RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[ScrotumBroth]

Hey Mr Chris Avellone

Thank you for taking the time to mingle with us here.

As someone who was very much into Kickstarter RPGs, I've found it extremely frustrating to see your name thrown around multiple projects, often with great ambiguity as to exactly what your role and level of contribution are, when directly asked on their respective Kickstarter Q&A sections.
From my understanding, usually you were given an NPC or two to write, or just a specific part of the game.

How much information and control did you have over this? Would you care to illuminate how the process went from recruiting your skills went to the marketing of a project. I can't offer any links, but often your title was presented as Lead Writter/Narrative, or even Founder of a team.

This may pass with casuals, but I actually respect and know of your work, so dangling the worm irresponsibly left me somewhat sour.

 

[Shilandra]

But I didn't say she's a true neutral. I said she appears as such in the character window, hence why I proposed the idea that she's concealing her true alignment.
I agree with your post, I think it's pretty much what I was saying, even.

Anyway, if that was intentional, and even if it's not, the idea of Kreia subverting the influence gimmick to her own gain is a damn great idea that ties an aspect of gameplay to the story. It also fits her character very well. Pretty damn fucking cool.

Is it intentional,if its an unintended consequence of the system?

I mean, I remember back in nwn2 some of the best awnsers for qara turned you more evil. I think you gaining influence over your companions necessarily gives them influence over you because in order to,increase that influence you have to say what they want to hear and that can have effects in an alignment system.

I don't know exactly how kotor2 does it since I havent finished it or played it all that much but if that's the way the system works it awnsers your question.

Waitaminute, how much more of NWN2 did you play than KotOR2???

Made it to the part where you get the keep (though I attribute that to mostly to playing a bard my third time trying to get through it. Had no idea how well they fit my playstyle and how fun the songs were)

Kotor2 ended for me really fast. It was the part where you play the broken droid. I picked the planet to go on, the game crashed to desktop and never opened again so I just kinda moved on.

 

[aweigh]

Why didn't you google your crash for hours, and spend several days reading forum posts on how to make the game work? And you call yourself a gamer!!!!

 

[Shilandra]

Why didn't you google your crash for hours, and spend several days reading forum posts on how to make the game work? And you call yourself a gamer!!!!

Probably wouldn't have helped since I'm pretty sure its my computer. I mean, it wouldnt even let me install the original Baldurs gate so looking didn't seem like it would be worth the time.

 

[Wunderbar]

Why didn't you google your crash for hours, and spend several days reading forum posts on how to make the game work? And you call yourself a gamer!!!!

Probably wouldn't have helped since I'm pretty sure its my computer. I mean, it wouldnt even let me install the original Baldurs gate so looking didn't seem like it would be worth the time.

these are different situations, BG won't install on modern OS because installer was 16-bit.

 

[Prime Junta]

That actually reminds me of something about KotOR2. The whole game's about being morally gray and deviating from the standard good/evil stuff, but from my memory the reputation system pretty much forces you to go space jesus or space hitler to get any rewards. That always seemed pretty weird to me.

Can confirm. Playing a grey Jedi is disappointing mechanically.

Fortunately the game is so easy it doesn't really matter, but the incentives are stacked against it. Missed opportunity there.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[iamleyeti]

So come on then, out with it. This thread is dying down and we need more drama.

Nothing very exciting; I worked in France and in the UK. In three different studios I have seen and worked with flimsy owners unable to trust the people they hired, unable to make the right decisions, and extremely good at blaming others. I've seen shitty processes. I've seen cost padding (and also fucked-up Excel sheets coming back at us).

Once, the management even modified our design docs before sending them to the client without us knowing, and then not telling us about the changes so we would do our work. The "underdog" story is very, very common even within studios: "We are a team, a family, facing this giant, hydra-like creature called Client, let's stick together." 75% of the time, the client is willing to be a good partner. And we realized they tweaked our docs when our design on the client side came to us directly with the file they sent. Nobody comes out looking professional out of a situation like this.

I can't name names because… NDA. Which sucks. But the turnover is so high there that THEY KNOW people are not stupid (spent 18 months with them, we had at least 5 people leaving every month, our team was around 75 in-house, AAA game stuff, do the math, and cry).

Hey, thanks for signing on and contributing, appreciate it. And thanks for positive comments/hopes about changing the state of the industry.

Thanks for your words and your frankness.

We're seeing here in France a shift in the way game devs are seeing their work. For the first time in YEARS we even had a STRIKE in a video game studio — Eugen Systems, in Paris — which is extremely rare in France. Just let it sink for a second; a RARE occurrence of a STRIKE in FRANCE.

And from this shift, I take ONE insight: we can fix everything. We just need to admit the mistakes, fix them, and more forward as a mature, adult, responsible industry. But when speaking is forbidden, when people refuse to admit their mistakes, you can't fix shit. And the situation keeps on, or deteriorates.

 

[fantadomat]

Replay through the game. You'll notice that in playthroughs where you gain a lot of influence towards her are playthroughs where you're slipping towards the dark side. Everytime. You just don't stay neutral, and you certainly don't bend towards the light side.
As I said, some specific aspects of the dark side don't grant you influence towards her though, like sheer violence and cruelty.
Hence why I ask if it's a deliberate way to tell "Hey you think you're influencing her, but she's the real deal and she's the one influencing you hehe".
Which, again, is not like NWN2 or other systems. Because in kotor II, influencing a companion means you drag him/her toward your alignment, whether it's dark or light side.
But when it comes to Kreia, she doesn't shift. However you definitely bends towards the dark side if you "influence her".

She's also the main companion who's the hardest to influence. Specifically, I feel, because she has very specific leanings.

Strange

,i never ended up going to the dark when i listen to her. But that is because i try to be more neutral in my game and offset her dark points with a few light ones. Also you don't have to listen to her every time and some time you could talk about it with her. Still remember that begger on Nar Shaddaa,after you give him a few bucks get gets beat up by a few thugs and you have a nice dialogue with her. She has a lot of similarities with the followers of the "closed fist" from jade empire.
I always try to have pretty high influence with her,she have a lot of nice stories,cool skills and xp bonuses.

 

[MajorMace]

you're going in circles at this point

> proposes arguments to support the idea that kreia appears grey in kotor ii's system to fit with her character, as she conceals her affinity with the dark side to the player
> but she is grey
> she appears so because she conceals her affinity with the dark side
> but she tells grey stuff
> yes... she conceals hers...
> but that sounds grey

come on, dude

the fact you can metagame to influence her and remain grey or go light doesn't change the facts : if you compile all the things that gain her influence, it clearly leans towards the dark side. And not a single one towards the light side iirc.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

So I don't plan for success, I plan for failure first

Same.

 

[Shilandra]

you're going in circles at this point

> proposes arguments to support the idea that kreia appears grey in kotor ii's system to fit with her character, as she conceals her affinity with the dark side to the player
> but she is grey
> she appears so because she conceals her affinity with the dark side
> but she tells grey stuff
> yes... she conceals hers...
> but that sounds grey

come on, dude

the fact you can metagame to influence her and remain grey or go light doesn't change the facts : if you compile all the things that gain her influence, it clearly leans towards the dark side. And not a single one towards the light side iirc.

So how does this work then? Influence in kotor2 is the players ability to drag the companions into their alignment, right? But according to this kreia situation, in order to gain influence over her, you have to tip into the dark side? So is influence a 2 part process? You gain inflience via something, dialogue in guessing, and then use that influence to change the companions alignment or opinions?

From what ive gathered from the brief conversation above it seems like kreias alignment isn't changeable? You cant drag her to the light or dark and trying to just makes you go more to the dark side. Is it like this for any other companion? If not, and she is the only companions who's alignment can't be changed through inflience then I think the "she's influencing you" theory is the only possibly accurate theory because she's exercising a player character like ability, the ability to have a steady alignment and dragging a companion in the direction she wants them to go.

 

[MajorMace]

Yeah, here's the thing basically (although it was years ago so maybe I forgot smthg) :
- There's a light/dark alignment meter. Keeps track of your choice and is used to unlock force powers depending on your alignment. Maybe used in interactions here and there as well. This was in Kotor I and Kotor II used this too.
- On top of that, and tied with it is the influence system. It's a bit more obscure as iirc you can't see any gauge or number anywhere on your companions to know if you have a lot of influence (either positive or negative, since losing influence matters as well).

The way it works is : your character is either +X% light or +X% dark. If you influence a companion a lot, he'll be +Y% your alignment. If you lose a tonne of influence, he'll be -Y% your alignement (or +Y% the opposite, if you prefer).
Basically, Y is X*influence. So if you're a full light side jedi with half max influence on Atton, he'll be half way towards the light side. If you have - (half max) influence towards him, he'll be half way towards the dark side, getting further from you.
This is used at the end of the game to determine if you can and want to train little padawans or little sith apprentices, basically. I think the game has a total of 4 companions that are sensible to the force.

For Kreia, as you say, her meter either doesn't move at all or barely does so (I think it doesn't but I'm not sure), and she remains in the middle until the end. However, and that's where I'm not sure and am asking MCA, Kreia has a lot of dialogues, but they're extremely asymetrical regarding the consequences of your choices during these (or during the game, she and other companions also react in terms of influence towards your choices obv). In the end, you have like 5 more occasions to lose influence with her than to win some. And I think I told myself back then, close to the end of the game "hey whenever I win influence, it's either neutral or dark side stuff". She also clearly despises violence and cruelty, which yet belong to the dark side, but I guess don't fit her vision of the force (which is also rather dark side oriented).
The game is all in nuances like that. I wouldn't say like others that Kotor II is grey, or that his characters are grey, in relation to the light/dark opposition. But the light and dark aspects of the force are greatly nuanced. And Kreia is a character which represents this in a very cool way.
I think there's also a misunderstanding about her being grey on the light/dark meter. I don't think she's grey, I think she's just concealing her affinity with the force for story reasons.

Which is why I proposed this theory yeah.
It's not just this observation, it's the fact that it really mirrors the story, which even though it's an old game I don't want to spoil too much details about.

ps: needless to add, she's literally there at the beginning to (re)train you as a force user. So there's that as well. She's the master in this relationship.

ps2: now that I'm recollecting memories. I think the idea I had was this :

- she's influencing you to serve her purpose
- she's purposefully trying to influence you in a way that severes any bond you could have with either the light side force users or her enemies from the dark sides
- she's a manipulating bitch in a cool way, as she doesn't necessarily believe the shit she teaches you, or she does but in a twisted way that benefits her agenda (which is dark side oriented) so during the whole game you think she's a grey jedi telling you about how it's better to be balanced and shit, when all she really wants is someone who'll be just as predisposed to confront both jedis and siths.

But that needs confirmation. Plus I don't remember the details of the story, I'll have to replay through that. The game being unfinished even with the restoration mod doesn't help as well.

 

[Shilandra]

Yeah, here's the thing basically (although it was years ago so maybe I forgot smthg) :
- There's a light/dark alignment meter. Keeps track of your choice and is used to unlock force powers depending on your alignment. Maybe used in interactions here and there as well. This was in Kotor I and Kotor II used this too.
- On top of that, and tied with it is the influence system. It's a bit more obscure as iirc you can't see any gauge or number anywhere on your companions to know if you have a lot of influence (either positive or negative, since losing influence matters as well).

The way it works is : your character is either +X% light or +X% dark. If you influence a companion a lot, he'll be +Y% your alignment. If you lose a tonne of influence, he'll be -Y% your alignement (or +Y% the opposite, if you prefer).
Basically, Y is X*influence. So if you're a full light side jedi with half max influence on Atton, he'll be half way towards the light side. If you have - (half max) influence towards him, he'll be half way towards the dark side, getting further from you.
This is used at the end of the game to determine if you can and want to train little padawans or little sith apprentices, basically. I think the game has a total of 4 companions that are sensible to the force.

For Kreia, as you say, her meter either doesn't move at all or barely does so (I think it doesn't but I'm not sure), and she remains in the middle until the end. However, and that's where I'm not sure and am asking MCA, Kreia has a lot of dialogues, but they're extremely asymetrical regarding the consequences of your choices during these (or during the game, she and other companions also react in terms of influence towards your choices obv). In the end, you have like 5 more occasions to lose influence with her than to win some. And I think I told myself back then, close to the end of the game "hey whenever I win influence, it's either neutral or dark side stuff". She also clearly despises violence and cruelty, which yet belong to the dark side, but I guess don't fit her vision of the force (which is also rather dark side oriented).
The game is all in nuances like that. I wouldn't say like others that Kotor II is grey, or that his characters are grey, in relation to the light/dark opposition. But the light and dark aspects of the force are greatly nuanced. And Kreia is a character which represents this in a very cool way.
I think there's also a misunderstanding about her being grey on the light/dark meter. I don't think she's grey, I think she's just concealing her affinity with the force for story reasons.

Which is why I proposed this theory yeah.
It's not just this observation, it's the fact that it really mirrors the story, which even though it's an old game I don't want to spoil too much details about.

ps: needless to add, she's literally there at the beginning to (re)train you as a force user. So there's that as well. She's the master in this relationship.

ps2: now that I'm recollecting memories. I think the idea I had was this :

- she's influencing you to serve her purpose
- she's purposefully trying to influence you in a way that severes any bond you could have with either the light side force users or her enemies from the dark sides
- she's a manipulating bitch in a cool way, as she doesn't necessarily believe the shit she teaches you, or she does but in a twisted way that benefits her agenda (which is dark side oriented) so during the whole game you think she's a grey jedi telling you about how it's better to be balanced and shit, when all she really wants is someone who'll be just as predisposed to confront both jedis and siths.

But that needs confirmation. Plus I don't remember the details of the story, I'll have to replay through that. The game being unfinished even with the restoration mod doesn't help as well.

I guess ill just have to find a way to play the game before I can really start commenting on your theory then. She does sound like an interesting woman so ill have that to look forward to.

 

[MajorMace]

Man the game is quite an experience. I am no fan of star wars, don't know much about it and don't really like its space fantasy tone, but kotor II was very enjoyable.
And this, despite its lack of polish and its rushed ending. Restoration mod is mandatory (actually, I'm not sure it is. HK47's quest is one messy pointless and painful moment, and I think the mod puts it back in).

 

[Average Manatee]

What exactly were the real mechanical benefits of being full light/dark in the KotORs? I don't really recall anything like powers getting stronger or being restricted based on needing a certain level of alignment to unlock. I know that force powers costed more or less based on alignment but you had so much FP that it was kind of meaningless. I do recall the one special power for each alignment (force crush or something for dark, can't remember light variation), did that require a minimum amount of alignment? I always assumed it was determined by your choice at the specific time you unlocked it. I haven't played in years though so I'm certainly not recalling things with an appreciable degree of accuracy.

As to Kreia being happy primarily with grey or dark actions, keep in mind that the light/dark meter is still based on the white/black, good/evil of the movies. In this context light has a very strictly defined action to take while grey and dark are very loosely defined as everything else that isn't light. Since Kreia's whole schtick is about not being confined by the rules, it makes sense that she isn't often appreciating light actions.

One sort of problem with KotOR is that it was hard to really be a consistent grey jedi, you just sort of alternated between light and dark actions to reach an equilibrium. You'd probably need a 3rd dimension to actually do it properly, making an alignment triangle.

 

[MajorMace]

Doesn't it work like in kotor I, with a few spells being restricted to one side or the other ? Or maybe using them grants points or something ?
I don't remember at all. I do remember that force powers are either light, dark or universal. Most of them being universal. Like jedis have a heal and siths have a health siphon or something.

As for Kreia, yeah. But I think I remember you can distinguish a clear pattern during the course of the game. Violence, cruelty, ambition iirc are things she loathes unequivocally. Light side is clear no, yeah.
What I suggest is that she's not actually into the neutral nonsense she promotes. Or rather, not in the way she lets the player imagine (grey jedi stuff). I think I remember that as the game closes to the end, her actual leanings become more obvious.
Thing is, I also remember that depending on the PC stats, you can unlock a tonne of dialogues with her, so maybe it only occurs under this condition. Anyway I'll replay through this, I do recall that I was tickled by this business.

 

[Average Manatee]

Doesn't it work like in kotor I, with a few spells being restricted to one side or the other ? Or maybe using them grants points or something ?

You could unlock any spells, letting you force lightning rooms on end as a fully-light Jedi. I believe the only issue was that power costs were altered, so a full light side would cast light side powers at -50% cost and dark side powers at +100% cost, or something. Only exception was Force Crush and whatever the light equivalent was, which were unlocked at a certain main quest point depending on your path. I don't think remaining grey meant you didn't get either one, I always assumed you had to sort of choose a side and you got the power you chose.

https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic_II:_The_Sith_Lords/Force_powers

Has the force powers. Counterpart to Crush is Enlightenment. Only powers that look to take alignment into account are Crush Opposition (not Force Crush) and Inspire Followers, which are the Full Caster Sith Lord/Jedi Master respective feats and require at least 20% towards their end of the spectrum.

 

[MajorMace]

Ok, I guess I completely forgot that there were no specific unlocks besides these ones.
I don't even think the first game has any unlock then, but it's even foggier and I never felt like replaying it.

I didn't know about cost reduction, I just pick powers from the side I chose like the fucking goddamn larper I am.

 

[Chris Avellone]

That actually reminds me of something about KotOR2. The whole game's about being morally gray and deviating from the standard good/evil stuff, but from my memory the reputation system pretty much forces you to go space jesus or space hitler to get any rewards. That always seemed pretty weird to me.

I've mentioned this before, but it's definitely a disconnect from the Light Side/Dark Side game mechanics, for sure, which while true to the franchise, I didn't like because I feel like they discourage role-playing. Plus, when "power" gains for Light Side/Dark Side are integrated as well, it means you have to go Light Side or Dark Side, so it makes the dialogue system more game-y than it might otherwise be. My other concern (which happens with polarity morality games) is players gravitate toward the extremes in any conversation and don't examine the actual struggle in the dialogue or make a role-playing decision (I feel the Witcher 3 conundrums force me to ask myself what I would do based on limited information, the personality/trustworthiness/faction of the person I'm talking to, etc., and I enjoy that because the consequences aren't fully telegraphed).

(Although I do think sometimes the Witcher 3 doesn't "play fair" b/c sometimes there's clearly holes in conversations you as a player want to ask more about and see as suspicious - esp. Bloody Baron quest - which would shed more light on the situation, but I feel like those are purposely avoided in the list of dialogue responses, in which case, I think they should have removed the hints of something else going on.)

Anyway, the morality bar and playing to the extremes is something we tried to correct in Alpha Protocol, where taking the middle path had rewards, too - one of the keys for the dialogue systems is that a player should gain some sort of benefit from interacting with them based on your role-playing style, not solely evil/good polarity.

KOTOR2 (in addition to the "nature" of Alpha Protocol being a spy game) was also one of the reasons we stripped the idea of a morality bar from the player and just changed it to reputation with individuals/factions/world, which seemed more appropriate... you might do some very nasty public-facing things for the noblest of reasons.

 

[JBro]

Chris Avellone did Josh Sawyer ever yell at you over SJW shit?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Yes, I've been doing work on WL3, and my work incorporates some of the high-level design elements from Fallout: Van Buren (I say "some" because I proposed some elements, and then George made them better, so I feel he rightfully deserves the credit).

Oh COME ON.

I was doing perfectly well not giving a single fuck about inXile or WL3 until I read this.

Pagecount: I'm on page 156 now!

 

[Roguey]

did Josh Sawyer ever yell at you over SJW shit?

It was alluded that Fenstermaker had issues with the way GM/Durance's content was presented that would have required rewrites lest they end up with a firestorm greater than Firedorn.

Rev

It’s been thrown around that objectionable subject matter was the reason behind the cuts. Sexual violence is dealt with elsewhere in the game, and there is swearing all over the place. So there was no looming censor. I don’t want to get into criticism here, but there were some choices that Chris made later in the writing that I thought bore more consideration, and in better circumstances if we’d been able to keep the thread, I’d have liked to discuss a different approach in some specific places. I believe it would have been possible without altering their story or defanging the material. It ended up being beside the point – the easiest cuts to make by far involved that story thread, and so it was left on the cutting room floor.

 

[deepfire]

I thought you were an Aussie, not a Brit. How does one acquire a license to meme?

By filling out Work Permit 4565.32 in triplicate, and then a Development Application 957S in triplicate, and turn up at the local council with three forms of ID totalling 120 points. After that, it is a 6 month process where you will be interviewed, psychologically examined, interviewed another 4 times with different parties with vested interests wherein your work will be accessed to see if it meets standards before your application is kicked up to the Minister for Communications. If he endorses your application, you then have to go through a legitimate work application agent and he will guide you through the rest of the application. Current wait times from filing the first Work Permit to getting the permit is about 2 years and would cost you about $6,400 plus $1,000,000 in a surety bond to ensure your standards do not drop below acceptable level.

Harder, oh please, harder!

 

[deepfire]

I find PoE2 to be rather mediocre

Didn't the Torment-loving bunch expected as much?

We certainly hoped for an incline, but let's get real, should we?