RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Prime Junta]

How is it possible to own shares and "get nothing" when you leave the company you owned shares in? Or you didn't own shares in the first place? Then what is behind "co-owner", what do you own? Or was this false as well?

Can happen if somebody unethical tricks you into signing a really unfair shareholder agreement. All it takes is a clause like "if the shareholder stops working for the Company, his shares return to the Company at the original price at which they were acquired." There is usually a clause like this in SHAs, but in all sane cases it's time limited. The idea is to put a nice golden ball and chain on the founders until the company is nicely up and running, so they don't up sticks and leave six months into the exercise and then reap the benefits of everybody else's hard work. Three years is normal. Five years, sometimes. But Chris was at Obsidian much longer than that, so this is seriously uncool.

 

[mbv123]

Posting in a legendary thread

 

[Bohr]

Need updated version

Spoiler

 

[Infinitron]

How is it possible to own shares and "get nothing" when you leave the company you owned shares in? Or you didn't own shares in the first place? Then what is behind "co-owner", what do you own? Or was this false as well?

Can happen if somebody unethical tricks you into signing a really unfair shareholder agreement. All it takes is a clause like "if the shareholder stops working for the Company, his shares return to the Company at the original price at which they were acquired." There is usually a clause like this in SHAs, but in all sane cases it's time limited. The idea is to put a nice golden ball and chain on the founders until the company is nicely up and running, so they don't up sticks and leave six months into the exercise and then reap the benefits of everybody else's hard work. Three years is normal. Five years, sometimes. But Chris was at Obsidian much longer than that, so this is seriously uncool.

Possible scenario: Young man Chris Avellone co-founds Obsidian in 2003 as a minor shareholder. Doesn't look too closely at the fine print. Expects a handsome payday (millions?) when he leaves in 2015, but doesn't get the kind of sum he expected. Disputes the contract, ends up getting nothing.

 

[Molina]

Well, it's was a shitty contract. It doen't happen in a country with a labour code and a public health insurance, like in Europe.

 

[frajaq]

Chris go sleep my man

 

[2house2fly]

does anyone else find it significant that he changed his avatar to darth nihlus?

To be really thematically fitting he should change it to Ulysses

 

[Tacgnol]

How is it possible to own shares and "get nothing" when you leave the company you owned shares in? Or you didn't own shares in the first place? Then what is behind "co-owner", what do you own? Or was this false as well?

Can happen if somebody unethical tricks you into signing a really unfair shareholder agreement. All it takes is a clause like "if the shareholder stops working for the Company, his shares return to the Company at the original price at which they were acquired." There is usually a clause like this in SHAs, but in all sane cases it's time limited. The idea is to put a nice golden ball and chain on the founders until the company is nicely up and running, so they don't up sticks and leave six months into the exercise and then reap the benefits of everybody else's hard work. Three years is normal. Five years, sometimes. But Chris was at Obsidian much longer than that, so this is seriously uncool.

Possible scenario: Young man Chris Avellone co-founds Obsidian in 2003 as a minor shareholder. Doesn't look too closely at the fine print. Expects a handsome payday (millions?) when he leaves in 2015, but doesn't get the kind of sum he expected. Disputes the contract, ends up getting nothing.

Goes well with his advice on twitter about getting lawyers to check things.

 

[ArchAngel]

Good question – most employees won’t ever speak to this, because they sign an NDA to that effect. I didn’t.

Why there was an apparent illusion that you couldn't talk about stuff because of something/NDA then? As Fairfax reported/implied(can't recall atm) many times. Have you been waiting for some bridge repairs/genuine olive branches/kiss on the lips from Sawyer?

Also have you been drinking today?

Maybe he was waiting for someone to hack his account :D

 

[Iskramor]

BEST THREAD EVER this shitstorm is better than anything obsidian created since dead money

Dead money is shitshow of power ranger-esque alpha strike holograms and loud siren megaphone alarms.

 

[2house2fly]

Being a practical sort, these days I think less of Planescape: Torment and more of the Fallout: New Vegas DLCs. Thoroughly Avellonesque, but small and eminently doable. Surely he could create games like that without embarking on the dreaded death march.

I could if there weren't so many horrible catastrophic problems to fix from the New Vegas core game... which we tried to allocate resources to fix because it was everyone's (pls don't let go everyone who's done an amazing job for us) interest for not finishing the issues in the FNV core game. I am forever grateful to them.

Both barrels! Boom!

 

[Zero Credibility]

Wow, this thread is certainly going places.

Also, that agreement preventing someone from working in their field - those actually exist and are legal? Somehow I always thought those were a myth.

 

[2house2fly]

Well...

https://techraptor.net/content/chris-avellone-talks-departure-obsidian-entertainment

I'm just waiting to see which "news sites" have the balls to feature the interview out of fear Obsidian will ostracize them.

Obsidian is hardly a powerhouse in the industry. What are they going to do, refuse to send out review codes for their next smash hit which is called, uhh

 

[Iskramor]

Oh, Infinitron, the joke is simple: That you report the news, as your unfortunate profile tag claims, which always make me wince when I see your claim. C'mon, don't be ridiculous. You are so biased, we can't even see you through the glare, but embrace it: It's part of your charm.

EDIT: I really mean this. I love Infinitron's comments, but it's not news, it's just... Infinitron. Change your profile tag, bud.

Infinitron is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a Jew, shill, sellout, paperboy, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him biased and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I've been found out."

Goebbels till death biach

 

[ArchAngel]

Being a practical sort, these days I think less of Planescape: Torment and more of the Fallout: New Vegas DLCs. Thoroughly Avellonesque, but small and eminently doable. Surely he could create games like that without embarking on the dreaded death march.

I could if there weren't so many horrible catastrophic problems to fix from the New Vegas core game... which we tried to allocate resources to fix because it was everyone's (pls don't let go everyone who's done an amazing job for us) interest for not finishing the issues in the FNV core game. I am forever grateful to them.

Both barrels! Boom!

Yea this sounds like he is shitting on Bethesda's Fallout 3 as well :D

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I'm sure with his credentials, as well as how extreme Obsidians upper managements abuse against him was, most companies will see why he complained. It's one thing to badmouth former employers, it's another matter entirely when your employers go out of their way to fuck with you to such an egregious degree.

I dunno, my man. People in the management and HR positions are their own belligerent little tribe, especially in the gaming industry. I've seen a few careers tank just because people were making waves.
Of course, none of them were even close to Avellone's caliber, so quod licet iovi and all that. Well, whatever happens next, I sure hope this shitstorm in a teacup won't affect Chris negatively.

For me the question still revolves around this:
My reading is that the "job descriptions mean nothing" mentality was applying as far up the chain as the co-owners, and the actual hierarchy of power and decision making didn't match anything that was on paper. There is no other explanation for me, with the little knowledge I have, of why a co-owner would be so powerless as to have to explain himself to another co-owner and be overruled on his decisions of organizing the work process in his own department - narrative.

Yes, this is a very interesting question.

Have faith, some teacups are made of steel.

 

[2house2fly]

Being a practical sort, these days I think less of Planescape: Torment and more of the Fallout: New Vegas DLCs. Thoroughly Avellonesque, but small and eminently doable. Surely he could create games like that without embarking on the dreaded death march.

I could if there weren't so many horrible catastrophic problems to fix from the New Vegas core game... which we tried to allocate resources to fix because it was everyone's (pls don't let go everyone who's done an amazing job for us) interest for not finishing the issues in the FNV core game. I am forever grateful to them.

Both barrels! Boom!

Yea this sounds like he is shitting on Bethesda's Fallout 3 as well :D

Oh no way, he's just shitting on the New Vegas development process; he's said before they prioritised content and meeting deadlines over polish which further hurt Obsidian's reputation, and he considers it the worst Fallout game.

 

[Quillon]

Reading Chris Avellone's comments about the Gonzales/Fenstermaker beef

Oh, it was apparently beyond the beef... ba dum tss.

 

[Zakhad]

Since I might as well get my heart ripped out completely... Chris Avellone, would you be so kind as to tell us once and for all, was Sawyer too one of the bad guys?

He continuously fails to name him. So I'm guessing Chris thinks he is, since all he'd have to say was "sawyer was cool" twenty pages ago and he could have ended the ongoing speculation. As it is, mentioning Josh repeatedly without naming is a way of drawing attention to him (almost a kind of praeteritio)

 

[SpurdoSparde]

Also, that agreement preventing someone from working in their field - those actually exist and are legal? Somehow I always thought those were a myth.

Non-compete agreements are legal within reasonable boundaries. I don't know about the US specifically but the limitations are usually that the definition can't be too broad and the timeframe has to be proportional with the compensation given for signing the agreement.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I noticed that the forums that were giving this thread the cold shoulder are begining to understand the gravity of Avellone's revelations. If 10% of what he said is true, it is already enough to damage Obsidian's name badly. But more importantly, you can bet that there are developers and game journalists talking about this behind the scenes. This is not going to end anytime soon. This shit gets out really fast.

 

[Roguey]

While entertaining, a listing of Fenstermaker's many follies doesn't seem pertinent..? The guy acknowledges he's messed up, and going into detail in public comes across as lashing out because his feathers are obviously ruffled. Really now, an explanation for how "Chris wrote too much" shouldn't be pinned all on Chris is enough.

 

[2house2fly]

Citation Needed

I don't know, it was some interview he did here like a year ago. He pretty much implied that the Project Lead cared more about getting a product out of the door on time than delivering something high quality. He also said the role-playing was inferior to Fallout 2 and the 3D World exploration was inferior to Fallout 3. Unless you think he considers it better than Fallout 1 on some metric, the inference that New Vegas is the worst Fallout game is pretty easy to make

 

[2house2fly]

I don't remember the details very well, but I remember that interview overall because it stung that the man behind some of my favorite games was asked what his favorite obsidian game was and couldn't bring himself to say a single positive word about any of them

 

[Quillon]

Just remembered Gonzalez's GDC talk, where Efens and Travis Stout(IIRC) was sitting next to him, talking very little. Must have been hard for Efens.