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Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Chaos Chronicles

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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There's a ton of stuff you _could_ do with generic fantasy, the problem is it's seldom ever done.
Is the path that RPGs evolved, instead of Arcanum-like design, with focus on interesting game worlds, they followed the biowarian path of romanceable companion NPCs... they turn enemies into filler combat and focus their effort on creating Morigans, Liaras and Mirandas.

They don't understand that great encounters like Khangaxx are more memorable than any BG2 NPC sidequest or romance... probably because biotards can't fap to a demi-lich, the n00bs.
 

Stinger

Arcane
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Well all of that certainly sounds amazing, I'd never heard about this project before so thanks for the interview Codex :salute:

And for the devs: :takemymoney:
 
Joined
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Wow, The Codex is really busy with providing us content to read nowadays. I like. :]

As for the game, it seems almost too good to be true. I mean, seriously. If they deliver on everything they promise, this could be one of the greatest CRPGs of all time. IF.


Bit rough to hold an indie to everything they promise. Molyneux should have known by Fable not to bullshit to the nth degree, but some unintended cuts are always going to happen (or maybe they get lucky and get time to add something in they hadn't planned - either way, there's a degree of leeway required).

That increases greatly with an indie, simply because they don't have tight management on board controlling timetables, nor experience of how much will get done over long time periods. I'm no programmer, but I'm just thinking of other jobs I've done. In both law and academia it took years to be able to say with reliability how much will get done in x amount of time (the first year of doing criminal cases it's a fucking nightmare trying to give a good answer when the judge is asking 'how long do you need?', and I'd say it takes pretty much the full length of your PhD to be able to get to the stage where you can say 'I can produce x papers in x months'). I can't imagine game design is any easier than that - in fact, given that it's group work it's going to be much harder.

With each of these kickstarters, I'm taking 2/3 of promised features as a 'best case scenario'. And even in that event, this one's looking neat.
 

mote

Novice
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
33
Has Coreplay considered doing a very downbeat/depressing high/dark-fantasy setting, nothing funny or folk-ish, just serious business death and suffering?

I'm rather reminded of Disciples 2, which possibly has the most simplistic (mechanics wise) combat of any turn-based strategy, yet somehow the game manages to save itself and even be enjoyable due to amazing art-direction and dark setting. The combat is about as complex as watching paint dry, yet when you see the portraits and hear that music, you can't help but feel immersed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A66pQIkpEOs

Just saying, game design shouldn't be neglected in favor of mechanics, both come together to make a good roleplaying experience.
 
Joined
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Messages
6,207
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The island of misfit mascots
There's a ton of stuff you _could_ do with generic fantasy, the problem is it's seldom ever done.
Is the path that RPGs evolved, instead of Arcanum-like design, with focus on interesting game worlds, they followed the biowarian path of romanceable companion NPCs... they turn enemies into filler combat and focus their effort on creating Morigans, Liaras and Mirandas.

They don't understand that great encounters like Khangaxx are more memorable than any BG2 NPC sidequest or romance... probably because biotards can't fap to a demi-lich, the n00bs.

One thing I think Bioware forgot with all that focus on NPC party dialogue and romanceable companions, is that they've stripped out all the context from BG2 that gave it potential - and I don't mean the romance dialogue, that was always embarassingly bad. The romance bits were minor and led to some extra quest content, but they also occurred in the older context of having NPCs having agendas, refusing to team with NPCs they don't get on with and refusing to do quests that they're strongly against. I'm not saying that's the best way of doing things, BUT if you ARE going to do the 'interactive NPC' thing, having a couple of embarassing 'romance' scenes of sub-Mills-and-Boon quality doesn't cut it.

You know, despite not even being a party based game, NPC party interactions is one thing that Alpha Protocol got right. Some folks won't work together. Piss off some folks badly enough and they'll send their mooks after you and they'll end up getting into a fight with the security of the other force you're up against. Team up with a crazy-chaotic-neutral-type guy and don't be surprised when his 'subtle' distraction turns out to be a shotgun shooting spree in the middle of a fucking stealth mission:). Mondblut won't care for it still, but again, if you ARE going to do that stuff, that's they way - give the characters logical conflicts (Jagged Alliance 2 and that Russian-based game on the Silent Storm engine come to mind as well), let the player know their personality, choose occasional times for them to act contrary to player instructions (in a wasteland-style game, that should be a key difference between the player party and NPCs that join them), and force the player to consider how the party will get on and make that a strategic/tactical consideration. Either drop the party interaction bullshit altogether, or force the player to think about whether a team will actually work together (i.e. emphasising the 'strategic leader' gameplay, rather than the 'I romanced Felicia Hardy' cutscene non-gameplay).
 
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nothing funny or folk-ish

yes, 'cause what we need these days is more grimdark
Well the game is called Chaos Chronicles and it's about a party traveling into a shadowy land that has conquered by evil long ago, yes?

Well the developers are going in a darker more sinister direction of D&D, but how dark, we'll have to see. Personally I'm satisfied if I get to explore whole abandoned continent which was ravaged by evil a long time ago. Since they are going with D&D I don't think an extremely "grimdark" setting like in Disciples would work well. This should be an interesting twist enough. And judging by screenshots seems it will be dark enough, it reminds me a bit of Path of Exile, and that game certainly isn't merry. The have hit the sweet spot with me with atmosphere and with this game, can't wait for it. I can't even remember when I last played something new in a fantasy setting.
 
Joined
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Has Coreplay considered doing a very downbeat/depressing high/dark-fantasy setting, nothing funny or folk-ish, just serious business death and suffering?

I'm rather reminded of Disciples 2, which possibly has the most simplistic (mechanics wise) combat of any turn-based strategy, yet somehow the game manages to save itself and even be enjoyable due to amazing art-direction and dark setting. The combat is about as complex as watching paint dry, yet when you see the portraits and hear that music, you can't help but feel immersed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A66pQIkpEOs

Just saying, game design shouldn't be neglected in favor of mechanics, both come together to make a good roleplaying experience.

Dark fantasy is its own genre, underserviced in games, but hard to combine with high fantasy just because if magic is common, you wonder why they don't just magically solve their health and food problems, etc. In dark fantasy, magic comes with either a physical or moral price, and is hence primarily restricted to the villains, with heroes who are at a disadvantage in that they can only push their powers so far without seriously harming themselves etc. You could certainly build mechanics to represent that - it isn't that different to the current idea of mana etc - could be something as simple as spells using up hitpoints, along with a few small changes like 'heal' being a health transfer from one character to another (yes, I watched Carnivale). Gives a reason why the heroes have to focus on just solving one problem, rather than raising the issue of why they don't solve the entire setting's problems (can't cure famine because it would just swap which farms are failing, can't cure plagues because taking the illness from one guy just gives it to someone else).

Chaotic parties would use powers in a vampiric sense (so heal would be a power drain from the enemies), whereas 'good' parties would either need to limit themselves to transferring health between the characters or taking it from nearby animals AND would have access to the vampiric heal in return for Geneforge-style corruption.

Actually, if you haven't played the Geneforge series, and you're interested in dark fantasy settings, then play it. It doesn't start dark - early games are basically high fantasy except with tech explanations for the 'magic'. The theme of the series is tech proliferation - you have a well-deserved rebellion and in early games it's easy to think 'surely the rebels are just the good guys and that's it'. But even though the games aren't strictly linked (except in timeline), the shapers (who start off controlling all the magic/tech) are correct in their initial worries: by the last game where every subfaction has shaping tech the world's basically collapsing.

More the point, they have a very neat 'corruption' mechanic, though one that will seriously annoy those who hate hidden stats. It's done better in later Geneforge games (early ones are basically 'use x cannisters and you go chaotic and certain endings are changed (as you're now an abomination in the eyes of some factions)' (cannisters give you abilities for free in a game where exp and abilities are rare, and often faction-specific if you don't use cannisters). Later on, you might use a few cannisters without changing much at all. Use a few more and you'll start getting different descriptions (a friendly farmer might be described as a threat) as your character starts getting bouts of paranoia. Occasionally it will force you into combat. Use more, and that happens more and more.

That would be a great mechanic for a 'dark fantasy' setting - allow the party to use 'magic with a physical cost' (health transfers instead of heals, fireball in return for appropriate ingredients, etc) OR the same 'magic with no cost' that the more powerful villains can spam, except that each time you use it is has the same effect as the cannisters in Geneforge, changing the descriptions so they get more paranoid and lead to unnecessary killings, making it occasionally seem like everyone is hostile etc.
 

mote

Novice
Joined
Sep 5, 2012
Messages
33
Thanks for the recommendation, I must confess I never played any of the Spiderweb games despite knowing about them, I think I played one of the Exile games years ago and remember liking how you could die of hunger, so you had to be in an inn (or was it just beyond city gates?) if you had no food supplies.

But yeah I agree with most of what you said regarding dark fantasy and magic, but there's always the option of simply making magical ability (like 'mana') an inherited trait, so it runs in your blood. That would justify a setting where wizards were a form of aristocracy, they could heal commoners with diseases (but with physical cost, they grow older quicker the more magic they use, because it's literally their blood/life), so they charge lots of gold/money, making the benefits of magic out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Which could add moral ambiguity.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
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Jersey for now
Well, if they can follow thru with all they promise, fucking god bless them.
I hope with all this Kickstarter BS we can actually start seeing the classic RPG styles come back (turn based combat, actual RPG elements, etc).
 

Sitra Achara

Arcane
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
1,860
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Wow, The Codex is really busy with providing us content to read nowadays. I like. :]

As for the game, it seems almost too good to be true. I mean, seriously. If they deliver on everything they promise, this could be one of the greatest CRPGs of all time. IF.


Bit rough to hold an indie to everything they promise. Molyneux should have known by Fable not to bullshit to the nth degree, but some unintended cuts are always going to happen (or maybe they get lucky and get time to add something in they hadn't planned - either way, there's a degree of leeway required).

That increases greatly with an indie, simply because they don't have tight management on board controlling timetables, nor experience of how much will get done over long time periods. I'm no programmer, but I'm just thinking of other jobs I've done. In both law and academia it took years to be able to say with reliability how much will get done in x amount of time (the first year of doing criminal cases it's a fucking nightmare trying to give a good answer when the judge is asking 'how long do you need?', and I'd say it takes pretty much the full length of your PhD to be able to get to the stage where you can say 'I can produce x papers in x months'). I can't imagine game design is any easier than that - in fact, given that it's group work it's going to be much harder.

With each of these kickstarters, I'm taking 2/3 of promised features as a 'best case scenario'. And even in that event, this one's looking neat.

No one ever gets everything right the first time. I hope they recognize that and focus on core features and polish for the first release, in order to secure enough funding for expansions / sequels.

'course, even if that happens, after 10 years or so they'll all go Vogel on us.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Azrael the cat , true, NPCS have no agendas and simply blend with the main character. Bioware abandoned any challenge or subletly in favour of just simple exposition. BG2 made hard for you to keep NPCs like Korgan and Keldorn at the same time, you had to be neutral or one of them would leave. Meanwhile, in Mass Effect 2 you can use Legion and Tali, two sworn enemies, and all that comes to is one cutscene; there is not even party banther anymore, because everything they say HAS to be a event, with cutscenes and shit...

Edwin hitting on Virconnia was like 2 floating text lines that he said while walking, anything like that in ME or DA would be either a long, awkward cutscene, or would never make into the game, because they trully believe that they have to explain & show everything. If they have a NPC talking about X, the player must be able to go there, resolve the problem and get rewards. If BG2 was released today, biotards would cry for Bioware to make a DLC where you heal Aerie's wings, turn Lilarcor back to human, etc.. not a single issue can remain, for the NPCs have no agenda, they live to serve you and you must make their lives perfect.
 

kaizoku

Arcane
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
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http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ntasy-rpg-announced.75131/page-2#post-2241031
5 or 6 (+ 1 NPC slot)

You can create your own character(s) from the scratch with dices and you can recruit existing characters in the guildhall. Furthermore you will meet character who could probably join your party. Characters of the last category will have their own agenda and ... secrets.

wish I could have more NPCs in the party. 3 PCs and 3 NPCs would be sweet.


http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ntasy-rpg-announced.75131/page-3#post-2241039
At this time, I can share following details about the character system:

Classes: Fighter, Warlord, Paladin, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger, Warlock
Attributes: Strength (STR), Dexterity (DEX), Intelligence(INT), Wisdom (WIS), Constitution (CON), Charisma(CHA)
 

kaizoku

Arcane
Joined
Feb 18, 2006
Messages
4,129
they could heal commoners with diseases (but with physical cost, they grow older quicker the more magic they use, because it's literally their blood/life), so they charge lots of gold/money, making the benefits of magic out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Which could add moral ambiguity.
that shit is so cash, literally

now add the aging process of Darklands and you have an awesome system
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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A great use of NPC agenda I recalled is Vigil in Arcanum... he is bent about you visiting his cult and whatever, and usually I'm not interested in that, so we clash so badly that on most playthroughs end up killing him... also, he is a jerk that always try to "handle things for me", I answer rudely and he gets pissed. Good times. :lol:
 
Joined
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Messages
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A great use of NPC agenda I recalled is Vigil in Arcanum... he is bent about you visiting his cult and whatever, and usually I'm not interested in that, so we clash so badly that on most playthroughs end up killing him... also, he is a jerk that always try to "handle things for me", I answer rudely and he gets pissed. Good times. :lol:

No, Virgil is a nice dude. :(
 

LeStryfe79

President Spartacus
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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Looks inclined enough. I like the use of classic races in this case since they want to harken back to bygone days. I'm not quite sure why people would even want an original setting in this case. Hopefully, they can put a different spin on some good old fashioned D&D.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,624
BG1 actually did some interesting things that could have been quite could if they improved upon them (instead of dropping them in BG2). There were a lot of encounters in the wilderness that didn't have a particular connection with anything - other travelers saying hello or bringing you news, the hellhound, archeological excavations, etc. The problem was that these weren't terribly interesting most of the time, and they got drowned out by the fact that you spent the majority of your time outdoors committing genocide against goblins and kobolds. Still, if it had been fleshed out more it would have given a good feeling of a living world, instead of the quest hub feeling of BG2 (though I thought Athkatla was done nicely).

Another thing BG1 touched upon was moral ambiguity. Things like the druids conflict with that merchant, the lumberjacks that don't realize they're cutting down a nymph's tree, and an artist that stole jewels for his vision. Unfortunately, instead of forcing the player to make a tough choice, the game ends up making one group hostile to you so that you don't have to make a choice. It's like they wanted to put in some moral ambiguity, but then got nervous that the player couldn't "win" the situation, so they decided to have it auto-resolve.
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
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Project: Eternity
Another thing BG1 touched upon was moral ambiguity. Things like the druids conflict with that merchant, the lumberjacks that don't realize they're cutting down a nymph's tree, and an artist that stole jewels for his vision. Unfortunately, instead of forcing the player to make a tough choice, the game ends up making one group hostile to you so that you don't have to make a choice. It's like they wanted to put in some moral ambiguity, but then got nervous that the player couldn't "win" the situation, so they decided to have it auto-resolve.
In fact you could pick a side in the druids versus hunter scene. It led of course to killing the other side. However, there were also (mild) consequences, if you decided to go along with treehuggers. In Baldur's Gate (the city), a brother or maybe a friend - I haven't played BG for quite a long time - appeared, accused you of murder and promptly attacked, leaving a powerful crossbow on his body.
 

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