Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Vault Dweller]

That breaks Kickstarter's own rule about not supporting projects and remaining neutral.

Hard to remain neutral when you're making 10% off every deal, translating into millions of dollars.

 

[tindrli]

That breaks Kickstarter's own rule about not supporting projects and remaining neutral.

Hard to remain neutral when you're making 10% off every deal, translating into millions of dollars.

i dont mind at all the fact that they are gaining zillions of $ and will support anything that fuck up the damn publishers...

i just dont get it why the hell did they screw so bad.. this game could be perfect example .. Fuck the studio .. fuck the office...fuck continues business...

 

[octavius]

What a bunch of clones.

And what are those green cans? Tuborg beer?

 

[Kosmonaut]

I hope this is the last game LogicDerptist release ever. Those assholes don't deserve any kind of support.

 

[Misconnected]

And what are those green cans? Tuborg beer?

Not entirely sure, but I think it might be a local Redbull-equivalent. It isn't beer.

I'm not too terribly upset with them yet. But the key word here is "yet". And better communication would be appreciated.

 

[winterraptor]

The only way Kickstarter is going to change apparently is by something basically blowing up in their face and forcing it, if ever. They indeed seem to ignore criticism that tries to do nothing more than enforce their own rules.

I would hope that the people themselves would learn over time and not donate to the more obvious scams, but I doubt anything of the sort really. Kickstarter is like a casino for goodwill highs. Those with more control can have the occasional good time (or even 'profit', if you will, by gaining something worthwhile out of it, i.e. a finished, good game or product) without becoming addicts and complete impulsive gullible fools.

 

[almondblight]

Those rules exist to protect backers from being taken advantage of and were made so Kickstarter remains neutral and objective.

Apparently, those rules exist so that backers feel safe enough to give them money. Seems to work.

There's always alpha funding, though that has its own issues.

 

[DeepOcean]

If KS offered some kind of legal protection forcing the developers to keep their word in relation with the stretch goals, features of the game and in case of failing, forcing refunds, this would diminish the risk of pledging for unknown developers thus allowing them to get more money on the KS and if they need investors or publishers, we would feel more secure, because the if the publishers force them to change anything, they are risking legal action. Most people aren't exactly annoyed by the delay (still it sucks) but based on the rules of kickstarter, a game can start as a turn based tactical game and the developers can just turn it into a RTS or change critical features if they want and can't be punished by it. If a legal protection existed, I'm sure the Harebrained Schemes couldn't simply "forget" to tell about the deal with Microsoft, Logic Artists would need to pay more attention to communication and promising the moon and delivering shit would be very risky. Only the people that are really dedicated would try a kickstarter and not wannabe developers with too much dreams and not enough dedication. The Haunts is a example, the guy decided to offer refunds but if he didn't wanted?

Theoretically, you can say that a developer can be punished by massive loss of reputation, this is true to something like Obsidian, InExile but for smaller unknown developers? People can learn to avoid scams, but if scams becomes too common, if projects start to fail alot, only people with enough reputation are going to succeed. I really love Project Eternity, Wasteland 2 and Tides of Numenera, but I want to see new developers becoming the Black Isle/Looking Glass/Troika of the future and I want to see new stuff too, but backers are avoiding unkown developers because of the rules. KS should assume the reponsability of eliminating the irresponsible/dishonest people.

 

[D13_Michael]

I don't mind minor delays (say a month or so) as long as it means we get a better end product, but I think Kickstarters should do a better job at giving themselves some buffer room seeing as just about every video game kickstarter ever has been delayed.

Which is quite normal I'd say. Just once seen a game which kept in the planned timeframe. Unexpected things can always happen. And everywhere. Programming, delays of outsourced work, distribution problems with some platforms etc.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I don't mind minor delays (say a month or so) as long as it means we get a better end product, but I think Kickstarters should do a better job at giving themselves some buffer room seeing as just about every video game kickstarter ever has been delayed.

Which is quite normal I'd say. Just once seen a game which kept in the planned timeframe. Unexpected things can always happen. And everywhere. Programming, delays of outsourced work, distribution problems with some platforms etc.

Also, hidden deals with publishers, unwanted features added at the last minute, etc.

 

[Grimlorn]

If KS offered some kind of legal protection forcing the developers to keep their word in relation with the stretch goals, features of the game and in case of failing, forcing refunds, this would diminish the risk of pledging for unknown developers thus allowing them to get more money on the KS and if they need investors or publishers, we would feel more secure, because the if the publishers force them to change anything, they are risking legal action. Most people aren't exactly annoyed by the delay (still it sucks) but based on the rules of kickstarter, a game can start as a turn based tactical game and the developers can just turn it into a RTS or change critical features if they want and can't be punished by it. If a legal protection existed, I'm sure the Harebrained Schemes couldn't simply "forget" to tell about the deal with Microsoft, Logic Artists would need to pay more attention to communication and promising the moon and delivering shit would be very risky. Only the people that are really dedicated would try a kickstarter and not wannabe developers with too much dreams and not enough dedication. The Haunts is a example, the guy decided to offer refunds but if he didn't wanted?

KS shouldn't have any kind of legal power. As soon as it comes out that someone scammed a project that was reported to Kickstarter as being a scam, they should be legally culpable as they are getting a percentage of every project. Right now it works to their benefit to allow people to pledge to scam projects because they see a percentage of that money. They need to be held responsible legally for scams so they do the right thing and judge them objectively.

 

[Misconnected]

KS shouldn't have any kind of legal power. As soon as it comes out that someone scammed a project that was reported to Kickstarter as being a scam, they should be legally culpable as they are getting a percentage of every project. Right now it works to their benefit to allow people to pledge to scam projects because they see a percentage of that money. They need to be held responsible legally for scams so they do the right thing and judge them objectively.

How do you propose they do this, though?

A different, and I'm guessing a lot less impossible way of addressing scamming issues, would be to create some sort of mandatory anti-scam insurance thingy.

 

[tindrli]

just dont mention word "insurance" and maybe there is a chance

 

[Misconnected]

just dont mention word "insurance" and maybe there is a chance

Call it a fund or a happy little smurf. Either way someone's going to get creative with the overhead and buy a lot of yachts. I suppose I might change my tune, but presently I'd rather be illegitimately scammed. Legit scammers piss me off way more.

 

[Monty]

The problem is, who decides if it is a scam, if something is produced? A panel? A vote? A judge? Like that RPG college / youtube farce, would that have triggered an 'insurance' payout? Or a game which promised no DRM but came out on Steam? Seems like a lot of grey areas.

I think at some point an obvious scam will end up in court, Kickstarter will be burned financially and in PR terms, and then they will hopefully clamp down on some of these abuses. Else they may end up the "MySpace" to someone else's "Facebook".

 

[Grimlorn]

KS shouldn't have any kind of legal power. As soon as it comes out that someone scammed a project that was reported to Kickstarter as being a scam, they should be legally culpable as they are getting a percentage of every project. Right now it works to their benefit to allow people to pledge to scam projects because they see a percentage of that money. They need to be held responsible legally for scams so they do the right thing and judge them objectively.

How do you propose they do this, though?

A different, and I'm guessing a lot less impossible way of addressing scamming issues, would be to create some sort of mandatory anti-scam insurance thingy.

No insurance imo. Kickstarter should just be held liable for their actions if there are reports of a project being a scam, they should investigate and terminate it. If they leave it up they are culpable in the scam and are profiting from it. I don't know how companies who are complicit in scams are prosecuted but they should be.

Their rules are suppose to be there to protect the backers from being taken advantage of. They aren't there to make backers feel safe so they'll donate to anything while Kickstarter pockets 5%. Kickstarter actually following their own TOS would be a step in the right direction. Also, they should actually try to remain neutral and objective. Fire anyone who can't do that.

 

[almondblight]

I think at some point an obvious scam will end up in court, Kickstarter will be burned financially and in PR terms, and then they will hopefully clamp down on some of these abuses. Else they may end up the "MySpace" to someone else's "Facebook".

I don't know, ZionEyez raised $343,000 and ran off with it almost two years ago, and it doesn't seem to have fazed them. Otherwise I think you're right, if Kickstarter becomes known for scams and shovelware, there may be an opening for a site that vets games more thoroughly. The problem (if it can be called that) is, like Steam, we'll suddenly have all these teams trying desperately to get on nuKickstarter because it's "the only way to make it as an indie." And just like today, there will be plenty of indies that find alternative ways to survive and even thrive.

 

[tuluse]

Chris Roberts did his own crowd funding site and got plenty of money, and Starbound is currently at 700k on their own site. http://playstarbound.com/store/

 

[winterraptor]

5 years from now Kickstarter will be 90% projects funding niche fetish porn. The Codex will sing its praises mightily.

 

[tindrli]

Chris Roberts did his own crowd funding site and got plenty of money, and Starbound is currently at 700k on their own site. http://playstarbound.com/store/

says Who??? Chris Roberts ???

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.facebook.com/logicartists/posts/240212056125136

 

[janjetina]

The problem is, who decides if it is a scam, if something is produced? A panel? A vote? A judge? Like that RPG college / youtube farce, would that have triggered an 'insurance' payout? Or a game which promised no DRM but came out on Steam? Seems like a lot of grey areas.

I think at some point an obvious scam will end up in court, Kickstarter will be burned financially and in PR terms, and then they will hopefully clamp down on some of these abuses. Else they may end up the "MySpace" to someone else's "Facebook".

Dispute resolution like on Paypal would be the first step. That means that the Kickstarter itself should set up the logistics to handle the dispute. The dispute resolution should revolve around whether the explicit promises were upheld. In the case of an obvious scam, Kickstarter should be responisble for reimbursing the backers and pursuing legal action.

The way it works now will probably go on until somebody determined enough gets scammed and decides to organise a class action suit. If that happens, all bets are off.

 

[Jaedar]

I think the developers are actually hoping for an april release.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 

[D13_Michael]

A little update: Soon it will be announced that E:C will make it to a specific major online distributor. We just received a go for that. It ain't long from now on.

 

[tindrli]

finnaly FFS