RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Big Wrangle]

This thread in a nutshell:

Reported for funny harvesting.

 

[JarlFrank]

Chris Avellone a more general question apart from the current drama, what is your overall view for the future of the genre? Are you optimistic about it or not? And what's the kind of game you'd like to work on the most, or, essentially, what would be your own dream game that you'd make if someone handed you a million bucks and said "make a game"?

 

[Bigg Boss]

I feel much better about myself since MCA is up late shitposting. Now I just need to make one of them RPG things.

 

[Abu Antar]

What JarlFrank is trying to say is: Chris Avellone come work on our game.

 

[Big Wrangle]

Chris Avellone what settings would you say are "untapped" as far as games are concerned, especially RPGs?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Let's just keep Project Indiana out of this, shall we? If we're all itching so much for a new Tim&Leo game, what's the purpose of trying to damage their standing with Take2? You're also opening yourself up for a libel suit a size of Titanic. And you didn't actually work on Indiana, correct Chris? You have someone leaking you information, and if it's a small team that person will be identified swiftly.

This is bad sport and it's not good for anybody.

Are you serious? I don't ever think Tim and Leonard would jeopardize a relationship with Take2, but I would 100% believe the upper management owners at Obsidian would fuck it up with their additions and requests, based on experience that I've seen while I was there. Even the owner who was Lead Programmer went off the project b/c he, true to form, likely wasn't doing what a Lead Programmer should do.

Sorry, but I can't be silent unless I hear a compelling counter-argument: And I've seen what Obsidian can do first-hand, even when they LIKE a publisher. It's not something you would support unless you are a much different person than you seem to be.

Also, I would argue that it would be good if Tim and Leonard were directly financed by Take2 and Feargus went off to the pauper's corner and reaped no benefit from Tim and Leonard's work (I felt the same way about Fallout 1 and 2). I'm not being spiteful, but I am being dismissive with good reason - I doubt any of the owners have much to do the game being well-received by Take2. If you want to fight me on this, it will likely be useless, though, unless others speak out (beyond Glassdoor, that is). Shall we let time tell how this shakes out? My verdict: The game will be great, and it won't be due to the Obsidian owners, but the team who worked on it.

 

[Carnarium]

Chris, why do you think people assume that you and Sawyer can't get along?

He clearly misses you:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/pillars-of-eternity-2-deadfire/chris-avellone-obsidian

 

[Quantomas]

Chris Avellone

Could you talk about more canned projects? Like the game you were making with Disney? Or other stuff we haven’t heard about? Are most of those cancellations because of Feargus?

Dwarves was Disney’s part. Kevin or Brian Mitsoda could speak to it more – if they were allowed to speak.

Hidden was a pitch that never got optioned (it was urban fantasy). Which was good it didn’t get optioned, because the idea was taken from another developer at Capcom that Feargus stole and then slightly modified the idea from (a developer who I’ve since apologized to and explained what happened). Feargus felt strongly if we took the idea and made some tweaks to it, it was all right and Obsidian could make it work. I didn’t feel good about it, but to my shame, I went along with it. Yes, I suck and I should have fought harder, but at the time, I was overlooking things and trying to be supportive of someone who had seemingly been supportive to me.

Overall, with Hidden, you weren’t missing anything – Fables comics and the Dresden Files books were better than what was put together (and it wasn't even as good as the Capcom pitch), and because of how it got put into being, I’m glad it never went anywhere.

There were a lot of prototypes and small projects that failed for various reasons, some run by Parker, some run by Feargus - all governing a small team.

On top of this, Feargus would often request pitches and proposals from Obsidianites, then never do anything with any of them (the other owners were also culpable for this). After the second time he did this, I told him while I would help him set up a structure for accepting proposals, I would no longer be responsible for asking for them. He got mad at this, and pushed me to send out the request to be the "face" of the asking, and I told him I wouldn’t because he never reviewed or accepted any of them – he was just asking for people’s cool ideas and ignoring all of them. It was cruel, and a waste of people’s time at the studio – why do you give false hope to people? I will say, we got a LOT of kick-ass ideas (Tony Evans and Frank Kowalkowski – both gone – had some great pitches, and so did Dennis Presnell, if I recall correctly). The cruel bit was once they submitted them, even though Obsidian would do nothing with them, that meant they were all owned by the company and would gather dust. It was a garbage practice that I no longer subscribed to (and yes, I feel bad for the first two times I advocated it, but at the time, I thought the owners were making genuine requests that would be actually evaluated).

Something similar happened with a global request to Obsidian artists to make a logo for the studio – which was done, all were rejected, despite the fact Feargus said he would choose a winner and reward them (cash prize, which arguably all the artists would have been happy to have). While you can argue that was upper management’s right to reject them all if they weren't happy with one, they didn’t exactly say they hadn’t chosen one, and because they also had promised a cash prize for the winner, this caused a lot of questions… because it was never delivered on and never paid to anyone. While this is their right, I think they could have altered the rules of the request to account for them being dissatisfied with all the results and making a contingency plan for that that still thanked people for their work, or asked for new options - or something.) I will say that because Feargus, Darren, and Parker didn't choose any of them, they were indirectly insulting the art skills of our artists by doing so, which made a bad situation even worse.

Backspace failed because Stormlands got them fired because they were in the middle of a prototype and thus, were all considered expendable despite their skills and how much they'd done for the company (again, Feargus's sister was retained, however). I do believe Jason Fader would love to get it back, though, but… nope. Even if Obsidian has no plans to do anything with it, they’re keeping it (I had much the same experience of having a pitch taken from me when it was clear we weren’t going to do Defiance b/c Parker hated it and swore he’d “check out” if we kept discussing it and pushing ahead with it [Note that if I had said the same thing, you can bet I’d have been suspended or fired, but it was Parker saying he'd check out, Feargus listened to him]. After it was clear it couldn't go anywhere, I asked Feargus if I could at least do something with it outside the company, he refused - which is his right, but I had spent a lot of time on it, and it was disheartening to see it shelved with no intention of ever being used for anything. If you don't support it, why are you keeping it?).

Lastly, there were project pitches that were mismanaged in new and exciting ways. One got weighed down by being initially being (correctly) confined to a small team (Mikey Dowling, me, and a few others, but Mikey's passion for the material was the important heart of the project), but then, new people and owners were added to the email chains and they would interrupt the communication with the potential publisher. This happened in increasing amounts (almost doubling the email thread) until the publisher had no idea who they should be talking to anymore. It would have been a huge win for the studio had we got it, but again, it was not meant to be, and it was definitely our process that clouded the pitch.

And while I kept wishing Obsidian would let Rich Taylor make a game, that’s a rug that’s been ripped out twice already for two projects (Rich was the PD who kept Armored Warfare running and supported most of the studio – he’s also an avid gamer, and one of the developers I have a lot of respect for). I don’t know what he’s doing now, but I’m hoping his talents aren’t being wasted because he should be making games, and making good ones.

That is probably the most significant thing you have said in this thread.

I'm glad you left and forged your own path. But please, never again sign a contract that is pushed onto you. You have rights.

 

[Chris Avellone]

My hunch is that Josh Sawyer's interest in unionization and related topics is a consequence of his increasing political engagement following the 2016 US elections, and not related to Obsidian specifically.

So... that's a guess? Sorry, asking for the sake of news.

I only ask because your speculation without facts I find incredibly boring unless the people speculating have bazookas.

 

[Blaine]

Rostere What's the third option?

 

[TT1]

Chris Avellone if Paradox propose you to work in Tyranny 2 would you be interested (if obsidian is not involved)

 

[Infinitron]

My hunch is that Josh Sawyer's interest in unionization and related topics is a consequence of his increasing political engagement following the 2016 US elections, and not related to Obsidian specifically.

So... that's a guess? Sorry, asking for the sake of news.

I only ask because your speculation without facts I find incredibly boring unless the people speculating have bazookas.

It's an educated guess given that :

1) In the same talk where he spoke about these things, Josh was effusive about how Obsidian doesn't do crunch time (something he had to actually walk back a bit afterwards)

2) Josh wears his Bernie Bro affiliations on his sleeve on Twitter.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone join the official discord my son it's gonna be more fun that hanging out with the rabble here gathered

I don't hang out with malnourished twigs like yourself, skinny-boy. Also, these aren't rabble - these are people who love RPGs, so embrace it.

 

[TT1]

Chris Avellone if you could choose your dream project and dream team, what it would be?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone if Paradox propose you to work in Tyranny 2 would you be interested (if obsidian is not involved)

I would always work with Paradox again. I like Fred and their production team very much (and even their business development, which is usually a hard sell for me, but the ones at Paradox, I really like).

 

[Big Wrangle]

Chris Avellone for the sake of it, when do estimate the permanent shutdown of Obsidian if the upper management doesn't undergo a revaluation?

 

[Jaedar]

Chris Avellone
Are you becoming a full time poster on the codex? (I'm not complaining)

 

[Quillon]

Give MCA a "Judge of Characters" tag.

Why haven't this happened yet? Even Sawyer agrees...

replied. “I think that one of his greatest assets is his ability to look at a character or storyline and give just really insightful feedback.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Let's just keep Project Indiana out of this, shall we? If we're all itching so much for a new Tim&Leo game, what's the purpose of trying to damage their standing with Take2? You're also opening yourself up for a libel suit a size of Titanic. And you didn't actually work on Indiana, correct Chris? You have someone leaking you information, and if it's a small team that person will be identified swiftly.

This is bad sport and it's not good for anybody.

Are you serious? I don't ever think Tim and Leonard jeopardize a relationship with Take2, but I would 100% believe the upper management owners at Obsidian would fuck it up with their additions and requests, based on experience that I've seen while I was there. Even the owner who was Lead Programmer went off the project b/c he, true to form, likely wasn't doing what a Lead Programmer should do.

Sorry, but I can't be silent unless I hear a compelling counter-argument: And I've seen what Obsidian can do first-hand, even when they LIKE a publisher. It's not something you would support unless you are a much different person than you seem to be.

Also, I would argue that it would be good if Tim and Leonard were directly financed by Take2 and Feargus went off to the pauper's corner and reaped no benefit from Tim and Leonard's work (I felt the same way about Fallout 1 and 2). I'm not being spiteful, but I am being dismissive with good reason - I doubt any of the owners have much to do the game being well-received by Take2. If you want to fight me on this, it will likely be useless, though, unless others speak out (beyond Glassdoor, that is). Shall we let time tell how this shakes out? My verdict: The game will be great, and it won't be due to the Obsidian owners, but the team who worked on it.

Here’s a related question: have you ever seen Feargus back down or restrain himself from conflict with a publisher out of fear/self-preservation? Or does he have such a fragile ego that he can’t control himself? You’ve said there are people like Sawyer and Parker who he seems to treat better out of a desire for their respect/validation. Has that ever been the case with a publisher?

To put it better: what’s the best way for a publisher like TTWO to manage Feargus to prevent him from doing too much damage? Does Strauss Zelnick need to send him a bouquet of roses every day or a box of cupcakes? Should TTWO give him an all expenses paid vacation to some remote island for the next six months to get him out of the way?

Edit: please help Tim, Leonard and the gang by giving TTWO the tools they need to break FU’s will or at least domesticate him.

 

[Abu Antar]

Chris Avellone Go to bed, man. You were posting in here before I went to bed. Half my work day is over and you’re still here.

 

[Chris Avellone]

It's an educated guess given that :

1) In the same talk where he spoke about these things, Josh was effusive about how Obsidian doesn't do crunch time (something he had to actually walk back a bit afterwards)

2) Josh wears his Bernie Bro affiliations on his sleeve on Twitter.

I cannot help you with this topic, then. If it's not a direct call-out to a place I've worked for, well, I genuinely don't know the conditions.

Also, if Obsidian doesn't do anything bad that would merit a union, why are we discussing this and why does Josh think Obsidian needs a union? (I haven't watched the talk.) Or does Josh mean Midway or something? I honestly have no idea if Midway is even still breathing.

I don't really want to waste time debating this with you, but if you asked if I thought we should look into unions, I would say that, yes, more facts are good in situations like these, and researching what unions might bring to the table is worthwhile - I like facts and data and information, but also respect that they may cause incredible problems if enacted without some thought.

That said, I know many companies that already fight against having Writer's Guild union mandates in their contracts, which is partly the reason I didn't accept a WGA membership - mostly because it didn't help writing for games and game companies didn't like it.

 

[Diablo169]

Chris Avellone Do you think you will ever write or create as much for a game again as you did on Torment? Or are you more focused on smaller jobs across multiple titles now? I'm sure everyone here would want a massive story from you again, but I'm curious if that's something you would want or feel capable of doing again?

 

[Cyberarmy]

Are you becoming a full time poster on the codex? (I'm not complaining)

We can only hope :D

 

[Quillon]

researching what unions might bring to the table is worthwhile - I like facts and data and information, but also respect that they may cause incredible problems if enacted without some thought.

That's exactly what Josh said. You two are made for each other.

 

[Infinitron]

I cannot help you with this topic, then. If it's not a direct call-out to a place I've worked for, well, I genuinely don't know the conditions.

Also, if Obsidian doesn't do anything bad that would merit a union, why are we discussing this and why does Josh think Obsidian needs a union? (I haven't watched the talk.) Or does Josh mean Midway or something? I honestly have no idea if Midway is even still breathing.

I don't really want to waste time debating this with you, but if you asked if I thought we should look into unions, I would say that, yes, more facts are good in situations like these, and researching what unions might bring to the table is worthwhile - I like facts and data and information, but also respect that they may cause incredible problems if enacted without some thought.

That said, I know many companies that already fight against having Writer's Guild union mandates in their contracts, which is partly the reason I didn't accept a WGA membership - mostly because it didn't help writing for games and game companies didn't like it.

It seemed to me to be a "general opinion piece" sort of talk not related to any one studio. I wouldn't call it data-driven exactly (there isn't much data out there after all) but he did bring up arguments both for and against.

You can watch it here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/252031193?t=06h06m21s