RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[deepfire]

I can apply elements I've learned on RPGs and apply them to new genres

Could you help those of us that Bot an acute imagination arrest here..

Not a role playing game? Not story-heavy? In my primitive mind, this is just a synonym for decline..

After years of lurking, I’ve decided to join and post. Took me a while.

I read the whole topic and

I bow to your persistence, gentleman!

 

[deepfire]

I don't think silence helps much, and often those who benefit most by it use that silence as a shield (both to their employees and among themselves). There's a reason Obsidian employees aren't speaking out, positively or negatively, despite the fact it would debunk a lot of debates in the future, as they don't know the whole picture (I didn't while working at Interplay, for example) and they've most likely been ordered not to respond. Partly it's to not draw attention to it so discussion dies, and partly it's to control the flow of information from spreading. I will say when Eric spoke out, that was able to confirm that neither he or I agreed the process was correct, it raised more issues Eric was frustrated about (which were new), but then I was able to answer as well - which I think is a good thing all around.

Thank you Eric Fenstermaker!

Organisations are inherently more powerful than individuals. This often hurts.

 

[deepfire]

For example, some publishers can detect when a developer has no leverage, for sure, and exploit that (again, that's good business, unfortunately, so that's why it's best not to be in that position and be in the position to say, "no").

I love you, Chris Avellone..

 

[set]

I find PoE2 to be rather mediocre

Didn't the Torment-loving bunch expected as much?

We certainly hoped for an incline, but let's get real, should we?

I mean, up until reading some of what Chris posted, I was in a mental state where I felt morally obligated to buy Obsidian games. They're like, quite literally, the last studio that's not "indie" making real honest to god RPGs. What am I supposed to do? You can take your chances buying a game, but if not buying a game means there are no games left... And I did kickstart PoE1. And while it wasn't perfect, Durance and a few other elements of the game were enjoyable - so I had this naive thought that a sequel might somehow iterate on the experience and come out stronger.

RPGs are in such a sad state - people abuse the mechanics, putting XP bars in everything. World of Warcraft-ification was bad enough for RPGs... I mean it was bad enough we had shit like Dragon Age 2 or Diablo 3 happen-- but the middle of the road studio has died, completely, what few middle market RPGs are still made are simply terrible. The last one I tried was that stupid Mars-centered one. I forget what it was called, but it was just terrible.

I didn't used to think Alpha Protocol was that good. I mean, my initial playthrough I remember being dissatisfied with, but now I'm up to playthrough number five. Is it that my standards have dropped? Or am I just appreciating all the little details chunked into the game? I feel like if AP had been balanced on launch, and if it had had a little more polish, it would have been an instant classic. Or maybe I'm so starved of genuine RPGs at this point I'm just settling for what's left. I started another playthrough of BG1, which I thought I was over and dead with, but I actually enjoyed my time with it. Beamdog's dumb version, even.

RPGs are expensive to make, hard to make, and hard to "extra monetize" and also "hard to make replayable for the general audience" that they're just not attractive to any devs but die-hards and indies. The latter can't make RPGs though, overall. The best showing is Harebrained, plus or minus stuff like Dwarf Fortress (adventure mode is pretty insanely detailed if you can get past how difficult it is to initially navigate conversations)-- Liberal Crime Squad, if it had "modern graphics" would be... I swear, it would be infamously famous. I wish I was an oil tycoon who could fund that dream.

I thought to myself the other day... "What if Jade Empire came out tomorrow? Would I hail it as incline?" I consider JE to be pretty mediocre if somewhat enjoyable. But if it came out tomorrow I'd probably sing its praises like a drunken fanboy. And if BioWare, in its Zombine-like state, announced it were producing a sequel to JE (instead of making a lootbox Destiny knockoff), I could actually get a little hyped. In spite of the fact I know nothing could ever come from EA that's remotely playable these days. That ship sailed with Spore in 2008.

Path of Exile is my favorite ARPG. It took the developers 5 years to reach "somewhat mainstream status" after a 2 year beta. Which came after 5+ years of pre-development eating toast in a garage down in NZ, where wages are 1/11th of the US's. How the hell do you make it in this industry. I'm a programmer - and you literally...could pay me enough to work on games...but not in the conditions and wages the industry currently presents. I don't see it improving either.

 

[DiverNB]

Hi Chris,

Question. I am finally playing through Pillars of Eternity and enjoying it after first putting it down a few years ago. Both Durance and Grieving Mother seem so personally tied to large events in the lore. When you were writing for these characters, did you receive blow-back for writing them as such? Because they are so deeply inserted into the established lore the player is hit with right off the bat? How did the ideas come to you? The other companions are so boring, but these two really make you think about Eothas and the GodHammer, as well as what it means to be a watcher. I wonder if you saw these lore elements first, and then created these characters, or the other way around?
Thank!

(PS, KotOR2 and Alpha Protocol are personal favorites of mine. Especially AP. Did you write in AP?)

 

[Crescent Hawk]

Actually those French spider devs are getting better, and bound by flame was pretty fucking decent. I expect them to get even better.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Ooh, speaking of Spiders... Chris Avellone do you have any opinions about their Gallic RPGs, like The Technomancer? They have a new game coming out soon, Greedfall, that looks interesting.

And the CEO of Spiders, Jehanne Rousseau, is the most adorable cosplayer in all the land.

Although this may just be a hip outfit with a quirky paramilitary haircut.


Would you ever work with this kind of B-tier studio or do you think you’re outside of their price range?

 

[Bigg Boss]

deepfire learn how to edit your posts you quadruple posting dick.

 

[MajorMace]

Although this may just be a hip outfit

If they're in Paris, it's not even hip, it's kinda the norm.
Fuckers dress fancy there.

 

[Goral]

deepfire learn how to edit your posts you quadruple posting dick.

Learn to count, he's a "quintuple posting dick" not "quadruple posting dick".

 

[Bigg Boss]

deepfire learn how to edit your posts you quadruple posting dick.

Learn to count, he's a "quintuple posting dick" not "quadruple posting dick".

I guessed the number instead of counting. I fail at math.

 

[Roguey]

Would you ever work with this kind of B-tier studio or do you think you’re outside of their price range?

Earlier he said he's working with a lot of companies outside the US because they're more experimental.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Would you ever work with this kind of B-tier studio or do you think you’re outside of their price range?

Earlier he said he's working with a lot of companies outside the US because they're more experimental.

If he’s experimenting with Jehanne I hope he’s taking pictures.

Edit: because her cosplay is so creative and not to be missed, of course!

 

[set]

Actually those French spider devs are getting better, and bound by flame was pretty fucking decent. I expect them to get even better.

Bound By Flame was almost playable, I'll give you that much. It could have been good, had it stronger writing or gameplay, but I felt it was lacking in both areas.


I also wanted to point out that...there is that stupid site https://www.masterclass.com/ that spams me with youtube ads all the time. If they had Chris do a writing workshop there though...I'd buy. I'm not saying he should partner with them (if that were even possible), just that, there are other options out there for him, too! I'd pay to learn how to not write dialogue like shit from Chris.

 

[Lhynn]

Bound by flame had great gameplay. Very skill based. The writing was alright. Generic as fuck but that was the aim.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

Hey I mentioned them, not trying to be hipsterish or puling for the underdog, but because although they have their faults, you can tell they started low as shit but have the imagination to pull it off. Mars Logs is a disaster, but a nice disaster as one of their first games but even one that was making me wonder about the setting.
Hated reviewers panning them when they were making their shit on a 1\1000000000000 of the budget triple A does.

And I like what I am seeing from Europe, and I fucking hoped the US got a bit of their middle market as well.

Greedfall may be still be shit, but I can always hope.

 

[Lhynn]

abnaxus

Bound by flame had great gameplay. Very skill based. The writing was alright. Generic as fuck but that was the aim.

 

[ga♥]

MCA already said that he worked on FTL for free so...

 

[Chris Avellone]

Hi Chris,

Question. I am finally playing through Pillars of Eternity and enjoying it after first putting it down a few years ago. Both Durance and Grieving Mother seem so personally tied to large events in the lore. When you were writing for these characters, did you receive blow-back for writing them as such? Because they are so deeply inserted into the established lore the player is hit with right off the bat? How did the ideas come to you? The other companions are so boring, but these two really make you think about Eothas and the GodHammer, as well as what it means to be a watcher. I wonder if you saw these lore elements first, and then created these characters, or the other way around?
Thanks!

I researched the lore first, and then built the characters on top of that and tied the core story points that needed a foundation into the two companions. This included: showing gods are important to people, showing some people really take the gods thing too far (which will suggest more problems if the gods go away, which may make you hesitate before murdering any more gods like Durance tried to do), reinforcing Eothas and "heresy," and also giving a more personal viewpoint on the Hollowborn crisis in the party (GM) and how it personally affected someone as a result. Since the Hollowborn crisis was the principal threat of the game (to the world's view), I felt it needed a "face" on the human side to speak to it - even if the GM wasn't the best representation of that, I thought it was worth an attempt. I think part of the reason her presentation doesn't go as well as it should is she was also supposed to speak to what a "cipher" meant and what their lives could be like, since it was a new class for the game and unique to Pillars, so she ended up being stranger than maybe she needed to be with her telepathy.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Earlier he said he's working with a lot of companies outside the US because they're more experimental.

What Roguey said. They take different approaches to games than in the U.S. (and a number of them do things far better than the more traditional developers and publishers do).

I also get a chance to deep-dive into learning new lore and mythology (or modern culture) if their games are also set in the same countries the game is set in, which is cool.

Also, Kyl Von Kull, I don't consider studios "B-tiers" or any tiers - what I've found is a smaller studio doing less but focusing their efforts often has a better chance of turning out a better quality game than an AAA publisher/developer, it just may not get as much notice (and may still struggle with getting good QA). This is the reason I work with indies like Subset and others - they don't try to do everything and the kitchen sink, they focus on a certain mechanic/gameplay loop until it feels right. I'm generally there just b/c the gameplay or premise sounds interesting and/or I can learn something from it that I think would improve my writing or design skills.

The quality game issue isn't the case with every small developer, of course, but still, I've seen smaller studios make games that are just as much fun if not more than an AAA title, easily.

 

[ScrotumBroth]

Hey Mr Avellone,

Given an opportunity to be a Lead again, do you have a game idea or a story in mind to tell?

If so, in what world setting would it be?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Chris Avellone, take it up with Spiders’ publisher, Focus Home Interactive. B grade is their characterization:

”This sector is indeed on a roll,” says Cédric Lagarrigue, Focus Home Interactive’s CEO. “The most popular games on PC are often 'B-grade' games. A glance on Steam lets us to see that. There's less of them on consoles as the barriers to enter are rather high, and the market is very structured with few releases per week, mostly blockbusters. However, this trend is changing, notably thanks to digitalisation. This is akin to cinema – the audience needs diversity, they will not only go watch super hero flicks or Star Wars movies. They also need to go watch Get Out, It, or La La Land.””

http://m.ign.com/articles/2018/04/23/the-technomancer-and-the-rise-of-b-grade-games

Anyway, you’re preaching to the choir. If you do work with Ms. Rousseau, I think we’d all like to see you get in on the costume action.

 

[Hirato]

I must say, I've gained a lot more respect for Chris over the duration of this thread.
It's not easy to do the right thing in a world like ours where no good deed goes unpunished.

I also love that he keeps calling infinitron out on his shit, it's hilarious and more than well deserved.




So Chris, whatever happened to Fallout: New Orleans?
Is there something in the works somewhere, or is it just a pipe dream from the rumour mill?

 

[Cael]

I also love that he keeps calling infinitron out on his shit, it's hilarious and more than well deserved.

It is, but at the same time, I couldn't help but feel like we are beating on a guy who was let down by his parents in that he never learnt manners, maturity, humility and compassion from those who should have taught him those virtues. His much vaunted Ultima fanfic is a testament to his mental state and it seems that, more than 10 years later, he still has not progressed past that loser stage.

Sometimes, calling shillarytron out on his asshattery is like kicking a Down's Syndrome kid for being mentally incapable.

And then I give myself a slap for being a fool.

Fire away, Chris. Fire away!

 

[Mr. Hiver]

My other concern (which happens with polarity morality games) is players gravitate toward the extremes in any conversation and don't examine the actual struggle in the dialogue or make a role-playing decision (I feel the Witcher 3 conundrums force me to ask myself what I would do based on limited information, the personality/trustworthiness/faction of the person I'm talking to, etc., and I enjoy that because the consequences aren't fully telegraphed).

(Although I do think sometimes the Witcher 3 doesn't "play fair" b/c sometimes there's clearly holes in conversations you as a player want to ask more about and see as suspicious - esp. Bloody Baron quest - which would shed more light on the situation, but I feel like those are purposely avoided in the list of dialogue responses, in which case, I think they should have removed the hints of something else going on.)

The writing in Witcher 3 did have some avoidance of responses and questions but it was never too much. It was mostly done to keep some secondary plot details a secret a bit longer for an eventual payoff.
And the payoff was usually so good it was worth getting over a few deflections.
I also appreciated not getting half a dozen of "different" replies which mean nothing, especially after seeing how badly it is done in Pillars of Deadfire. It made sense for an established character such as Geralt is, as well as the setting.

In case of the Bloody Baron quest those issues weren't really important. It wasnt a quest about harsh and violent family dysfunction, thats was just the lead into the actual quest and a connecting line to the Crones.

The actual meat of the matter, the actual eventual payoff was - doing what Witchers are supposed to be doing.
And that is not the fancy sword spinning or merking monsters left and right with signs.

The real thing, the very core of feeling what is to be a Witcher, is that moment when you tell Baron to order everyone hide and dont come out for the whole night.
And Geralt kneels down to bury an undead baby and name her, then keeps watch, eyes glowing in the dark, while the storm and lightning flash overhead.

And the moments when you find Geralt (and yourself) alone in the middle of the night, everyone else hidden in their homes covering in terror, and you stare at the little floating dead baby thinking... "Wait... im supposed to do what? Is this... for real?" And then you go running after a flying dead baby as it floats through the night over fields and roads, eyes wide open in wonder.
Thats... proper Witchery.

Anyway, the morality bar and playing to the extremes is something we tried to correct in Alpha Protocol, where taking the middle path had rewards, too - one of the keys for the dialogue systems is that a player should gain some sort of benefit from interacting with them based on your role-playing style, not solely evil/good polarity.

I feel that introducing a "middle path" doesnt work in such games that have such extreme binary separation of good and evil, as it only becomes a third extreme, as unrealistic and unattainable as the other two.
It doesnt really correct the problem, but just adds another one.

I think the proper path is to start without such extreme separation, and i think Witchers best quests did just that. The good and evil are still there, occasionally, but its not what everything is reduced to.