Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone at Digital Dragons 2016

[Mustawd]

*waters the plant*

RTwP sucks, lah.

 

[Shin]

both systems have their pros and cons, but RTwP has more cons than TB. Doesn't automatically make it worse though I guess... depending on which pros/cons you value most. it's like dogs and cats... sure dogs can guard your house better and cats just look out of the window, but a dog needs your help to shit twice a day. TB is exactly that, it usually offers more ... complex, useful systems underneath but fighting thrashmobs in TB can be a hassle (so it is pretty much dependent on animation speed and encounter design). RTwP games are more like cats in the sense that you can often just let them do their own thing... and they often shit in places you don't even know about. But like with cats, some people will be scratching their heads over how not micromanaging every encounter might not be fun.

 

[Stinger]

So the problem is clearly with trash mobs and trash encounter design.

Just cause it goes by faster in RTWP doesn't mean it's suddenly ok to do it.

 

[animlboogy]

PoE

Really? I greatly enjoyed Pillars of Eternity. I will have to inspect it more upon replay.

Even if this is true about PoE, many people consider it a modern classic, myself included. So even if this is true, it didn't make too much of an impact on the overall quality or experience the game offered.

If you didn't notice it in that game, it's clearly not the type of issue you're too closely attuned to. Most of the dialogue in that game is expository.

You brought up Vogel's stuff, and he's a pretty big offender as well. Characters are rarely doing things, or talking about very immediate things. They're usually describing some motivation, or faction, or long-term goal. The Geneforge series are among my favorite games of all time, despite this issue, so it's not like it can't be done decently. It's just a stilted approach to storytelling, like you're reading articles about the characters and the world around you rather than engaging in conversations.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

If you didn't notice it in that game, it's clearly not the type of issue you're too closely attuned to. Most of the dialogue in that game is expository.

You brought up Vogel's stuff, and he's a pretty big offender as well. Characters are rarely doing things, or talking about very immediate things. They're usually describing some motivation, or faction, or long-term goal. The Geneforge series are among my favorite games of all time, despite this issue, so it's not like it can't be done decently. It's just a stilted approach to storytelling, like you're reading articles about the characters and the world around you rather than engaging in conversations.

Oh, I'm closely attuned to it in the sense that I actually *like* a lot of text, lore and story exposition. That's probably why I didn't find it a problem in PoE.

I don't necessarily agree that "seeing something" visually is always better than a good, solid text exposition. Jeff's games are a great example of that. Not much to see graphically, although there are little visual touches. The "meat" of the game is the text exposition, which greatly adds to the atmosphere, immersiveness and reality of the game. I really love that.

It's almost like seeing a movie vs. reading a book. One isn't necessarily better than the other, it just comes down to personal preference.

When it comes to RPGs, I don't mind the visual-heavy approach, but I always like a good text exposition that requires more use of the imagination - something that it seems many gamers today lack, since the visuals have gotten so good that imagination isn't really needed much anymore, it seems.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

It's also a similar preference thing to whether you like text in a game, or voice acting.

I don't think voice acting is necessarily the best.

Again, I'm a dusty old relic who remembers when not every RPG had voice acting (looking at you, Morrowind!) and really getting deeply engrossed in the narrative stuff regardless.

Text in many ways allow you to use your imagination in a strong way, as well as consume the content at your own speed of thought and reading.

Just 2 different worlds, in my opinion.

 

[animlboogy]

If you didn't notice it in that game, it's clearly not the type of issue you're too closely attuned to. Most of the dialogue in that game is expository.

You brought up Vogel's stuff, and he's a pretty big offender as well. Characters are rarely doing things, or talking about very immediate things. They're usually describing some motivation, or faction, or long-term goal. The Geneforge series are among my favorite games of all time, despite this issue, so it's not like it can't be done decently. It's just a stilted approach to storytelling, like you're reading articles about the characters and the world around you rather than engaging in conversations.

Oh, I'm closely attuned to it in the sense that I actually *like* a lot of text, lore and story exposition. That's probably why I didn't find it a problem in PoE.

I don't necessarily agree that "seeing something" visually is always better than a good, solid text exposition. Jeff's games are a great example of that. Not much to see graphically, although there are little visual touches. The "meat" of the game is the text exposition, which greatly adds to the atmosphere, immersiveness and reality of the game. I really love that.

It's almost like seeing a movie vs. reading a book. One isn't necessarily better than the other, it just comes down to personal preference.

When it comes to RPGs, I don't mind the visual-heavy approach, but I always like a good text exposition that requires more use of the imagination - something that it seems many gamers today lack, since the visuals have gotten so good that imagination isn't really needed much anymore, it seems.

I'm not talking about text versus visuals, though. I'm talking about how in PoE, every time you talk to a companion they tell you their life's story, and all these cool and interesting things they did. The alternative is designing quests where you do much more of those cool and interesting things with them. You can have a character stand there and spout 5,000 words on some battle they fought in, or you can have a quest where you run into some roving deserters from your companion's old unit and the dry bits of history and exposition get tied to more immediately interesting events that the player has some role in.

Visuals or voice acting or anything else don't really come into this. A completely text-based RPG faces the same narrative choices.

The standard example I've seen used in the past is that it's like the difference between The Hobbit and The Silmarillion.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'm not talking about text versus visuals, though. I'm talking about how in PoE, every time you talk to a companion they tell you their life's story, and all these cool and interesting things they did. The alternative is designing quests where you do much more of those cool and interesting things with them. You can have a character stand there and spout 5,000 words on some battle they fought in, or you can have a quest where you run into some roving deserters from your companion's old unit and the dry bits of history and exposition get tied to more immediately interesting events that the player has some role in.

Well, I will agree to disagree that your approach is not my preferred approach nor ideal for my preferences.

The only problem I see with your example is that the quest content would not tell you as much as a good exposition would. Essentially, you're taking some quantity of the back story of the character (which can't be learned about unless told to you or experienced in some sort of "flashback" experience) out of the experience and replacing it with interactive gameplay that takes place in the now.

Doing interesting things with companions is great. I think learning about their past cool things they did, etc., via text exposition is great, too.

Why can't we have both? Again, it comes down to striking a good balance. There were interesting quests in PoE that actively involved companions, such as searching the under-the-stronghold dungeon with Kana, as well as interesting talks with companions with tons of words that I also greatly enjoyed (Durance's writing, for example).

Again, this is just my personal opinion.

 

[animlboogy]

I'm not talking about text versus visuals, though. I'm talking about how in PoE, every time you talk to a companion they tell you their life's story, and all these cool and interesting things they did. The alternative is designing quests where you do much more of those cool and interesting things with them. You can have a character stand there and spout 5,000 words on some battle they fought in, or you can have a quest where you run into some roving deserters from your companion's old unit and the dry bits of history and exposition get tied to more immediately interesting events that the player has some role in.

Well, I will agree to disagree that your approach is not my preferred approach nor ideal for my preferences.

The only problem I see with your example is that the quest content would not tell you as much as a good exposition would. Essentially, you're taking some quantity of the back story of the character (which can't be learned about unless told to you or experienced in some sort of "flashback" experience) out of the experience and replacing it with interactive gameplay that takes place in the now.

Doing interesting things with companions is great. I think learning about their past cool things they did, etc., via text exposition is great, too.

Why can't we have both? Again, it comes down to striking a good balance. There were interesting quests in PoE that actively involved companions, such as searching the under-the-stronghold dungeon with Kana, as well as interesting talks with companions with tons of words that I also greatly enjoyed (Durance's writing, for example).

Again, this is just my personal opinion.

Of course you use both to an extent. Compare PoE to PS:T, to see what I'm getting at. It's all text and conversation, but the player has a lot of agency in the latter game. Same goes for a great deal of the conversations in Fallout. In PoE, you're passive. You're getting the wikipedia entry take on storytelling.

Like, fine, Morrowind is nice, and some of those lore dump books are fantastic, but if we got a version where the 36 Lessons of Vivec were also communicated as some sort of bizarre interactive questline, that's the version I'd rather experience.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Of course you use both to an extent. Compare PoE to PS:T, to see what I'm getting at. It's all text and conversation, but the player has a lot of agency in the latter game. Same goes for a great deal of the conversations in Fallout. In PoE, you're passive. You're getting the wikipedia entry take on storytelling.

Like, fine, Morrowind is nice, and some of those lore dump books are fantastic, but if we got a version where the 36 Lessons of Vivec were also communicated as some sort of bizarre interactive questline, that's the version I'd rather experience.

Not me.

Why? When you realize there are 36 Lessons of Vivec, you couldn't possibly have a quest for each one.

I'm not saying a bizarre, interactive questline wouldn't be great, but 36 books couldn't possibly be conveyed in a questline, either, especially with the amount of detail covered in the books themselves. So again, you're sacrificing a lot of the quantity of some interesting text in order to have an interactive questline, which essentially tells you less in the long run.

But okay, you say PoE is the wikipedia of storytelling. That is obviously your opinion, and it can be looked at that way, but I'm arguing that's not necessarily a bad thing for everyone.

I guarantee you, I was deeply involved in the text of PoE, just like many text-heavy RPGs before that. I found the world fascinating.

From what I remember, you weren't entirely passive, either, as you often had options of how to respond to the person talking. Whether they were false choices or not, you still had an option that you weren't quite sure where it would lead.

I haven't played PS:T or Fallout yet, sadly, so I can't compare them.

Basically, for me, this entire argument comes right back to personal preferences, and that there isn't a one, singular "correct" approach to RPG development.

I could even grant you everything you claim about PoE is true. Yet it was still received in a very positive way, and I personally think it's a modern classic.

If you're talking about improving PoE with your suggestions, well, we could infinitely improve any RPG by adding a bit more of everything good.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Ban fluent

 

[abnaxus]

Both need to hit the gym and inject T

 

[an Administrator]

Both need to hit the gym and inject T

The guy on the left is alright

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[Ninjerk]

That was in response to everything fluent has said in this thread but I was too tired to correct.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

There is no correcting someone's opinion. Everyone has different preferences and enjoys different things.

 

[an Administrator]

but I'm arguing that's [loredumps] not necessarily a bad thing for everyone.

I found the world fascinating.

I haven't played PS:T or Fallout yet

I personally think it's [PoE] a modern classic.

boi

 

[Ninjerk]

fluent's new favorite RPG in the cut

Spoiler

 

[animlboogy]

There is no correcting someone's opinion.

You keep saying this, like it's some kind of invocation. BRB, sprinking holy water on my nips to protect me while I post on the Codex.

 

[Excidium II]

Both need to hit the gym and inject T

uncanny.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I just want to make it very clear that everyone can have their own opinion. I'm not out here saying that my way is the "best" way. I view talk like that completely meaningless since people's tastes are entirely subjective.

If I ever do say something is the "best" or "better", that's just in my own opinion for me, not stating some universal fact.

PoE vs. Wikipedia, hmm. I think I'll play PoE instead.

 

[animlboogy]

Uhhh, sure. When I engaged you, I didn't come in with some manifesto about the One True RPG. We're just talking about expository storytelling in games, and for some reason you keep flashing the sign of the cross at me.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I didn't say you did.

I initially responded with the opinion comment to Ninjerk who made a bunch of silly faces at everything I said in this thread, and you started posting some comments about holy water and stuff instead of responding to my last post. No idea why.

 

[animlboogy]

You keep going on about "just my opinion" "different people like different things" etc. Make an argument for something or don't. Opinions aren't sacred.

 

[Ninjerk]

Mine is.