Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Vault Dweller]

This has now turned into a discussion where VD's random opinions outweigh whatever sources we can possibly dig up. What's the use of arguing? Infinitron points to Steam having new approval procedures - VD tells us that's not the way it really works (oh, he knows, take his word for it, that's all we have!). I point to the only knowledge we have on why the game is delayed - VD tells us the REAL reason (again, take his word for it people!).

This discussion is pointless. There is no reason to argue if whatever ass-pulled opinion one of the participants have are as legit as an actual source.

Ah, the inevitable "arguing with VD sucks because he doesn't agree with our arguments" defense. Must be tough, eh?

It's nice that you ignore everyone else who feels that the delay is bullshit and zero-in on me. Sure, let's pretend that it's not you against everyone else in this thread, but it's you against me. Reason (that would you, naturally) against "random opinions". Well done, old boy.

Do you want your distribution to be friendly or to bring in more income? Just friendly doesn't do it, sorry...

We start focusing on more income, we're back to square one before we know it.

Focusing in on income via distribution =/= focusing on income by changing gameplay.

Slippery slope is slippery.

And slippery slope arguments are fallacies 99% of the time.

99%? Really? Well, that sounds like a lot and totally not made up. Carry on then.

You don't know why it's a fallacy do you? You only need to read 5 lines of text, but I'll tell you: Slippery slopes that do not recognize middle ground arguments are fallacies. Yours doesn't. You claim that we go instantly from just *thinking* about money to automatically changing gameplay for money. There's is no middle ground consideration. Ergo: fallacy.

I'm saying that delaying the game to get MOAR distribution and breaking the deal with the backers are as slippery as it fucking gets. They aren't poor developers. They are the guys who got 80k from KS and 3 portals. They decided to go for more and nail the big one and shafted the backers in the process.

Anyway, I hate to upset your delicate sensibilities, so let's end this discussion. You win, you clearly know better, etc.

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron:

So, in other words, the fact that almost every one of their games was rejected twice and accepted later (because they kept trying) suggests that Primordia being rejected originally is business as usual and not a sign of global changes.

You're fucking incredible, man.

"The entire Internet is full of indies who are butthurt about not being able to get on Steam. But fuck them, what do they know? I, the great Vault Dweller, know the secrets of how Steam really works! Those chumps just need to try harder!"

You mean the guy who actually has a game on Steam versus a guy who has no games on steam, I have to choose who is right?

How the fuck does VD getting a game greenlighted have anything to do with secret behind-the-veil knowledge of alternative approval procedures?

 

[Vault Dweller]

You're fucking incredible, man.

"The entire Internet is full of indies people who are butthurt "

Fixed.

 

[Infinitron]

Requesting retardo for this thread

 

[Grunker]

This has now turned into a discussion where VD's random opinions outweigh whatever sources we can possibly dig up. What's the use of arguing? Infinitron points to Steam having new approval procedures - VD tells us that's not the way it really works (oh, he knows, take his word for it, that's all we have!). I point to the only knowledge we have on why the game is delayed - VD tells us the REAL reason (again, take his word for it people!).

This discussion is pointless. There is no reason to argue if whatever ass-pulled opinion one of the participants have are as legit as an actual source.

Ah, the inevitable "arguing with VD sucks because he doesn't agree with our arguments" defense. Must be tough, eh?

Ah, the inevitable strawman to avoid facing the fucking argument provided.

It's nice that you ignore everything else who feels that the delay is bullshit and zero-ing on me.

Yeah man, it's not like I've been replying to basically everyone who disagreed with me in this thread... woops, I did. Persecution complex much?

Sure, let's pretend that it's not you against everyone else in this thread

I'm saying that delaying the game to get MOAR distribution and breaking the deal with the backers are as slippery as it fucking gets. They aren't poor developers. They are the guys who got 80k from KS and 3 portals. They decided to go for more and nail the big one and shafted the backers in the process.

Simple points:

NO ONE GOT SHAFTED. SOMEONE HAD TO WAIT A COUPLE OF EXTRA MONTHS. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY'LL SELL OUT THEIR GAMEPLAY TOMORROW.

If you think it does, burden of proof is on you.

Anyway, I hate to upset your delicate sensibilities, so let's end this discussion. You win, you clearly know better, etc.

I like arguing with you VD, except when you pull these fucking fits when you're wrong. We provide sources, you claim to know differently, what the fuck are we to do? What is the point? It's like arguing with a creationist.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Regarding money and friendly: I love Desura, it is really friendly and has great tools for developers, I love GOG, they approached us very early and were very friendly. We will release LoE on both these platforms. But Steam is the biggest online distribution platform and this is the fact. And devs need to take financial data into account, it's as simple as that. Ignoring Steam won't help.

Here are some numbers. I cannot tell you the exact details because I promised I wouldn't but you can get the scope. A game was released at Steam, and other platfroms. Sales data as following: 85% of sales - Steam, 10% GOG, 5% - all others. What it can mean for developer that with enough funds spent on developing, GOG and Desura might make it impossible to even return what was spent on production.

Kickstarter was planned as a platform to test ideas. Great, and it works like that for established companies and people. For all other devs - you have to make 80-90% of the game and then bring it to KS to get funding. E: C and LoE are not exceptions and fall into this category. Please keep in mind that along with our obligations to backers (who we love and adore and who are our true base) we have obligations to investors. Big chunk of our game is made on my own money, but we also have some investors who we need to pay back. I would love to get my money back too, but backers and investors come first. And we as devs need to balance these two things: obligations to backers and obligations to investors.

On the other hand, if the whole game was financed by KS community, it would have been completely another discussion.

 

[Grunker]

Infinitron:

So, in other words, the fact that almost every one of their games was rejected twice and accepted later (because they kept trying) suggests that Primordia being rejected originally is business as usual and not a sign of global changes.

You're fucking incredible, man.

"The entire Internet is full of indies who are butthurt about not being able to get on Steam. But fuck them, what do they know? I, the great Vault Dweller, know the secrets of how Steam really works! Those chumps just need to try harder!"

You mean the guy who actually has a game on Steam versus a guy who has no games on steam, I have to choose who is right?

How the fuck does VD getting a game greenlighted have anything to do with secret behind-the-veil knowledge of alternative approval procedures?

Oh yeah?

So you mean Infinidrone is Gaben in disguise?

Oh for christ sakes retard, Infinitron provided what little information we have on this topic from other sources. VD is just pulling arguments out of his ass.

 

[Grunker]

lol

 

[Darth Roxor]

no rpgcodex, you are the retards

and rpgcodex was retards

 

[Captain Shrek]

lol

o_O

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ah, the inevitable strawman to avoid facing the fucking argument provided.

I thought I addressed all arguments, but if you feel I missed one, copy-paste it and I'll be more than happy to oblige you.

I like arguing with you VD, except when you pull these fucking fits when you're wrong.

What fits? I argued with you until *you* had a fit and started bitching about me disagreeing with you. I suggested to end it since it clearly bothers you. It sure as fuck doesn't bother me, so if you have more to type to me, by all means.

We provide sources, you claim to know differently, what the fuck are we to do? What is the point? It's like arguing with a creationist.

Let's go in order. Infinitron posted a faq which didn't say explicitly that the only way to get in is through Greenlight and suggested ("should" is the key word) that developers should submit their games on Greenlight. I pointed out that such rules have never prevented anyone from making direct contacts.

Infinitron quoted an interview saying that a new game was rejected. In the same sentence it says that all their other games were rejected twice (i.e. his argument defeats itself).

As for you, what sources did you quote?

 

[Infinitron]

Infinitron quoted an interview saying that a new game was rejected. In the same sentence it says that all their other games were rejected twice (i.e. his argument defeats itself).

My argument was that Greenlight has replaced previous methods of submission. Wadjet Eye's other games were from before Greenlight. Learn 2 logic.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And that's exactly why it defeats itself. Don't you get it?

Edit:

Before Greenlight:

A developer submits several games and they are rejected twice until eventually approved.

After Greenlight:

Same developer submits a game, it's rejected once. What changed?

 

[Grunker]

As for you, what sources did you quote?

The only one we have: The developers. I wanted you to accept that anything beyond that was pure speculation.

As for the Infinitron Steam-thing: It clear as fucking day says that Greenlight has replaced other methods. When you straight-up fucking deny that without providing any sort of back-up then where does the discussion go? No where. There is no way to falsify that statement. No way to disprove it. It's just your claim with nothing attached.

Right now it ends with Infinitron's FAQ. Burden of proof is on you to show that he is wrong. In other words:

Vault Dweller do you have an example you can point to of a game on greenlight getting added to Steam without going through greenlight?

 

[tuluse]

Vault Dweller do you have an example you can point to of a game on greenlight getting added to Steam without going through greenlight?

 

[Infinitron]

And that's exactly why it defeats itself. Don't you get it?

Edit:

Before Greenlight:

A developer submits several games and they are rejected twice until eventually approved.

After Greenlight:

Same developer submits a game, it's rejected once. What changed?

It's spelled out for you: "It was the same letter that I'd seen before, but with the addition of, 'I highly suggest putting together a page on Steam Greenlight.' "

Before Greenlight, bugging Valve was the only way for an indie to get onto Steam. They developed Greenlight so they wouldn't have to do that anymore! Use your brain man.

 

[janjetina]

And we as devs need to balance these two things: obligations to backers and obligations to investors.

Actually, you as devs have to fulfill the obligations to backers and the obligations to investors. In order to do that, you have to make sure that the obligations do not clash. In other words, be transparent when you are asking the backers for money and make only those promises that you are able to keep.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Ok, Steam submission process.

Before Aug 2012 the process was the following:
Devs using a form on Steam site enter their data, provide a demo and send it off. Steam decides. Steam might reject or might accept and you never can figure out why. Risk of not acceptance is very high.

Now, Since Sep 2012:
That form on Steam web site doesn't exist anymore. There is no way for devs to contact Steam and say: please accept our game. In rare cases when you catch someone from Steam on a conference, they direct you to Greenlight. That's what it means - there is no other way to Steam other than through Greenlight. I even asked some companies who are there if they could talk to whoever handles their products to accept our game, but response is the same - Greenlight.

I hope it's clear. I have been following Steam submission process for the last three years and I am very happy Greenlight exists. Before it was way too subjective. Now it's hard, but it offers more transparency. In the end, I believe our game would have been accepted through old Steam submission process if we submitted it at a point when our beta is nice and playable, as it is now, for example.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for you, what sources did you quote?

The only one we have: The developers. I wanted you to accept that anything beyond that was pure speculation.

Anything beyond that was never an issue.

The issue is that a ready game (according to the developers) was delayed by 2 months so far because the developer is seeking more distribution. It's been said by many different people and in many different ways, yet you still struggle to process this simple fact. Why?

As for the Infinitron Steam-thing: It clear as fucking day says that Greenlight has replaced other methods. When you straight-up fucking deny that without providing any sort of back-up then where does the discussion go? No where. There is no way to falsify that statement. No way to disprove it. It's just your claim with nothing attached.

Some things should be obvious because that's how the world works.

As long as the process is not fully automated and there are decision makers who have the power to approve the game if they like it, THERE WILL BE ALTERNATIVE WAYS OF GETTING ON STEAM. It's a fact and only an extremely naive person would argue against it pointing out at the rules.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Actually, you as devs have to fulfill the obligations to backers and the obligations to investors. In order to do that, you have to make sure that the obligations do not clash. In other words, be transparent when you are asking the backers for money and make only those promises that you are able to keep.

Well said, I agree, thank you for phrasing it better.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And that's exactly why it defeats itself. Don't you get it?

Edit:

Before Greenlight:

A developer submits several games and they are rejected twice until eventually approved.

After Greenlight:

Same developer submits a game, it's rejected once. What changed?

It's spelled out for you: "It was the same letter that I'd seen before, but with the addition of, 'I highly suggest putting together a page on Steam Greenlight.' "

That sounds like ... serious business.

Before Greenlight, bugging Valve was the only way for an indie to get onto Steam. They developed Greenlight so they wouldn't have to do that anymore! Use your brain man.

They created GL because they were overloaded with shitty submissions. More than 3000 were submitted when GL was launched. Imagine sorting through them in your mailbox.

Follow your own advice and ask 'why?' because accepting something at face value.

 

[Stelcio]

The only one we have: The developers. I wanted you to accept that anything beyond that was pure speculation.

You mean like this one?

Maybe they needed Steam money right fucking now. Maybe they were about to go bankrupt. It's not their fault Steam is so much more dominant over all other distribution networks.

If we shouldn't speculate than this whole Steam discussion is pointless as it is solely based on a speculation that Logic Artists desperately need money from Steam.
Seriously - why should we justify delaying a game just to get to Steam earlier if there is no indication that they desperately need money?

 

[Infinitron]

As long as the process is not fully automated and there are decision makers who have the power to approve the game if they like it, THERE WILL BE ALTERNATIVE WAYS OF GETTING ON STEAM. It's a fact and only an extremely naive person would argue against it pointing out at the rules.

Yes, if you rescue President Gaben from the Dragon Ninja he'll probably let you put your game on Steam. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue President Gaben?

 

[Grunker]

The issue is that a ready game (according to the developers) was delayed by 2 months so far because the developer is seeking more distribution. It's been said by many different people and in many different ways, yet you still struggle to process this simple fact. Why?

sigh

I have a problem with:

1) Viewing a two month delay as big problem

2) Speculating that the addition of multiplayer was caused by contacting more distributors

I think I made this point clear plenty of fucking times.

But really, I think it's clear we're not going anywhere when you can still claim this:

Some things should be obvious because that's how the world works.

in the face of this:

Now, Since Sep 2012:
That form on Steam web site doesn't exist anymore. There is no way for devs to contact Steam and say: please accept our game. In rare cases when you catch someone from Steam on a conference, they direct you to Greenlight. That's what it means - there is no other way to Steam other than through Greenlight. I even asked some companies who are there if they could talk to whoever handles their products to accept our game, but response is the same - Greenlight.

I hope it's clear. I have been following Steam submission process for the last three years

Your argument: It should be obvious. Why? Just because!

Infinitron and Aterdux: This is the way it works. Why? Because of what Steam says and what actual developers experience when interacting with Steam.

If you cannot accept that the latter is clearly and undeniably a stronger argument, then there is zero fucking point in progressing.

As long as the process is not fully automated and there are decision makers who have the power to approve the game if they like it, THERE WILL BE ALTERNATIVE WAYS OF GETTING ON STEAM. It's a fact and only an extremely naive person would argue against it pointing out at the rules.

Says you. In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This is absurd VD. I haven't been met with this amount of straight up denial of sources since the last time I argued with someone believing in astrology.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

And that's exactly why it defeats itself. Don't you get it?

Edit:

Before Greenlight:

A developer submits several games and they are rejected twice until eventually approved.

After Greenlight:

Same developer submits a game, it's rejected once. What changed?

Wrong. After Greenlight - the game is never rejected. It just hangs out there until developers pulls it.