too.

mindx2, by "keep a healthy distance" I did not mean cut back on developer interaction, but to stay away from situations which Grunker describes in his article.

 

[Thrasher]

Good article, Grunker. Glad to see you weren't snookered, and show integrity. Game "Journalism" hasn't existed for years.

 

[Lhynn]

So all we got for gaming journalists are two retards with about as good a taste for games as a 12 year old thats just trying something different from halo?

 

[RK47]

12 year olds don't play Skyrim Rape Mods.

 

[Sensuki]

Good Read

At times it feels like there are people on here who have been bought too.

 

[ghostdog]

Excellent article Grunker ! And it has spawned an interesting and amusing discussion.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=670049

Grunker , you even managed to catch the eye of Kotaku's own Jason Schreier, known far and wide for his uncompromising stance during the Florence/Wainwright scandal.

Also, you were just unlucky to find yourself at presentations with no questions being asked, and are probably just fishing for clicks for the Codex anyway.

Seriously, I couldn't make this shit up if I tried.

 

[Infinitron]