Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,692
Hilarious. Wrong-headed. Brainwash-y. Roguey in a nutshell :P

p.s. IWD2 was the worst IE game, quite an achievement
sup lesi

Valid example -> Valid example -> Invalid example. Pure bullshit demagoguery. Aliens license is popular with pop-cult status and Aliens RPG wasn't Sawyer's personal pet project. You can't go from implicating an individual for his individual design choices to such a strawman based on a superficial and irrelevant connection. You need to be a fucking lunatic to make that kind of connection.
Josh Sawyer agreed to be a lead designer of a project that focuses on xenomorphs who rape humans in order to impregnate them.
Sweety, Caesar's Legion is a concept originally written by Chris Avellone for Van Buren. I'm sure you know a LOT of design elements from VB made it into FNV. If you are desperate to make a point about rape (or pretty much anything), don't dilute it with irrelevant bullshit for your own credibility.
When Avellone created CL they were just a vague slaver society. Josh fleshed them out.

What made you decide that it was John Deiley?
Because I linked to Damien Foletto's linkedin elsewhere in the article and he was courteous enough to detail which areas he worked on.
Titles worked on and shipped:
Icewind Dale 2
Levels:
*Horde Fortress
*Fields of Slaughter
*Severed Hand
Third edition-style multiclassing (where any race can take almost any class on level-up) replaces the demihuman multiclassing and human dual-classing of 2nd edition; a boon for the fighter and rogue classes who can benefit from self-only buffs and are only worth taking for 4-5 and up to 10-11 levels respectively
That should read "are only worth taking up to 4-5 and 10-11 levels respectively".
It's an awkward sentence but "up to 4-5 levels" for fighter isn't accurate because it implies you can get by with 1-3 levels of fighter and that would be crazy. You take it to four levels so you can get weapon specialization, maybe 5 if you absolutely need an extra feat.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Could someone really explain why we are getting these shit "articles" on Codex mainpage? One more Roguey bullshit on main page and I'm starting mass-spamming.

:lol: I rather like it when you and Roguey squabble with each other because you two seem very similar to me.

Why don't you write your own review of something?

I changed my mind. I will write a review. Who do I send it to?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,591
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Could someone really explain why we are getting these shit "articles" on Codex mainpage? One more Roguey bullshit on main page and I'm starting mass-spamming.

:lol: I rather like it when you and Roguey squabble with each other because you two seem very similar to me.

Why don't you write your own review of something?

I changed my mind. I will write a review. Who do I send it to?


A review of what?
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,845
Nice review. I'm actually playing IWD 2 for the second time right now, whereas I never felt like replaying the first game (and only finished it because of my mistaken belief that it was bound to eventually get better). It's not one of the greatest CRPGs ever, but it's fairly decent.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Could someone really explain why we are getting these shit "articles" on Codex mainpage? One more Roguey bullshit on main page and I'm starting mass-spamming.

:lol: I rather like it when you and Roguey squabble with each other because you two seem very similar to me.

Why don't you write your own review of something?

I changed my mind. I will write a review. Who do I send it to?


A review of what?

Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.
 

godsend1989

Scholar
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
270
Divinity: Original Sin
I don't know about you guys but IWD2 villains got stuck in my mind, those brothers looks and voice was so badass !
:yeah:
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,591
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.


Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth. :lol:

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.
 

evdk

comrade troglodyte :M
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
11,292
Location
Corona regni Bohemiae
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.


Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth. :lol:

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.
Who's next up, skyway? This is becoming a farce.

EDIT: Also: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-review-alpha-protocol.79647/
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
So, Alpha Protocol has a good plot, lots of clever characterization, and unsurpassed C&C. That means it should be great, right?

Well, too bad the gameplay sucks.

What else can you possibly need? Except for good jokes, of course.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,591
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.


Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth. :lol:

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.
Who's next up, skyway? This is becoming a farce.

EDIT: Also: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-review-alpha-protocol.79647/


Yes, it would be better if VOTS's editorial was not just about Alpha Protocol, but about the stealth systems in all of Obsidian's games. Or whatever.
 

eric__s

ass hater
Developer
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
2,301
Rpgcodex officialy became gaygamer spawn. In our next quality, indeph review Anita Sarkeesian will be talking about how much better P:T would be if you could play as a faggot. Stay tooned

Regardless of what people think about the article, can we keep garbage like this out of the news forum? Thanks.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.


Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth. :lol:

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.
Who's next up, skyway? This is becoming a farce.

EDIT: Also: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-review-alpha-protocol.79647/


Yes, it would be better if VOTS's editorial was not just about Alpha Protocol, but about the stealth systems in all of Obsidian's games. Or whatever.

That's the plan. Maybe I'll just post a thread and if it's good enough, you may carry it over to the main page.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
Hilarious. Wrong-headed. Brainwash-y. Roguey in a nutshell :P

p.s. IWD2 was the worst IE game, quite an achievement
sup lesi

Valid example -> Valid example -> Invalid example. Pure bullshit demagoguery. Aliens license is popular with pop-cult status and Aliens RPG wasn't Sawyer's personal pet project. You can't go from implicating an individual for his individual design choices to such a strawman based on a superficial and irrelevant connection. You need to be a fucking lunatic to make that kind of connection.
Josh Sawyer agreed to be a lead designer of a project that focuses on xenomorphs who rape humans in order to impregnate them.

Anita... Anita Sarkeesian? Is that you? That's the same kind of fucked up circular logic used for that Christmas song, so it must be you.

Sweety, Caesar's Legion is a concept originally written by Chris Avellone for Van Buren. I'm sure you know a LOT of design elements from VB made it into FNV. If you are desperate to make a point about rape (or pretty much anything), don't dilute it with irrelevant bullshit for your own credibility.
When Avellone created CL they were just a vague slaver society. Josh fleshed them out.

Yeah. Josh gave them their outfits as a mimicry of actual Romans. It's still Avellone who wrote the legion.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,730
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth. :lol:

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.
Who's next up, skyway? This is becoming a farce.

After allowing Roguey discourse about her fetish with Josh and letting VOTS muse about his fetish with Obsidian's stealth, it's only fair to give space for hiver to talk about his scat fetish.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,692
I made a bet with myself that more posters would talk about the Josh "rape kid" Sawyer paragraphs (280 words out of a 5600+ word article) than they would about my thoughts about IWD2's implementation of third edition D&D or its content or anything else. The tally right now is something like 16:7. Tomorrow I get to treat myself to a bottle of pina colada-flavored water and a diet soda.

No immediate developer retweets this time around but I expected that considering the above. :( I do appreciate the non-dev twitter validation though.

Anita... Anita Sarkeesian? Is that you? That's the same kind of fucked up circular logic used for that Christmas song, so it must be you.
He can choose not to work on such a project. But he wouldn't, because he's a huge fan of the first two Alien movies and put them in his top movies list. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/623498648

Yeah. Josh gave them their outfits as a mimicry of actual Romans. It's still Avellone who wrote the legion.
But did he write them as explicit rapists? Who knows. The point is that Josh chose to introduce them, rape and all.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,570
Well, this was probably my least favourite IE game (not counting Torment which was more book than game to me).

Simply put, the hodge-podge of different level designs thrown together just didn't seem as coherent as the other titles (the visit to Chult in particular seemed ridculously out of place). There were some incredibly dull levels (The Ice Temple was as tedious to play as it was to look at) and the "puzzle" elements added to the game just got in the way of storyline progression. I also found the antagonists disappointing after the chief baddie in the original (a couple of annoying demon teenagers decide to take venegence on the world for being bullied - boo hoo).

Don't get me wrong - the game is decent but disappointing when held up to the first IWD and the BGs.

Also I can't agree with:
I found the soundtrack in the previous title forgettable
when IWD had a soundtrack that I can still recall and remember fondly today.

The problem with reading these articles is that they make me want to play the games all over again even though I've finished them at least three times each and have tons of other stuff froM Steam sales sitting waiting for me on my Hard drive!
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,692
Also I can't agree with:
I found the soundtrack in the previous title forgettable
when IWD had a soundtrack that I can still recall and remember fondly today.
To me it sounds like Fantasy RPG Soundtrack with the strings and crap. I like atypical soundtracks like Divinity 2's, the first Witcher's, Torment's, Mask of the Betrayer's, Arcanum's, Temple of Elemental Evil's (though the combat music got repetitive), the opening of Divine Divinity and so on.
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,730
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
I made a bet with myself that more posters would talk about the Josh "rape kid" Sawyer paragraphs (280 words out of a 5600+ word article) than they would about my thoughts about IWD2's implementation of third edition D&D or its content or anything else. The tally right now is something like 16:7. Tomorrow I get to treat myself to a bottle of pina colada-flavored water and a diet soda.

Considering how often you quote Josh and joke about stalking him, it's not really surprising that people would take notice of that part. That was a pretty one-sided bet, you should tell yourself that you won't buy any drinks for yourself. If you complain, tell you to fuck yourself because you ain't making no fool of yourself.

I think your articles are fine, though :oops:
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
7,428
Location
Villainville
MCA
I made a bet with myself that more posters would talk about the Josh "rape kid" Sawyer paragraphs (280 words out of a 5600+ word article) than they would about my thoughts about IWD2's implementation of third edition D&D or its content or anything else. The tally right now is something like 16:7. Tomorrow I get to treat myself to a bottle of pina colada-flavored water and a diet soda.

No immediate developer retweets this time around but I expected that considering the above. :( I do appreciate the non-dev twitter validation though.

Anita... Anita Sarkeesian? Is that you? That's the same kind of fucked up circular logic used for that Christmas song, so it must be you.
He can choose not to work on such a project. But he wouldn't, because he's a huge fan of the first two Alien movies and put them in his top movies list. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/623498648

And this means what? This means you are a fucking lunatic desperate to reach for straws.

But go ahead, tell Josh that you think he's obsessed about rape because he likes Aliens. If you like Aliens, you are rape-obsessed. That's a fact.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It's an awkward sentence but "up to 4-5 levels" for fighter isn't accurate because it implies you can get by with 1-3 levels of fighter and that would be crazy. You take it to four levels so you can get weapon specialization, maybe 5 if you absolutely need an extra feat.
I see. That does make sense.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
Hilarious. Wrong-headed. Brainwash-y. Roguey in a nutshell :P

p.s. IWD2 was the worst IE game, quite an achievement
sup lesi

Valid example -> Valid example -> Invalid example. Pure bullshit demagoguery. Aliens license is popular with pop-cult status and Aliens RPG wasn't Sawyer's personal pet project. You can't go from implicating an individual for his individual design choices to such a strawman based on a superficial and irrelevant connection. You need to be a fucking lunatic to make that kind of connection.
Josh Sawyer agreed to be a lead designer of a project that focuses on xenomorphs who rape humans in order to impregnate them.
Sweety, Caesar's Legion is a concept originally written by Chris Avellone for Van Buren. I'm sure you know a LOT of design elements from VB made it into FNV. If you are desperate to make a point about rape (or pretty much anything), don't dilute it with irrelevant bullshit for your own credibility.
When Avellone created CL they were just a vague slaver society. Josh fleshed them out.

What made you decide that it was John Deiley?
Because I linked to Damien Foletto's linkedin elsewhere in the article and he was courteous enough to detail which areas he worked on.
Titles worked on and shipped:
Icewind Dale 2
Levels:
*Horde Fortress
*Fields of Slaughter
*Severed Hand
Third edition-style multiclassing (where any race can take almost any class on level-up) replaces the demihuman multiclassing and human dual-classing of 2nd edition; a boon for the fighter and rogue classes who can benefit from self-only buffs and are only worth taking for 4-5 and up to 10-11 levels respectively
That should read "are only worth taking up to 4-5 and 10-11 levels respectively".
It's an awkward sentence but "up to 4-5 levels" for fighter isn't accurate because it implies you can get by with 1-3 levels of fighter and that would be crazy. You take it to four levels so you can get weapon specialization, maybe 5 if you absolutely need an extra feat.

I agree that the rape aspect is a flaw in a lot of these games, but I suspect that's more to with shortcomings as a writer - for much the same reason that it's a notorious writing flaw in all forms of media...and female writers don't seem to fare any better at it. A large part of the problem is working out what level and kind of horrific events you can put in a work without seeming like you're exploiting them (I use the word 'seeming' because people who have never written, acted or worked on film in any serious capacity massively underestimate how little of a person's intended interpretation ends up manifesting in the readers'/audience's take on it). On the one hand, rape is one of the worst aspects of war, and more than that, it's been a central aspect of every major war ever fought. That gets writers of both genders thinking that they should include it either for realism or because not doing so is simply contributing to hiding a major global problem. What they don't take account of is two things:
1. How it fits with the feel of the work. Rape almost always ends up feeling exploitative in games. For the same reason that it does in superhero comics. You can't go from playing actiony-fun game, or a strategic game, or even a philosoraptory game like PS:T, and suddenly try to do a serious take on a real-life horror. Ahhh...but why the double-standard - we're killing people by the hundreds (more in games, but I'm trying to keep this reasonably cross-media)? Well, that's not something I can answer, except to say - well done society, we've managed to completely numb ourselves (myself included) to violence. Maybe it's a good thing that rape still bothers us.

2. That if you want to tackle any real-life horror that people aren't completely numb to, you need to be a rather good writer. Much is made of the 'fridiging' trope, where female supporting characters have a tendency to be killed off in ways that are designed to propel the main character. The thing is, writers as far back as the ancient Greeks have known that in many genres, one way to make an interesting character stand out is to write them a memorable death (examples of both genders abound in Shakespeare - the two most notable being Mercutio's sudden switch from comic relief to his 'a plague on both your houses' death overshadowing everything else in Romeo and Juliet, and Ophelia's madness and death overshadowing a solid chunk of Hamlet - both characters are much more memorable than they would have been if Shakespeare had treated them kindly). In comics there's the eternal attempts to receate the death of Gwen Stacey. But most writers just aren't good enough to do that. Most of the time it fails. Some of the the time it works - sticking with comic books, Batgirl/Oracle becoming a parapalegic is often included in 'frdging' lists, but by getting rid of both junior side kicks, and giving the character a role that wasn't previously filled, it ended up changing the character from being a one-note plot device into something approaching an actual character. Psychological issues have little to do with that (or one would expect female writers and showrunners to do it better - to run with the pop-culture reference, it's amazing how even the attempt at feminism left the 'Buffy' tv series after Whedon handed the showrunner duties over...and that the infamous Buffy/Spike 'girl falls in love with her attempted rapist' storyline was presided over by a female showrunner and writer). It's not just violence against women - it's any kind of real life horror. There's been numerous attempts to show the full horror of homophobic violence, war and the holocaust that have come across as exploitative despite ample evidence that wasn't the creators' intent (the recent closure of the Nazi-themed opera in Berlin after opening night is a good example). Nor is it a highbrow v lowbrow thing - one of the strength's of early, pulpy, Stephen King novels was his ability to incorporate underlying themes of small-town homophobic and racist violence into many of his works, without doing so in a way that the writing seems to take pleasure in the brutality. That doesn't tell us anything about who King is as a person, or what is fixations are, especially in light of the many of examples of writers with much more compelling evidence of admirable intention creating repeatedly exploitative works.

A lot of this is just talent combined with structural knowledge of writing. Sawyer's strength has long been structural knowledge of gaming....I wouldn't read too much into his writing other than what it says about his skill as a writer.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
I cared for the mechanics discussion and overview of combat encounters; not so much the "analysis", which I still can't quite tell is trolling or serious.

Still, for posterity: yes, let's say rape is a recurring theme in Icewind Dale II. Even if it is, it's a cheap shot to criticize Sawyer over it simply because it happens to be rape. The problem is with rape, you can't win. Appropriate to the setting or the gravitas of the story being told? But it's a videogame, you shouldn't be so serious! If you make a story involving rape then you're affirming it by acknowledging its existence... and if you make one without rape then you're denying a serious social issue. If a man writes a story about rape, is it self-deprecating, a pathetic plea for credibility in the eyes of women and other forward-thinking men, or a mature admission of a serious issue? It's whatever the person doing the critique wants to criticize it for, I guess.

Might as well say Icewind Dale's icy, cold landscape is indicative of Josh's bitter experiences with women in the past and his female villain a metaphor for his learned misogyny. Critical analysis is flexible in that you can always play the "it's what I bring to the story that matters, not what the story actually intends" card.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom