Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Interview RPG Codex Exclusive Interview: bitComposer's Take on the Chaos Chronicles Dispute

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,505
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hobgoblin: January may have been an impossible date, but it wasn't the only date they offered.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The main problem I have with this interview, is that bitComposer has this really crappy track record of releasing shitty unfinished games. Citadels, JA:BiA, you name it. That they kind of hand-waved the Citadels question by saying "it's, like, totally different; trust us!", didn't help either.

If not for that, I would be completely on their side; as things stand, however, I don't think they care about releasing a good game - they only seem to care about churning stuff out as fast as possible. Just my $0.02, of course.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
The main problem I have with this interview, is that bitComposer has this really crappy track record of releasing shitty unfinished games. Citadels, JA:BiA, you name it. That they kind of hand-waved the Citadels question by saying "it's, like, totally different; trust us!", didn't help either.

If not for that, I would be completely on their side; as things stand, however, I don't think they care about releasing a good game - they only seem to care about churning stuff out as fast as possible. Just my $0.02, of course.

I certainly agree that Citadels is pretty damning (I don't care if you want a return on your investment, you don't put out broken unfinished shit, you gambled and you lost), and that's why we asked about it. But JA:BiA wasn't unfinished or even really that shitty by some objective definition. It was certainly something the Codex and other people who hoped to see a real Jagged Alliance wouldn't like, but it was a pretty cool Commandos-like if looked at in a vacuum.
 
Self-Ejected

HobGoblin42

Self-Ejected
Patron
Developer
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
2,417
Location
Munich
Codex 2013 Codex USB, 2014
For a publisher it can make sense to throw garbage on the market. No trial version and no reviews at launch time are good indications for that. Just to get a quick buck/euro until everybody realized how bad the product actually is (STEAM definitely needs to introduce refunding). One publisher cancels crappy projects and nobody will ever hear about it, other publishers just put it on the market.

JA:BiA had a trial version and everybody could test the game before spending money (one reason why calling JA:BiA shovelware is fundamentally wrong). And that's why I would always defend JA:BiA despite all trouble with bitComposer.

But for developers (especially small studios), releasing an unfinished bugfest can be a total desaster. It ruins your biography, it ruins your team motivation and you will lose your original intention to make games at all. In many case you will lose your company or job as well.
And most important of all: as developer you invest so much energy, time and passion into a game, seeing all this work going down the toilet can be very frustrating.

I am very sorry for the devs of Citadels, no matter if the incomplete state of their game was their fault (probably) or not.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
For a publisher it can make sense to throw garbage on the market. No trial version and no reviews at launch time are good indications for that. Just to get a quick buck/euro until everybody realized how bad the product actually is (STEAM definitely needs to introduce refunding). One publisher cancels crappy projects and nobody will ever hear about it, other publishers just put it on the market.

JA:BiA had a trial version and everybody could test the game before spending money (one reason why calling JA:BiA shovelware is fundamentally wrong). And that's why I would always defend JA:BiA despite all trouble with bitComposer.

But for developers (especially small studios), releasing an unfinished bugfest can be a total desaster. It ruins your biography, it ruins your team motivation and you will lose your original intention to make games at all. In many case you will lose your company or job as well.
And most important of all: as developer you invest so much energy, time and passion into a game, seeing all this work going down the toilet can be very frustrating.

I am very sorry for the devs of Citadels, no matter if the incomplete state of their game was their fault (probably) or not.

All very true, and all part of the reason why I'm loathe to place any blame. I can fully understand the motivation of both parties in this case, and unless some new information surfaces, that's going to be my guiding star.

The only thing I take issue with here is the lack of even an attempt at finding agreement. That's because I, as primarily a fan and staff member of this site, am interested in one thing above all concerning this dispute; the release of quality games. Thus my main concern now is why a deal cannot be worked out, and who is blocking conversation. I don't have faith in a new project because frankly, that sounds like a pipedream to me.

But I would like to ask you all these questions and more in a more official capacity, like I said. It's great you want to divulge this information, but most people won't see it buried on page 8 of this thread.
 
Last edited:

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
For a publisher it can make sense to throw garbage on the market. No trial version and no reviews at launch time are good indications for that. Just to get a quick buck/euro until everybody realized how bad the product actually is (STEAM definitely needs to introduce refunding). One publisher cancels crappy projects and nobody will ever hear about it, other publishers just put it on the market.

JA:BiA had a trial version and everybody could test the game before spending money (one reason why calling JA:BiA shovelware is fundamentally wrong). And that's why I would always defend JA:BiA despite all trouble with bitComposer.

But for developers (especially small studios), releasing an unfinished bugfest can be a total desaster. It ruins your biography, it ruins your team motivation and you will lose your original intention to make games at all. In many case you will lose your company or job as well.
And most important of all: as developer you invest so much energy, time and passion into a game, seeing all this work going down the toilet can be very frustrating.

I am very sorry for the devs of Citadels, no matter if the incomplete state of their game was their fault (probably) or not.
I (and most Codexers i believe) am less interested to blame someone (bC or you) than to have the game. For all their faults bC seemed interested to reexamine the contract and continue development for CC.(unless they lied). Is Coreplay interested in continuing the project?
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
For a publisher it can make sense to throw garbage on the market. No trial version and no reviews at launch time are good indications for that. Just to get a quick buck/euro until everybody realized how bad the product actually is (STEAM definitely needs to introduce refunding). One publisher cancels crappy projects and nobody will ever hear about it, other publishers just put it on the market.

JA:BiA had a trial version and everybody could test the game before spending money (one reason why calling JA:BiA shovelware is fundamentally wrong). And that's why I would always defend JA:BiA despite all trouble with bitComposer.

But for developers (especially small studios), releasing an unfinished bugfest can be a total desaster. It ruins your biography, it ruins your team motivation and you will lose your original intention to make games at all. In many case you will lose your company or job as well.
And most important of all: as developer you invest so much energy, time and passion into a game, seeing all this work going down the toilet can be very frustrating.

I am very sorry for the devs of Citadels, no matter if the incomplete state of their game was their fault (probably) or not.

All very true, and all part of the reason why I'm loathe to place any blame. I can fully understand the motivation of both parties in this case, and unless some new information surfaces, that's going to be my guiding star.

The only thing I take issue with here is the lack of even an attempt at finding agreement. That's because I, as primarily a fan and staff member of this site, am interested in one thing above all; the release of quality games. Thus my main concern now is why a deal cannot be worked out, and who is blocking conversation. I don't have faith in a new project because frankly, that sounds like a pipedream to me.

But I would like to ask you all these questions and more in a more official capacity, like I said. It's great you want to divulge this information, but most people won't see it buried on page 8 of this thread.
:bro:
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
Patron
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Messages
14,396
Location
South Africa; My pronouns are: Banal/Shit/Boring
Divinity: Original Sin
Is Coreplay interested in continuing the project?
That is the million dollar question. You have to consider the possibility of an extension to current contracts. From what I have read bC would be interested in something like that, but Coreplay wouldn't. That to me is a breach of good faith on their part and consequently they have zero interest in the game seeing the light of day.
 

fanta

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
509
What I don't understand is how it is apparently legal for the developer, who has a minority funding part for the project, to demand a renegotiation of the contract and failing to get it abandon the project altogether.

(Worse, bC was apparently willing to renegotiate but Coreplay expected a promise of the new contract to be signed on the spot. There of course many unknowns. For example, CP claims the bC stopped payments, bC claims it's because milestones were not delivered and new ones weren't proposed.)

Could someone explain how publisher-developer contracts typically deal with developer abandoning the project? I imagine there being an agreed fine.

I want the game so bad :(
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
For those hoping that Hobgoblin42 will openly discuss the role of the new investor in his company, I think that's very unlikely unfortunately.

Shares in his company are now controlled by an (apparently) assertive investor and lawyer, and he has to somehow maintain a working relationship with them. If there is blame to be laid at their door for this mess, would it be sensible for him to come onto the Codex and provide us with details? Would you, in his position?

Of course, if their actions had been entirely positive for this project then he would openly discuss them so something can be inferred from the fact that only BC is talking about the role of this investor.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,835
It is NOT tolerated. Let me say that again, it is NOT tolerated on official forums anywhere. The number #1 result for "obshitian" is the rpgcodex. There are ZERO results for the term on their official forums. While a search here brings up 5 pages of results.
"Absurdian", the superior put-down, gets two results. Bugsidian gets five. Whyoware gets over 100 at the BSN. :M
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,505
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It is NOT tolerated. Let me say that again, it is NOT tolerated on official forums anywhere. The number #1 result for "obshitian" is the rpgcodex. There are ZERO results for the term on their official forums. While a search here brings up 5 pages of results.
"Absurdian", the superior put-down, gets two results. Bugsidian gets five. Whyoware gets over 100 at the BSN. :M

Those aren't profane.
 

Mother Russia

Andhaira
Andhaira
Dumbfuck Queued
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
3,876
Codex 2013
This is a real tragedy for all involved, for Coreplay, bitComposer and all of us eagerly awaiting the game. :(

I am sure the game can come out if an agreement is reached, but it appears that won't be possible, because from what I can gather that will only happen if Coreplay agrees to reduced royalties (or whatever was stated in the original contract). It appears it is the new partner with his changed contract that is causing most of this trouble. Whether he/she himself changed the contract or someone(s) at Coreplay convinced him, is something we will likely never know.

I understand people will be frustrated, and will say better to have reduced royalities than zero royalties, just so the game can come out. But perhaps Coreplay is not agreeing to sign due to the principal of the thing; they don't want to be walked over by bitComposer (i.e. settle for less royalties) This could make other publishers/investors do the same thing to them.

Ofcourse, I am extrapolating this from my limited information. Who really knows what the whole story is. Perhaps over the years, as @HobGoblin42 retires from the game industry in disgust and starts working on his own remake: Order Chronicles: Messengers of the Caped Templar in an underground vault that he made himself after discovering the upcoming thermonuclear apocalypse and race wars about to engulf the planet, some naive young Codexian will make a thread called "Coreplay Thread" in classic GRPGD and hobgoblin42 will return to post the real history of what actually happened in that thread. Then we shall learn of the horrific things that went on behind the scenes, in the offices and latrines of the Coreplay and bitComposer offices.

See you in 15 years! :salute:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Oh. Pfft, I thought you knew something more interesting. Back to fistharvesting with you.
 

evdk

comrade troglodyte :M
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
11,292
Location
Corona regni Bohemiae
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.

Branm

Learned
Joined
Apr 27, 2013
Messages
472
Location
Ottawa
What I don't understand is how it is apparently legal for the developer, who has a minority funding part for the project, to demand a renegotiation of the contract and failing to get it abandon the project altogether.

(Worse, bC was apparently willing to renegotiate but Coreplay expected a promise of the new contract to be signed on the spot. There of course many unknowns. For example, CP claims the bC stopped payments, bC claims it's because milestones were not delivered and new ones weren't proposed.)

Could someone explain how publisher-developer contracts typically deal with developer abandoning the project? I imagine there being an agreed fine.

This, as far as I'm concerned this is very much like say defaulting on a loan etc..How is this legal? Especially considering they also took money from the state of Baveria?

You cant just renegotiate contracts on a whim...EVEN if the contracts terms were unfavorable to your company....If that is the case then Foreplay shouldnt of signed anything with bC to begin with.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,418
Location
Copenhagen
What I don't understand is how it is apparently legal for the developer, who has a minority funding part for the project, to demand a renegotiation of the contract and failing to get it abandon the project altogether.

(Worse, bC was apparently willing to renegotiate but Coreplay expected a promise of the new contract to be signed on the spot. There of course many unknowns. For example, CP claims the bC stopped payments, bC claims it's because milestones were not delivered and new ones weren't proposed.)

Could someone explain how publisher-developer contracts typically deal with developer abandoning the project? I imagine there being an agreed fine.

This, as far as I'm concerned this is very much like say defaulting on a loan etc..How is this legal? Especially considering they also took money from the state of Baveria?

You cant just renegotiate contracts on a whim...EVEN if the contracts terms were unfavorable to your company....If that is the case then Foreplay shouldnt of signed anything with bC to begin with.

You can't force someone to work for you, only that they honor the agreement, which means bC could demand Coreplay repay everything they invested in Chaos Chronicles. If bC went to court and won, forcing Coreplay to pay damages, Coreplay would probably go insolvent. I doubt anyone wants that (then one gets anything - neither bC or Coreplay). bC wants a return on their investment. What Coreplay want is anyone's guess.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
Maybe they found a legal loophole that allows them to "negotiate" for a couple of years before repayment is due.
 
In My Safe Space
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
21,899
Codex 2012
I certainly agree that Citadels is pretty damning (I don't care if you want a return on your investment, you don't put out broken unfinished shit, you gambled and you lost), and that's why we asked about it. But JA:BiA wasn't unfinished or even really that shitty by some objective definition. It was certainly something the Codex and other people who hoped to see a real Jagged Alliance wouldn't like, but it was a pretty cool Commandos-like if looked at in a vacuum.
The whole point of remakes is to make an improved version of a game, not "it won't be as good as the original because we don't have skills to make it".
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
The point of remakes is to gouge old school customers and naive newcomers on shovelware.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom