Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone at Digital Dragons 2016

[Infinitron]

ZagorTeNej These are two different things. In the section that I quoted, he's talking about what a game's story is about and the player character's role in it, not about how verbose the writing is. You can make a story that's really about the world and not the player without having poorly paced loredumps.

Wiki style dialogue is verbose as a rule but not every verbose dialogue can be considered wiki style. My point is that you can indirectly tell player about the world even if the whole experience is personal/player focused.

Say you come up with a faction for your game and you write 10 pages about its history, rules traditions etc. but instead of having a doorman dump all that text on the player you instead use that written material only as guidelines to said faction behaviour in the game when the player interacts with it (and as a consequence the player gets the idea of what said faction is all about).

Yes, I understand that, but again, it doesn't mean that you'll end up with an Avellonian "very selfishly focuses on the player" storyline.

I'm not talking about this in terms of "you wrote ten pages of lore, you gotta put them all in the game". I'm talking about the fact that if you've invested X amount of time, energy, budget into creating a world, then that inevitably distracts you, diverts mental resources away from the task of carving out a personal, player-centric narrative out of that world. Because that's what you have after N months of preproduction, it's what's on your mind. The story you're writing will probably skew in a "world-centric", not player-centric direction because that's the work that you've done.

 

[Paul_cz]

You know, once Avellone gets the family stuff sorted, it would be kinda hilariously awesome if he joined Bethesda and did lead writing/design on next Fallout.

Of course I do not think their ego would ever allow this hire, but..yeah, would suure be nice to get well written Fallout again.

 

[JustMyOnion]

And you know what, players aren't dumb.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I think this is something that set Chris at odds with the modern trend in western RPGs in general and at Obsidian in particular, to make games about "factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding".

Which is precisely why MCA is one of the few people in this business who aren't fucking hacks.

Uh huh. But on the other hand, those things are the key to lots of the C&C and detail that the Codex likes.

Wut? Probably true for newfags who started playing "RPGs" with Kotor and think PoE is the ultimate masterpiece in RPGness.

Amusing how you keep trying to defend Obsidian and everything they do. Will you stop when all the Black Isle/Troika people are out of there or is this a fetish about the company that you have? Though I suppose Sawyer will die there so you'll always have someone to worsphip for being a shining example of mediocrity.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Roguey]

I suspect the "good thing overall" is how they got to develop their own tools, but it also sounds like he's glad it was cancelled. Don't know why exactly he said "take that opinion with me to my grave". It suggests to me that it was a controversial opinion or something like that, but I don't know.

Aliens's cancellation freed up the resources for them to take on New Vegas as a project. I agree, things worked out for the best.

 

[markec]

Really good review, it breaks my heart every time I read about Van Buren since it reminds me how great the game could have been.

 

[Lurker King]

I do have a few animes that I like, I like Samurai Champloo. I also liked Cowboy Bebop. I really liked a series called Trigun. I like Attack on Titan, even through I didn't like it at first. But mostly the influence from Japanese RPGs came from how they did their companion design. What I always liked about JRPGs is I felt like they always gave you enough time to get to know the companion character and try them out before moving on to the next guy. Because some of the trap that Western RPGs fall into is they'll introduce a few characters at the beginning that you get really attached to, but then when you meet a new character you don't want to switch out because you're comfortable with the old guy. Japanese RPGs stage it so everybody gets equal screen time at the beginning, and it's staggered out. And then at the end, they let you choose, but you've been introduced to all the characters sort of at once, in stages, and I think that works a lot better.

Sounds like a made up excuse to justify his interest in Japanese stuff. Most Japanese RPGs and animes have this problem. See Chrono Trigger, FFVII, etc. Also, Samurai Champloo and Trigun? Seriously? Shitty taste reputation cemented.

MCA: If I were to work on a dream project, I probably couldn't say too much about it, but it would probably have to wait for a little while until family stuff settles down, but um... it would probably not involve a lot of text. [laughs] It would probably be a story more conveyed through visuals.

Like 99% of the popamole games out there? Modern gaming sensibilities.

JMR: What concept would you most like to explore in a future project? What concept do you think is overused in RPGs?

MCA: The idea of a chosen one. “Oh, I'm special”, especially when there's no real reason behind it, and... that's a problem. Another motif is, for some reasons you're the only one doing things. The rest of the world holds still while you take your time, I think that's kind of garbage.

MCA: I think a lot of computer games stories don't focus on the player enough. I think some writer gets it into their head that they want to tell a story about the world that isn't really involved with the player.

So the problem is that most cRPGs have “the chosen one” narrative, but cRPG writing is not highly regarded because they don't focus on the player enough. ZERO COHERENCE! The actual problem is that most developers are shitty writers and most players don’t give a damn about good writing. Besides, the fact that some of the few good writers start promoting the idea that a story should be more conveyed through visuals, instead of text, doesn’t help.

MCA: I feel there's a lot of games that introduce very interesting characters right from the outset, like in New Vegas, like you get Sunny Smiles and her dog.

That is a bad example. Sunny Smiles is a cardboard character.

MCA: I guess the way I would interpret it is... it's always worthwhile to be pleasant and share respect to everybody, until the moment that you realize that they don't treat you the same way. And when you suddenly realize that some people are poison, those are the people... you're not mean to them, but you just cut them out of your life.

Sour grapes regarding Obsidian developers.

MCA: The only compromises that immediately jump to mind as being the worst is when QA is compromised. And the willingness to fix whatever QA finds as compromise, that's the first problem. Because at that point it's pretty clear that noone really cares about the end product, they just want it out. And that's a little thing I call “quality when convenient”, and the problem is there's a certain period in about every project where everybody's like, “Oh, quality! We're gonna make this the best thing ever. It's gonna be like so innovative, it's gonna be great!” And then the moment there's any hardship, everyone gives up. And they're like, “Oh god! Get it out the door. I don't care how many bugs there are.”

More sour grapes. So Obsidian blamed publishers for releasing buggy games, but they were buggy because they were lazy and had shitty work ethics. Who would have thought? Let’s add this qualification to Obsidian’s CV.

JMR: What's your favorite Obsidian game, and why?

MCA: [thinks for quite a while] I don't think I have one.

Sour grapes, resentment, the works.

MCA: So... I don't have a lot of time to play roleplaying games, unfortunately. (…) when I get done with that, if I'm lucky I have fifteen to twenty minutes to play Darkest Dungeon before I go to bed.

Shitty taste reputation consolidated beyond doubt.

I rarely meet a mean game developer or a mean game player.

He should visit the codex more.

That is because most posters here praise everything he says even he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Apparently, being the writer of PS:T turns you into an infallible god or undisputed authority for every subject. Don’t get me wrong, I have the deepest respect for Avellone contributions, but this interview only shows that popular developers don’t have time to analyze cRPGs properly or even understand what’s happening. Also, do not expect someone who is a certified bad player to appreciate challenging games or understand how to make a challenging game.

 

[l3loodAngel]

...Sour grapes, resentment, the works...

Pretty much what an imbecile with a below average IQ would say. You think too highly of yourself.

 

[Goral]

Jedi Master Radek
Superb interview Radek . Thank you.

BTW, once you asked him all those questions did you immediately go your separate ways or is there the "off the record" continuation? Or some questions not necessarily about RPGs (how does he like the most beautiful country in the world or most tasty cuisine in the world or most beautiful women in the world)...

 

[Lurker King]

You think too much for yourself.

Fixed.

 

[hivemind]

Like 99% of the popamole games out there?

no.

 

[80Maxwell08]

I think this is something that set Chris at odds with the modern trend in western RPGs in general and at Obsidian in particular, to make games about "factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding".

Which is precisely why MCA is one of the few people in this business who aren't fucking hacks.

Uh huh. But on the other hand, those things are the key to lots of the C&C and detail that the Codex likes.

I think if you showed this sentence to your average Codexer:

Ideally a computer game story very selfishly focuses on the player

without telling him who said it, he might guess it was somebody at BioWare who said that. And if you said you were making a game where "the world has a story of its own, and the player just gets injected into it", I think a lot of Codexers would say that sounds pretty cool. Realistic, not a wish fulfillment fantasy, etc.

I remember on the witcher forums when his quotes about ego stroking the player came up. Quite a few people were shocked at him saying that because it reminded them of Bioware. My response to it was basically that it shows the difference in talent between Avellone and the average Bioware writer.

 

[Roguey]

Avellone's had this opinion his entire career.

EGO MASTURBATION

We gots Gold, Glory, Power and Hero Worship. Why save a world you know nothing about and have absolutely no attachment to? Fuck that. We know what you really want to do – you want to run rampant in a world where you are a god. You want the power to change your environment, slaughter all who stand against you, and be a hero worshipped by the masses – everything you don‟t get pushing paper or suffering through school 40 hours a week. As such, Last Rites concentrates on every player‟s power fantasy and exploits selfish motivations. You and your destiny are the focus the game. You‟re not out to save the world, only yourself – and if the world gets saved in the process, then fine, but it ain‟t your problem. Maybe Planescape doesn‟t revolve around the character – but it would if you wanted it to, capiche?

yes, whatever you say, MASTER

People recognize the character and react to him. The player can build a “rep.” People will cower at the feet of a fearsome basher or else welcome (or try and take advantage) of a charitable character. They will recognize him when they have spoken before and will remember how the player treated them the last time he spoke to them. Characters in the game will learn to fear and respect the character. They will grovel and pander to his desires, women will adore the character and lavish praise upon him. Sure, you may be a fat dateless loser in real life, but in Last Rites, you get the women and respect you‟ve always craved. Rumors travel fast in Sigil, and the player‟s actions (however they are interpreted) will herald him, and people will react appropriately.

people you meet ain‟t from mcdonald‟s

People in our game have personalities – and sometimes, more than one personality. The people you meet aren‟t walking, talking, cookie-cutter cardboard clichés that you‟ve seen a thousand times before, and they have wants just like you. Opponents and allies don‟t break down into those two simple labels, and they may even switch back and forth throughout the game in response to your actions. You will have to deal with adversaries with multiple personalities, schizophrenia, or who have been possessed. It may be in the pit fiend‟s best interests to provide you with gifts or accurate information in order to harm one of his enemies in the Blood War. The friendly tavern barmaid with the flaming hair and strong sword arm who percolates your hormones may be a refugee from the pits of the Abyss taken mortal form. Your friends may be far more than they seem – they may change their personality depending on their allegiances and your actions. One of your allies won‟t take kindly you to looting bodies of the dead. Others won‟t stick with you except out of greed. Some smiling faces conceal fangs waiting for a combat when your back is against the wall to turn on you.

On the other hand, the player can build friendships and relationships. He can build trust with skeptics, help out those in need, or romance those he meets. We will work hard to try and include positive relationships within the game – relationships that the player may not have in real life or may desire from watching movies. The player can have buddies that will lay down their life for the character, Betsies and Veronicas/Gingers and Mary Anns fighting over his affections, mentors, loyal servants, and so on. They will thank the player for his help or fawn for his attention, giving the player additional ego-stroking.

 

[Jedi Exile]

The part about the would-be aliens game at the end made me quite sad. It would have been a great game then? Shit, so many abortions done with that franchise and when we get the chance for a solid sci-fi rpg it aborts.

To hell with you obsidian, to hell with you.

If you had seen that video they released, you would have probably changed your mind. Game looked like shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdVedBa0-mk

it made me sad that MCA feels that he wasted years in Obsidian (probably true, though)

It's sad, but true. MCA didn't achieve anything on level with Torment while working there. He didn't create anything really new.

 

[hello friend]

The actual problem is that most developers are shitty writers and most players don’t give a damn about good writing. Besides, the fact that some of the few good writers start promoting the idea that a story should be more conveyed through visuals, instead of text, doesn’t help.

You're right about most all most devs being shitty writers. Precisely because of this a decreased focus on text is a good thing. Visuals in a game should communicate the setting and make the world more coherent. Small touches can make a big difference. This is obv more about art direction than graphical fidelity, though. This is only bad if it stops there. Because storytelling through gameplay mechanics is where it's at.

 

[JustMyOnion]

I'd really like him to work with Bethesda on the next Fallout, if only just for the "culture shock" of going from a 3 million audience to a 30 million one. At the very least he'd get some interesting perspectives out of that.
Although ironically, even though Bethesda could actually afford all his dreams of "visual storytelling", he'd still be stuck with Gamebryo.

 

[JustMyOnion]

Sounds like a made up excuse to justify his interest in Japanese stuff. Most Japanese RPGs and animes have this problem. See Chrono Trigger, FFVII, etc.

From my experience with japanese games, the description of "less world building, more character building" was spot on, however none of the character building was actually good.

 

[Lurker King]

You're right about most all most devs being shitty writers. Precisely because of this a decreased focus on text is a good thing. Visuals in a game should communicate the setting and make the world more coherent. Small touches can make a big difference. This is obv more about art direction than graphical fidelity, though. This is only bad if it stops there. Because storytelling through gameplay mechanics is where it's at.

Proposing less writing with more interactive gameplay as a solution for bad writing sounds like a irrationalist excuse for people who don’t care about writing at all, and want to get rid of the whole thing in cRPGs. The only way to improve writing in cRPGs is criticizing and making negative reviews about games with bad writing. If you say that a cRPG is awesome without giving a dam about its shitty writing, your are supporting stupidity and the teenage syndrome in the medium. The inverse is also true. If you support a game solely because it has good writing or C&C, but doesn’t give a dam about the combat system or the gameplay elements, you are supporting popamolism and bad design. Both storyfags and gameplayfags are wrong.

From my experience with japanese games, the description of "less world building, more character building" was spot on, however none of the character building was actually good.

My point is that most Japanese games make you connected to a few characters on the first hours, but offer new ones later on. This is not a exclusivity of western cRPGs. Avellone is wrong.

 

[Flou]

Well, nobody could say. While its clear Chris had a lot of frustrations it's not exactly an uncommon situation he finds himself in, for creative types especially.
Nor is it a guarantee it will go swimmingly from now on. (Or that the codex will be all that enarmored with potential creations)

At all.

That said a change of pace was certainly in order. Hopefully it goes well for him and he actually gets the chance to go through with another game.

(In some ways it reminds me of how frustrated the Troika came off Interplay and finally, well Troika.)

And there's always two sides to the story. We've only heard Chris's side of the story so far and even that has been sorta hints and little nudges here and there.
Maybe in 10 years both sides will tell exactly what happened...

 

[hello friend]

You're right about most all most devs being shitty writers. Precisely because of this a decreased focus on text is a good thing. Visuals in a game should communicate the setting and make the world more coherent. Small touches can make a big difference. This is obv more about art direction than graphical fidelity, though. This is only bad if it stops there. Because storytelling through gameplay mechanics is where it's at.

Proposing less writing with more interactive gameplay as a solution for bad writing sounds like a irrationalist excuse for people who don’t care about writing at all, and want to get rid of the whole thing in cRPGs. The only way to improve writing in cRPGs is criticizing and making negative reviews about games with bad writing. If you say that a cRPG is awesome without giving a dam about its shitty writing, your are supporting stupidity and the teenage syndrome in the medium. The inverse is also true. If you support a game solely because it has good writing or C&C, but doesn’t give a dam about the combat system or the gameplay elements, you are supporting popamolism and bad design. Both storyfags and gameplayfags are wrong.

Good writers don't end up writing for games. For that to change would require a sea change in the industry. I could see it happening some if more powerful + easy to use tools were created, making it more viable for a game to be written according to one writer's vision. And some other changes as well. But big games are too costly to take too many risks or be dictated by a creative, too big for one person to write a large enough portion of it for it to be written in his "voice" - unless you want a lot of trash filler dialogue/lore/etc. And smaller studios might have trouble being able to afford letting a decent writer run free. The thing about starving artists is... they starve. If you want to attract seasoned, genuinely good writers they're going to have to be able to practice their craft with some creative freedom and get paid doing it. A book is a lot cheaper to make than a game, less risk for the publisher, meaning failure isn't catastophic - just unfortunate. Also you only need a handful of people to be competent: Author, editor + a few others. The smaller the chain, the easier to avoid weak links. Honestly, games development is a pretty bad environment for this stuff. There may be a unicorn genius dude out there who's willing to work for peanuts with little creative control over the product with a mastery of narrative and a strong understanding of writing in an interactive context. But I doubt it. The people writing for games now are second rate, frequently manchildren as well.

And you know, I'd rather just skip the whole thing. When I was a teenager I could read all that shit and exhaust those dialogue trees and read those loredumps, but I really don't have the patience anymore. I've got better things to do. Like whine on the Codex.

 

[RK47]

But don't you want to listen to the dialogue and get EXP?

 

[Kev Inkline]

You know, these interviews are a rare island of tranquil solitude in the sea of hate that is Codex.

Wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Bubbles]

You know, these interviews are a rare island of tranquil solitude in the sea of hate that is Codex.

Wouldn't have it any other way.

Just wait until we interview Josh.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Wow, that was a really long interview. Good job Jedi Master Radek and Chris Avellone !