RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Riddler]

(snip the rest)

Thanks for a very candid answer. So basically you had the rug yanked out from under you by Feargus. That's some seriously bad management. If it happened eight years into the exercise though it does seem like things had gone awry much earlier, manifested as that fan favourite, "lack of communication." Did you ever get along well with him or the other founders? If this is how things work at Obsidian I don't blame you at all for leaving; if anything it's remarkable you stuck it out as long as you did.

But I do think you're being too hard on Eric for not being able to change things where you also failed.

One thing that strikes me about your answer is that it sounds really top down. Expectations for roles are crucial of course -- that's what a role is, at the heart of it; a set of expectations you need to live up to; without expectations it's just an empty title.

My experience with getting process changes to bite though is that it works really badly from the top down. I always start with a single scrum team: four to ten people collaborating on some particular, concrete thing. We establish who's going to be the scrum master, work out the basic nitty-gritty of daily work -- coding standards, how to use the process tools like source control and issue tracking to stay in sync and up to date with what everybody's doing, whether and how we're going to apply code reviews to enforce the standards, what exactly is going to happen in the scrum and how long it's going to take -- and then get that to actually work on the ground, so people just do it without thinking about it. Once that foundation is laid, we can move up to the sprint level and establish what the roles at that level are supposed to do. And once that's working, up another level, however many levels are needed. In my experience it really doesn't do much to establish the responsibilities of a product owner, lead designer, QA lead, or any of the other slots that need filling until you've got that fundamental thing running -- and once you do, defining those roles becomes pretty easy; it doesn't quite happen by itself but it's more of a gardening/steering thing than drawing up boxes.

Moreover, this way a lot -- not all, mind, but a lot! -- of the hierarchy just withers away. The scrum teams will be able to resolve a lot of problems and conflicts before they even become issues, without having to go to a superior to make a call on it. And it's specifically this kind of structured yet flexible environment that brings out the best in people, makes them do more than just the minimum. Conversely, a top-down management culture will get people just to tick the boxes -- at least people who aren't exceptionally driven internally, and those people tend not to thrive in hierarchical, top-down environments unless they happen to sit at or near the top of the totem pole.

First off, I'm glad you said Scrum and not Agile development.

I don’t blame Eric for not being able to change any of these things – I do think he provided guidance to a lot of new Eternity writers, and we did work to accommodate him after New Vegas.

But before you think I’m being overly magnanimous, Eric absolutely drove away a lot of talented writers (esp. John Gonzalez – Shadow over Mordor, Horizon Zero Dawn), although John likely wouldn’t ever admit to the fact that Eric hated him; also, we were forced to isolate Eric from John’s Lead Writer responsibilities (which was a failure on our part, but I wasn’t in charge of New Vegas, which had a lot of inner development conflicts across the board).

Even more after John left, we actually changed our hiring procedure to cater to Eric on Eternity, since we knew if he didn’t approve of a writer, you might as well set a torch any writer that worked with him.

Overall, I thought John was a great writer.

When I talked to Eric about the perspectives on John (since no one else had), his solution was, “let’s just divide New Vegas tasks so John and I never have to interact with each other,” which was like, that moment where all the sound evaporates from the room and all you see is the other person’s lips moving, but you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge what they’re saying. I mean, the person you're denouncing - he’s your Lead. He’s a good writer. So are you. Try to meet in the middle. But – no, that was not to be.

Despite the situation, John turned in his notice (which also broke me a little more) and went on to bigger and better things – Mordor, Horizon: Zero Dawn. Kudos to him, but a huge loss for Obsidian in writing talent (much like George Ziets and Travis Stout). All could have been prevented, imo.

FFS man! Stop burning bridges in public!

This cannot possibly be viewed in a positive light by any prospective employer. Get off the internet for the day!

 

[Chris Avellone]

Well, this is a first.

I'm not a hater, Avellone. I've said several times that you were an order of magnitude more talented than other writers, including the other writers at Obsidian typically considered "good". I do feel compelled to push back against groupthink - sorry if that ruins something for you.

Monty Markland did something similar to this to inXile not long ago. He seemed unwell and disappeared shortly thereafter, I hope you aren't.

Imo, you have never been a hater, I'm just giving you shit because of "I post news" on your profile. It's all good. We should do shots.

I am not more talented than many of the writers at Obsidian/were at Obsidian, much less so. And yes, you can quote me.

I can't speak to Monty beyond he was absolutely right to resign after Aliens got the toilet flush.

 

[skacky]

Oh damn, Avellone throwing some shade.

It really is charming. I refuse to back away from my stance. If you take anything, don't take my Infinitron.

 

[Brancaleone]

I do feel compelled to push back against groupthink

The chutzpah.

 

[Prime Junta]

I am not more talented than many of the writers at Obsidian/were at Obsidian, much less so. And yes, you can quote me.

Aw cut the bullshit already. You made Planescape: Torment for fucks sake. You turned a game that was supposed to be about hitting goblins in the neck with sharp objects into a meditation on mortality, personhood, and enlightenment. Nobody has done that before or since, and it's taken nineteen years before a serious contender even appears on the scene. You're a fucking once-in-a-generation genius. Now own it and make another thing that makes the world a more beautiful and meaningful place.

 

[felipepepe]

Well, since we're on blunt honesty day, I'll ask: Chris, are you satisfied with how Wasteland 2 & Tides of Numanuma turned out?

 

[TT1]

mcд wдŞ hдckΞd by king ؃ ŞymbØĿŞ

 

[Infinitron]

I can't speak to Monty beyond he was absolutely right to resign after Aliens got the toilet flush.

Well since you're in the right kind of mood, the fun begins here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ith-monty-markland.120041/page-3#post-5450789

Wonder if we ever get one of these for Larian someday and complete the trifecta.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

It's not really like he is in a position of power here, he is a freelancer depending on his good name to get work. Shitting on previous employers in an untruthful manner just prior to an important release is not conductive to getting more freelance work...

He is one of the most respected cRPG developers in the industry, my friend. The man is literally a kickstarter goal. Just imagine that: "Hey guys, we can't hire Chris to participate in our game no more. If we cut his health plan when his mother is dying of cancer, cook the books, harass employees, he will be a loudmouth". That sounds implausible, to say the least.

 

[whocares]

I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.

 

[AwesomeButton]

But - I was told 8 years into the process that this was irrelevant, and that what guidelines I established for designers and lead designers (of every category) wasn’t worthwhile – this was conveyed to me by Feargus. As he told me, giving expectations for every position was, in fact, wrong. Feargus doesn’t give expectations to his producers - nor should we in other departments, as owners. I didn’t have a good response to this at first because I was genuinely shocked

So – to say it, and I covered this in presentations on hiring: I don’t believe “people only do the littlest required” if you’ve hired the right people and plus, assigning roles and responsibilities solves a lot of problems before they become problems. I did feel I was alone in this aspect, but it seemed self-evident to me - give people the title, the responsibility, and the least of your expectations, and good people will do amazing things beyond anything you could dictate to them.

This is like describing the situation in the company where I work. The notable thing is that you kicked back against the shit and actually left. Most people would just suffer.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Eric did apologize for how he handled the situation, it is true (and more than once), and there’s mistakes everyone makes when being a Lead. I made worse mistakes than Eric for sure – and saying Eric made mistakes is not an insult. There is no “but” or “however” in this statement.

I only had an issue with the process, and Eric admitted he did as well – and he told me himself after my departure that the Project Director was the reason the process didn’t work as Eric intended (and would have been correct for a Creative Lead in my eyes). If that was incorrect, that’s fine, but that’s what he told me at the time.

I will say that I did the fixes as quickly and cleanly as possible, and I could have done them much faster had a gotten a critique direct from the source. Instead, there was meeting after meeting where I said the same thing and we had to discuss things that really, none of us needed to discuss (I was happy to make the cuts). My only issue was the process, and it's not personal.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that the process issue was larger than it appears – what work I put into PoE wasn’t gained back when I went back to Tyranny, so any decision made on PoE (for example, assistance that was promised in implementing the characters) that was then retracted, it cost more and more time overall. I’m not bitter about this because that simply was the norm. I did not have time to work on both projects, but that is a failure of upper management and scheduling/double-timing two projects. That said, the employees from Tyranny did work hard to make the work they did for Pillars shine. Don’t take this as I’m angry that Pillars took time from Tyranny, or that Tyranny was my personal project (it wasn’t, Brian Heins was the PD), it just was something that I knew the team would pay for and it wouldn’t be given back, which turned out to be the case because again, that was the norm.

I don’t know why Eric left Obsidian, nor do I mean to draw a connection between Josh’s review of the Eric’s performance and the storyline process, the amount of control he wanted in the process, and Eric’s departure. I still think it is good Eric left/went contracting. If the two weren’t related, that’s ideal.

I can't recall who said this in this thread, but for the record, I would resist anyone's attempts to downplay the work Eric did on South Park – he did quite a bit, and shouldn’t be dismissed, and it was Creative Lead work (it’s also one of the reasons I don’t equate Creative Lead = the person who wrote the story). Both Eric’s boss and I did fight to get him Lead credit on South Park, which he deserved, since he was doing the job. His duties on South Park were also part of the reason we recommended he not be Creative Lead on Eternity.

Its strongly implied that he can't due to an NDA that he had to sign to get 'his share' back. I suppose that is one of the reasons why you get little tidbits here and there.

I didn’t get anything when I left Obsidian. There were no share payouts, no equity, and this was in addition to the other logistical problems around the departure – the sudden cancellation of my health insurance, problems with my 401K, errors in Obsidian’s accounting, and several existing independent contracts they refused to uphold.

Realizing my family issues and the debts therein, however, they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs, and my silence on all issues that could pertain to Obsidian or any other company they were involved with or the CEO had a % in (Fig, Zero Radius, Dark Rock Industries, etc.). This included an inability to critique games I’d worked on – much of my critiques on my own games tend to be blunt, and not being able to speak to them felt unnatural to me.

The company involvement silence worried me more, however, as it meant that if anything illegal happened with any of those companies (these could include serious charges like accounting issues, silence on harassment issues with regards to employees, perjury related to company documents and payments), I couldn’t speak about the issue, even if I felt strongly against what was being revealed.

While all this is good for Obsidian's upper management and is what is sometimes considered "good business," I did feel it showed a lack of ethics.

Still, that attempt at leverage did cause me to re-evaluate aspects of my life. Realizing debt was affecting my decision, I instead focused on working as hard as possible to make up for the amount Obsidian tried to use as leverage to force a signature – and succeeded.

When that happened, I realized I was free of the situation – completely free, for the first time. Feargus and the owners had no hold on my voice, my time, and my creativity any longer. And it was great.

When they made me an offer to contract me to write for Tyranny (which might seem to be an olive branch, but it turned out to be something they needed for contractual reasons with Paradox, but no one had ever communicated it to me), these were the reasons I refused – I didn’t wish to be part of Obsidian’s upper level development process and their pipelines any longer, as these processes were coming from a bad place, and it showed.

Also, realizing there was no restitution for the issues mentioned, I made a promise to myself that nothing I would do would ever cause Feargus and the owners any further financial gain. If my silence was that important to them, then there's no need to be silent because that right hadn't been signed away. Simply put, I like the developers at Obsidian very much, I work and correspond with many of those who are there or have left, and I would work with the developers again. I do feel upper management at Obsidian has serious flaws that need to be addressed, and I stand by that statement.

WOW. FagAss Cuck Hard is a real asshoke and snowflake. and the interview+this post sheds a lot of light on obsidian for my questions.

Chris Avellone I am sorry for being a bitter mean edgy asshole to you in your thread.

Still waiting for another magnum opus PST types work from you (and i will be waiting a long long time ). but now that you are free, u have some hope.

 

[ColonelTeacup]

I am not more talented than many of the writers at Obsidian/were at Obsidian, much less so. And yes, you can quote me.

Aw cut the bullshit already. You made Planescape: Torment for fucks sake. You turned a game that was supposed to be about hitting goblins in the neck with sharp objects into a meditation on mortality, personhood, and enlightenment. Nobody has done that before or since, and it's taken nineteen years before a serious contender even appears on the scene. You're a fucking once-in-a-generation genius. Now own it and make another thing that makes the world a more beautiful and meaningful place.

And Dead Money. My favorite setting in any videogame i've played.

 

[Prime Junta]

I am not more talented than many of the writers at Obsidian/were at Obsidian, much less so. And yes, you can quote me.

Aw cut the bullshit already. You made Planescape: Torment for fucks sake. You turned a game that was supposed to be about hitting goblins in the neck with sharp objects into a meditation on mortality, personhood, and enlightenment. Nobody has done that before or since, and it's taken nineteen years before a serious contender even appears on the scene. You're a fucking once-in-a-generation genius. Now own it and make another thing that makes the world a more beautiful and meaningful place.

And Dead Money. My favorite setting in any videogame i've played.

And a whole bunch of other things. But PS:T is the game that blew the genre wide open, showed what you can really do with the medium.

 

[whydoibother]

You made Planescape: Torment for fucks sake. You turned a game that was supposed to be about hitting goblins in the neck with sharp objects into a meditation on mortality, personhood, and enlightenment. Nobody has done that before or since, and it's taken nineteen years before a serious contender even appears on the scene. You're a fucking once-in-a-generation genius. Now own it and make another thing that makes the world a more beautiful and meaningful place.

I dislike fake humility as much as you, but there appears to have been other writers on that project. Also the Planescape campaign was obviously pre-existing, Chris didn't write it from scratch.
That said the cult of Avellone exists for a good reason, even if it gets absurd at times. He is a good writer and I like the characters and plots he makes. I won't forgive him all the teasing, but I understand. I understand, Chris.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I didn’t get anything when I left Obsidian. There were no share payouts, no equity, and this was in addition to the other logistical problems around the departure – the sudden cancellation of my health insurance, problems with my 401K, errors in Obsidian’s accounting, and several existing independent contracts they refused to uphold.

Realizing my family issues and the debts therein, however, they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs, and my silence on all issues that could pertain to Obsidian or any other company they were involved with or the CEO had a % in (Fig, Zero Radius, Dark Rock Industries, etc.). This included an inability to critique games I’d worked on – much of my critiques on my own games tend to be blunt, and not being able to speak to them felt unnatural to me.

The company involvement silence worried me more, however, as it meant that if anything illegal happened with any of those companies (these could include serious charges like accounting issues, silence on harassment issues with regards to employees, perjury related to company documents and payments), I couldn’t speak about the issue, even if I felt strongly against what was being revealed.

While all this is good for Obsidian's upper management and is what is sometimes considered "good business," I did feel it showed a lack of ethics.

Mindboggling. That's not just a lack of ethics, that's absolutely disgusting. Proves exactly whom you're dealing with, complete scum, absolutely bottom of the barrel human trash, beings devoid of the slightest bit of decency or personal honour.

Remember kids, spending $ on Obshittian games means financing the dreck that tried to forbid MCA to continue to work in cRPGs employing such repellent methods.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Well, this is a first.

Monty Markland did something similar to this to inXile not long ago. He seemed unwell (and disappeared shortly thereafter). I hope you aren't.

Spoiler

'

 

[ColonelTeacup]

Oh, Infinitron, the joke is simple: That you report the news, as your unfortunate profile tag claims, which always make me wince when I see your claim. C'mon, don't be ridiculous. You are so biased, we can't even see you through the glare, but embrace it: It's part of your charm.

EDIT: I really mean this. I love Infinitron's comments, but it's not news, it's just... Infinitron. Change your profile tag, bud.

Infinitron is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a Jew, shill, sellout, paperboy, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him biased and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I've been found out."

I think he's just really attached to that news title.

 

[some funny shit]

Darth Roxor writing review of PoE2 will be the best revenge on Obsidian.

 

[2house2fly]

It seems pretty clear that Obsidian has terrible management. I've always thought it, but this thread definitely confirms it.

Those glassdoor reviews are looking more accurate by post.

Didn't MCA himself say you shouldn't necessarily put too much stock in the glassdoor reviews?

 

[2house2fly]

Honestly PoE2 sales are still a complete mystery, it's super hard to project for because the PC independent game market in 2015 was much, much less clogged than in 2018, and PoE1 got messiah status treatment in review scores and attention from mainstream game journalism etc. Also Steamspy is borked.

They could be twice PoE1, it could be half PoE1, I'd be sweating bullets if I gave obsidian 1k for Figstarter or worked for them.

Agreed, every time I think I would like to keep track of this game's progress I remember that steamspy is dead and get a little sad

 

[Shadenuat]

poe 2 lead writer carrie patel

TBH for an Infinity Engine game her writing would have qualified well enough, as long as actual IE things like monsters, dungeons, loot and magic system were done right. You don't need to be MCA to write BG1/2/IWD, a fair amount of just amusing D&D writing would perfecty fit a road adventure with your party of D&D tropes + obligatory MY WINGS WERE CLIPPED AND THE SUNSET IS SO SAD part.

I was looking at Pathfinder with it's bard asking to join kobolds because they are funnier and that is totally in line with your basic BG1 writing.

But then again, I guess this line of thinking is not serious enough and is

too

traditional.

 

[Iskramor]

Reading the pillars of Eternity sub reddit post on this and I had no idea that place was full snowflakes terrified of the alt right.

Yep, full of people trying to bury this and deflect attention.

Look at this snowflake:

Mods locked it on reddit lol i was going to write 14/88 now im late :sadface:

 

[ColonelTeacup]

It seems pretty clear that Obsidian has terrible management. I've always thought it, but this thread definitely confirms it.

Those glassdoor reviews are looking more accurate by post.

Didn't MCA himself say you shouldn't necessarily put too much stock in the glassdoor reviews?

All the statements are starting to paint a vivid picture however. Not to mention the fucked up shit with how badly they tried to fuck Avellone over, then had the audacity to try and hire him under false pretenses for Tyranny. I wouldn't even worry about any future complaints, considering just the non-compete clause they tried to force on him after not paying him is insane in how ridiculous it is. Even EA wouldn't be so extreme. It almost sounds like a schoolyard bullying tactic, "yeah well if you leave you can't do this with anyone else ever again, forever!"

Hi guys, I'm back from my weekend vacation in Brussels!
Anything happened while I was g-

Fair warning, 2/3rds of it is shitposting.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

All memeing aside, Chris Avellone Infi does have a point here, airing of grievances on that scale is not something I've seen people in the industry do, not unless they've had a long-term job lined up and they felt very secure about their future.

Why are you telling all of this now? Is it because the NDA expired just now? Is it just a spur of the moment thing?
What's your big plan?