Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone at Digital Dragons 2016

[Mustawd]

Looks like I am responsible for one of those rare moments when Codex is enthusiastic. Achievement worthy of putting on CV

 

[Fairfax]

You delivered, Jedi Master Radek. Bravo.

Because some of the trap that Western RPGs fall into is they'll introduce a few characters at the beginning that you get really attached to, but then when you meet a new character you don't want to switch out because you're comfortable with the old guy. Japanese RPGs stage it so everybody gets equal screen time at the beginning, and it's staggered out. And then at the end, they let you choose, but you've been introduced to all the characters sort of at once, in stages, and I think that works a lot better.

So true. This also explains why he was disappointed that Sunny Smiles and the two temporary companions from PoE never join you.

The most difficult part was how it was handled. I got to hear second-hand that it was gonna be cut and later on the creative lead apologized to me about it. But that didn't really change how the process worked. And what I... I mean, the changes happened and I was happy to make the changes but I thought the entire thing was held extremely poorly.

Very likely that he's talking about Sawyer. Don't know if he had stuff cut in NWN2, but he did in FNV and PoE, and in AP he was the Lead Designer.

I did not want to be a lead writer at Obsidian.

I guess that answers a common question here. Although as Roguey said, could've used a follow-up.

JMR: What's your dream project? Do you think you'll ever realize it? On the same note, hypothetically, if you didn't have to worry about financial returns, what game would you make?

MCA: So I don't care about financial returns anymore, because that doesn't make me happy. If I were to work on a dream project, I probably couldn't say too much about it, but it would probably have to wait for a little while until family stuff settles down, but um... it would probably not involve a lot of text. [laughs] It would probably be a story more conveyed through visuals.

Yup, he's going to make his dream project soon.

the Disciple in KotOR 2 did. He turned into kind of a big pussy, but that for some reason, that's how he came out.

JMR: What concept would you most like to explore in a future project? What concept do you think is overused in RPGs?

MCA: The idea of a chosen one. “Oh, I'm special”, especially when there's no real reason behind it, and... that's a problem. Another motif is, for some reasons you're the only one doing things. The rest of the world holds still while you take your time, I think that's kind of garbage. Also... [thinks for a while] This is kind of weird, but what I don't like is I feel there's a lot of games that introduce very interesting characters right from the outset, like in New Vegas, like you get Sunny Smiles and her dog. I would have liked to have her as a companion, but for some reason those characters never seem to be able to join your party which is kind of weird, and then they're kind of shuttled off and forgotten, which just is kind of bizarre. So I don't really understand why that happens, when in fact that's one of the best opportunities to introduce a companion character. And if it's up to me I try to make sure you can, but when games don't do that, that feels weird.
JMR: [flips through pages searching for the next question]

MCA: Oh, I'm sorry, also like one other thing... like, sometimes I think, uh... some writers fall into the trap that they have to explain everything to the player. Like they just give like a huge word vomit dump about like what everyone's thinking and what my grand plan is. And you know what, players aren't dumb. Like, you can seed that stuff around and players can make the logical leaps about what people's motivations are, why they want to do things, without them having to come out and say it. And sometimes when you get faced with exposition like that... I just shake my head and want to cry. Because it would have been far more interesting if you could help interpret what their motivations were and see how they came to be, rather than them just telling you how things happened. And that's kind of irritating. Because some of the trap that Western RPGs fall into is they'll introduce a few characters at the beginning that you get really attached to, but then when you meet a new character you don't want to switch out because you're comfortable with the old guy. Japanese RPGs stage it so everybody gets equal screen time at the beginning, and it's staggered out. And then at the end, they let you choose, but you've been introduced to all the characters sort of at once, in stages, and I think that works a lot better.

Bravo to this entire part. Amazing how Radek's second question was fairly simple but still lead to an in-depth criticism of WRPGs by MCA. Oh, and intentional or not, that's some strong PoE bashing right there.

- I knew he's hard on himself for KOTOR2's issues, but I thought he'd say that's his favourite Obsidian game. "None" speaks volumes, if you ask me.

JMR: Maybe just one more question. Can you tell us something we don't know about the Alien RPG you were making?

MCA: Oh... [thinks for a while] I don't know, I might ask Obsidian about that, because I don't think there's anything more that I can say about it that I haven't already said. I'm just sorry it wasn't done. [laughs] That's what really sucked. I mean, we were really enjoying working on it, and the character concepts were really cool, and just... I have no idea why it didn't happen. So that's... I don't really know too much, so there's actually not a lot I could say. I'm sorry, I wish I had a more interesting answer. [laughs]

MCA seems to have mixed feelings about the Aliens RPG. He's what he said back in 2010:

Prima: What happened with that cancelled Aliens game you guys were doing?

Chris Avellone: I can't say much - you should ask SEGA about it - but I will say this: I think it ended up being a good thing, overall. And I will take that opinion with me to my grave.

I suspect the "good thing overall" is how they got to develop their own tools, but it also sounds like he's glad it was cancelled. Don't know why exactly he said "take that opinion with me to my grave". It suggests to me that it was a controversial opinion or something like that, but I don't know.

 

[animlboogy]

Chris looked tired so I didn't ask him more questions. “Wow that was thoughtful. Codex should pay you for that” he said when the interview was concluded. The amazing thing about Avellone is how easy it is to speak with him, you feel like you have known him for years, words just come into your mouth naturally. When you are having a conversation with Chris, nothing feels more natural than having conversation with him.

This reads like the intro to some super hot MCA erotica.

 

[Fairfax]

Chris looked tired so I didn't ask him more questions. “Wow that was thoughtful. Codex should pay you for that” he said when the interview was concluded. The amazing thing about Avellone is how easy it is to speak with him, you feel like you have known him for years, words just come into your mouth naturally. When you are having a conversation with Chris, nothing feels more natural than having conversation with him.

This reads like the intro to some super hot MCA erotica.

Now that you mention it....

Thankfully it turned out to be a very beautiful and atmospheric place. It stared to rain a warm, slow May rain when I was waiting. Then MCA came.

 

[mediocrepoet]

This is the one that stood out to me: "... it's always worthwhile to be pleasant and share respect to everybody, until the moment that you realize that they don't treat you the same way. And when you suddenly realize that some people are poison, those are the people... you're not mean to them, but you just cut them out of your life. You're like, “You know what? Having you in my circle or around me or knowing anything about me has proven to be poisonous in our relationship, and I can't have you in my life anymore.”"

Maybe I'm reading into it, but that with the whole being viewed in a certain way thing, etc. and maybe not parting very amiably from Obsidian...

 

[Mustawd]

Maybe I'm reading into it,

Meh, ur probably reading into it. His departure from Obsidian sounds more like a bid for creative freedom and less like sour grapes.

 

[Ninjerk]

He previously said that Anthony Davis and one other person were his only friends at Obsidian so...

 

[Fairfax]

This is the one that stood out to me: "... it's always worthwhile to be pleasant and share respect to everybody, until the moment that you realize that they don't treat you the same way. And when you suddenly realize that some people are poison, those are the people... you're not mean to them, but you just cut them out of your life. You're like, “You know what? Having you in my circle or around me or knowing anything about me has proven to be poisonous in our relationship, and I can't have you in my life anymore.”"

Maybe I'm reading into it, but that with the whole being viewed in a certain way thing, etc. and maybe not parting very amiably from Obsidian...

You should listen to this interview (or better yet, read my summary heh). At this point I think there's no doubt he didn't exactly leave on friendly terms, at least not with Obsidian's leadership.

He previously said that Anthony Davis and one other person were his only friends at Obsidian so...

Brian Menze.

 

[Latro]

did some extra editing

Chris looked boyishly demure so I didn't ask him more questions. “Wow that was thoughtful. Codex should pay you for that” he said softly when the interview was concluded. The amazing thing about Avellone is how easy it is to speak with him, you feel like you have known him for years, his breath just comes into your mouth naturally. When you are having a conversation with Chris, face-to-face and holding hands, nothing feels more natural than having conversation with him. As I began to stumble my way out of the bathroom stall he whispered "That'll do boy, that'll do...".

 

[Mustawd]

Well, try being a creative person and then suddenly being tasked with the responsibilities of an owner. Sid Meier went through the same.

 

[Latro]

The most difficult part was how it was handled. I got to hear second-hand that it was gonna be cut and later on the creative lead apologized to me about it. But that didn't really change how the process worked. And what I... I mean, the changes happened and I was happy to make the changes but I thought the entire thing was held extremely poorly.

Very likely that he's talking about Sawyer. Don't know if he had stuff cut in NWN2, but he did in FNV and PoE, and in AP he was the Lead Designer.

So the Codex fan-fiction was true. Wasn't really hard to see when Sawyer cut him off in that PoE panel when someone asked about PS:T

 

[Ninjerk]

did some extra editing

Chris looked boyishly demure so I didn't ask him more questions. “Wow that was thoughtful. Codex should pay you for that” he said softly when the interview was concluded. The amazing thing about Avellone is how easy it is to speak with him, you feel like you have known him for years, his breath just comes into your mouth naturally. When you are having a conversation with Chris, face-to-face and holding hands, nothing feels more natural than having conversation with him. As I began to stumble my way out of the bathroom stall he whispered "That'll do boy, that'll do...".

Maybe the next MCA game will be eroge.

 

[Irenaeus]

I had to google Sunny Smiles. Very unremarkable character. To me she was "Tutorial Girl #999"

JMR: Which of your famous characters have ended up going in a different direction?

MCA: (...) the character Sand in Neverwinter Nights 2 was never supposed to be written that way. But then he just came out that way. Also, Grobnar in Neverwinter Nights 2 came out a lot differently and then the voice acting made him worse

Well, I guess in Pillars of Eternity I didn't always quite understand the spirit recycling mechanic. Um... I didn't always understand how that worked with the spell system and other elements of the world. And I think the way I interpreted people living forever was a little bit different than everybody else. And also I got a little bit confused about um... well, I got confused about the fact that the central premise in Pillars is an interesting one, but I don't know if the story, including the stuff that I wrote, helps support that theme. Because in order for that theme to work, you need to emphasize how important the gods are in that world, and I never really got the sense they were really all that important

Interesting. I had zero problems understanding it.

I rarely meet a mean game developer or a mean game player.

He should visit the codex more.

if you're one step removed from any franchise, whether it's Star Wars or Fallout or whatever, if you're not there, at the place that owns the actual lore, there is a lot of hoops you have to jump through to get stuff approved, and it's exhausting.

This makes a lot of sense, obv.

It was a really weird franchise, though. The fact that someone wanted to do Snow White and the Seven Dwarves as an RPG... I was like, “All right, that's weird.”

I also think it's very weird and far-fetched.

people don't consider reputation, they don't consider what that says to your public, they don't consider what it says to the players and sometimes to make a really good game, like, you have to sacrifice.

And every time you compromise that just weakens your reputation, bit by bit, until noone trusts you anymore.

Well said.

And I've heard really good things about Age of Decadence. I think that the creators sent me the demo to play a long time ago, but I... I think I played about an hour of that and gave them some feedback on it. But I didn't dive very deeply into Age of Decadence unfortunately, but I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Play it!

Actually, AoD is so NOT MCA. Nevermind

 

[Perkel]

Good interview. Though you should push MCA to play AoD more.

 

[Prime Junta]

Really good interview. Also MCA is a fucking bodhisattva.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I think this is something that set Chris at odds with the modern trend in western RPGs in general and at Obsidian in particular, to make games about "factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding".

Which is precisely why MCA is one of the few people in this business who aren't fucking hacks.

 

[Infinitron]

I think this is something that set Chris at odds with the modern trend in western RPGs in general and at Obsidian in particular, to make games about "factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding".

Which is precisely why MCA is one of the few people in this business who aren't fucking hacks.

Uh huh. But on the other hand, those things are the key to lots of the C&C and detail that the Codex likes.

I think if you showed this sentence to your average Codexer:

Ideally a computer game story very selfishly focuses on the player

without telling him who said it, he might guess it was somebody at BioWare who said that. And if you said you were making a game where "the world has a story of its own, and the player just gets injected into it", I think a lot of Codexers would say that sounds pretty cool. Realistic, not a wish fulfillment fantasy, etc.

 

[KickAss]

it made me sad that MCA feels that he wasted years in Obsidian (probably true, though)

 

[Irenaeus]

"factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding" is great.

Look at AoD.

 

[an Administrator]

Very great interview. :mrpresident:

Ideally a computer game story very selfishly focuses on the player

Emmmm.. I disagree.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Uh huh. But on the other hand, those things are the key to lots of the C&C and detail that the Codex likes.

bullshit/lies/r00fles

A focus on lore and worldbuilding doesn't lead to shit other than masturbation. Factions are the same because if you "focus" on them, you are 99% likely to fall into the trap of having said factions influence everything that matters while the player just sits on the side and does fedex quests.

I think if you showed this sentence to your average Codexer:

Ideally a computer game story very selfishly focuses on the player

without telling him who said it, he might guess it was somebody at BioWare who said that.

A game is supposed to focus on the player!!

STOP THE PRESSES THIS IS AN OUTRAGEOUSLY CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT!!!

 

[ZagorTeNej]

So before I go to bed, I'm going to comment on one thing that stood out to me in this interview.

I think some writer gets it into their head that they want to tell a story about the world

Ideally a computer game story very selfishly focuses on the player, and pays attention to the stuff that he does and reacts very specifically to that character

I think this is something that sets Chris at odds with the modern trend, in western RPGs in general and at Obsidian in particular, to make games about "factions" and "lore" and "worldbuilding". The truth is that the Avellonian way of design is extremely well-suited to working with existing licenses and existing worlds, and when you have to create your own, it inevitably distracts from a lot of what he likes doing.

What might be suitable for Chris is worldbuilding in the JRPG/Final Fantasy tradition. In those games, the worlds can be colorful and imaginative, but they also tend to be fungible, even disposable. They're really just a backdrop for more personal stories.

Not really, you can create a new world but still not use all of the material in the game/dump everything on the player but have him discover it by bits and pieces through his interaction with the world and its inhabitants while he's on his personal quest, just stick the rest in the manual if you absolutely have to (though not knowing everything about the setting adds to the mystery).

The modern trend that he is at odds with (and states it plainly in the interview) is treating players like idiots and having every NPCs in the game act like Ebb Creaknees and Candrian. Wiki dump chars have their place for players who yearn for more but they shouldn't be the norm, the player shouldn't be treated like a toddler that will get lost in the world if he isn't familiarized with its inner workings and rules right from the start. You don't bomb him with information, you let him discover and explore.

 

[Duraframe300]

it made me sad that MCA feels that he wasted years in Obsidian (probably true, though)

Well, nobody could say. While its clear Chris had a lot of frustrations it's not exactly an uncommon situation he finds himself in, for creative types especially.
Nor is it a guarantee it will go swimmingly from now on. (Or that the codex will be all that enarmored with potential creations)

At all.

That said a change of pace was certainly in order. Hopefully it goes well for him and he actually gets the chance to go through with another game.

(In some ways it reminds me of how frustrated the Troika came off Interplay and finally, well Troika.)

 

[Infinitron]

ZagorTeNej These are two different things. In the section that I quoted, he's talking about what a game's story is about and the player character's role in it, not about how verbose the writing is. You can make a story that's really about the world and not the player without having poorly paced loredumps.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

ZagorTeNej These are two different things. In the section that I quoted, he's talking about what a game's story is about and the player character's role in it, not about how verbose the writing is. You can make a story that's really about the world and not the player without having poorly paced loredumps.

Wiki style dialogue is verbose as a rule but not every verbose dialogue can be considered wiki style. My point is that you can indirectly tell player about the world even if the whole experience is personal/player focused.

Say you come up with a faction for your game and you write 10 pages about its history, rules traditions etc. but instead of having a doorman dump all that text on the player you instead use that written material only as guidelines to said faction behaviour in the game when the player interacts with it (and as a consequence the player gets the idea of what said faction is all about).