Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

[tuluse]

Roguey only comments that there is an unusual amount of rape in Sawyer's writing. She doesn't really criticize him for it other than with his own words that writers should write about things they know.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.

Oh gawd, a review about Obsidian's FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED understanding of stealth.

Okay, fine, start writing. If we can cater to Roguey's obsession we can certainly cater to yours. But it has to be good! PM the review to Crooked Bee and me.

It doesn't seem like that criterium has been very important so far.

 

[Severian Silk]

Very interesting retrospective. Would read another.

 

[Zeriel]

NEXT UP: Volly reviews NWN, dwarfs everywhere.

He did review NWN, once upon a time.

Should it matter?

I was thinking, Alpha Popamole. I have a feeling that Obsidian soon might find themselves in a position with some leverage and leverage away another AP from SEGA (or another "espionage game" since they worked on "espionage mechanics" for AP2 before SEGA blew their air), so I'd like to try and set a few things in stone as a reminder.

Write a review of Roguey's review. It'll be very meta, and hence much better.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I didn't know about that, it's pretty cool.

Overall interesting and well written review, I totally disagree about the ID2 > ID1 general tone but didn't ragequit reading. The only thing I'd really criticize in the review is skipping the butchering of 3.5 rules applied to ID2 RTwP crap, by comparing it with ToEE or KotC for instance.

 

[SwiftCrack]

 

[CappenVarra]

If discussing IWD 2 mechanics was the point, we had plenty of that in the Icewind Dale Series thread, and you could get a much more interesting overview by summarizing the main mechanics discussion sub-threads from that there... But what's the point? It's not like the game is new, unknown, a hidden gem... It's meh all around. So a meh "review" suits it well I guess.

 

[Azrael the cat]

I cared for the mechanics discussion and overview of combat encounters; not so much the "analysis", which I still can't quite tell is trolling or serious.

Still, for posterity: yes, let's say rape is a recurring theme in Icewind Dale II. Even if it is, it's a cheap shot to criticize Sawyer over it simply because it happens to be rape. The problem is with rape, you can't win. Appropriate to the setting or the gravitas of the story being told? But it's a videogame, you shouldn't be so serious! If you make a story involving rape then you're affirming it by acknowledging its existence... and if you make one without rape then you're denying a serious social issue. If a man writes a story about rape, is it self-deprecating, a pathetic plea for credibility in the eyes of women and other forward-thinking men, or a mature admission of a serious issue? It's whatever the person doing the critique wants to criticize it for, I guess.

Agreed, except it's not just male writers by any stretch of the imagination, and I was explaining why it's usually a bad story move - like any kind of real-world horror that one presently faces, at least in the abstract, it (a) really needs to fit the mood and feel, not just the setting, and (b) you have to be a really good writer to pull it off.

These things aren't restricted to rape (again, look at the recent closure of the anti-nazi opera in Berlin) - it's just writing skill and structural knowledge. And for the record, the thing that really shook people at the Berlin opera wasn't the rape scene but the accuracy with which their makeup and effects crew managed to portray someone getting shot in the head.

And my point wasn't to take a shot at Sawyer, but to note that the intentions of a writer/performer/artist and what the audience takes away are drastically different things (the mechanics comment was because I'm fairly certain that if Sawyer had come from a writing background instead of a game mechanics background, he'd be very familiar with the pitfalls of writing this stuff).

I'm coming at this partly from my own experience, but largely from the experience of the male and female writers, actors and directors that I've known (my own experience of these things is limited to non-fiction academic writing and doing theatre when I was young + pretty enough to get away with not having any talent and being an uncoordinated brick on stage (still got a Bacon number of 3 though). What you intend to put out and what gets taken away are really different things, and it certainly isn't just 'white male heteros' that cop that (I've seen plenty of female writers and directors make the same mistakes and get criticised just as badly). My point was that you can't really take ANYTHING from one's writing as an indication of one's psychological fixations - good or bad - all you can take is their strengths and weaknesses as a writer.

 

[Grunker]

It's basically a combatfag review. If there's anything I'd be concerned about if the Codex was a more "professional" publication and I was the editor, it would be that. The feminist trolling is just easily ignorable fluff. If you let it bother you, you're falling for an obvious trap.

This. Apparantly the Codex is easily baited.

 

[Sensuki]

The retrospective was alright, but the thread is better.

I wonder how much rape we're gonna see read about in Project Eternity.

Lol, I am actually wondering about this because there's no inter-race pregnancies so some interesting stuff could be done with that.

Josh "rape kid" Sawyer

lol'd I might start using that on the something awful forums and see if it invokes a reply

Dead Can Dance

Good stuff, big fan of them as well.

the first Witcher's soundtrack

Agreed. Very good soundtrack.

 

[Roguey]

But go ahead, tell Josh that you think he's obsessed about rape because he likes Aliens. If you like Aliens, you are rape-obsessed. That's a fact.

Not by itself it doesn't. I wrote about a consistent pattern of behavior.

Still, for posterity: yes, let's say rape is a recurring theme in Icewind Dale II. Even if it is, it's a cheap shot to criticize Sawyer over it simply because it happens to be rape.

I'm sure even he would agree now this is bad.

The only thing I'd really criticize in the review is skipping the butchering of 3.5 rules applied to ID2 RTwP crap, by comparing it with ToEE or KotC for instance.

It's straight-up third edition, not 3.5. I don't consider them butchered. ToEE is turn-based but it only goes up to level 10 and has much fewer enjoyable combat encounters overall. KotC has significantly less customization when it comes to race and class choices and it (justifiably) tweaks spellcasting rules among others to make them more appropriate for a video game. Trade-offs everywhere.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I don't consider them butchered. ToEE is turn-based but it only goes up to level 10 and has much fewer enjoyable combat encounters overall. KotC has significantly less customization when it comes to race and class choices and it (justifiably) tweaks spellcasting rules among others to make them more appropriate for a video game. Trade-offs everywhere.

Shit, no grid, no attacks of opportunity, no 5 foot step, no readied actions (just the usual "fire at will on casters" IE's drill)... if it's a trade-off, it's not worth the price and it IS butchering. Plus, level cap and encounter design are not part of the implementation of rules.

 

[Zeriel]

That's just poor writing, not "problematic". Well, unless you're more concerned with whether or not writing matches a personal checklist than if it's good writing.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's basically a combatfag review. If there's anything I'd be concerned about if the Codex was a more "professional" publication and I was the editor, it would be that. The feminist trolling is just easily ignorable fluff. If you let it bother you, you're falling for an obvious trap.

This. Apparantly the Codex is easily baited.

Dude, I work in academia. It's like having a compendium of responses to allegations of sexism, homophobia or white male privilege from which one can cut and paste

Actually, to be honest, that really isn't true any more, at least not in Australian and NZ Universities.

 

[Lord Trousersnake]

It's basically a combatfag review. If there's anything I'd be concerned about if the Codex was a more "professional" publication and I was the editor, it would be that. The feminist trolling is just easily ignorable fluff. If you let it bother you, you're falling for an obvious trap.

This. Apparantly the Codex is easily baited.

The baiting is obvious. What it's doing in the news section in a "RPG Codex Retrospective Review" is less obvious which is what most are commenting on.

Some of the previous Codex spoof reviews have been hilarious, even the first Roguey review was mildly amusing. This is just fucking tedious now.

There are plenty of sites having boring discussions about feminism in games etc, plenty of trolling by Roguey on the forums here. Fine. But now we've got a pathetic discussion in the news section about alien "rape" and Sawyer's "obsession".

If this was the master plan then well done, but it hardly lives up the usual standards of Codex trolling (which is all we can judge it on as it's clearly not "news" and is pretty dismal as a straight review).

Verdict: Fail

 

[Infinitron]

It's basically a combatfag review. If there's anything I'd be concerned about if the Codex was a more "professional" publication and I was the editor, it would be that. The feminist trolling is just easily ignorable fluff. If you let it bother you, you're falling for an obvious trap.

This. Apparantly the Codex is easily baited.

The baiting is obvious. What it's doing in the news section in a "RPG Codex Retrospective Review" is less obvious which is what most are commenting on.

Some of the previous Codex spoof reviews have been hilarious, even the first Roguey review was mildly amusing. This is just fucking tedious now.

There are plenty of sites having boring discussions about feminism in games etc, plenty of trolling by Roguey on the forums here. Fine. But now we've got a pathetic discussion in the news section about alien "rape" and Sawyer's "obsession".

If this was the master plan then well done, but it hardly lives up the usual standards of Codex trolling (which is all we can judge it on as it's clearly not "news" and is pretty dismal as a straight review).

Verdict: Fail

LOL, you were baited too.

Read my sentence again. It's a combatfag review. It contains allusions to feminism, but it's not about feminism.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's basically a combatfag review. If there's anything I'd be concerned about if the Codex was a more "professional" publication and I was the editor, it would be that. The feminist trolling is just easily ignorable fluff. If you let it bother you, you're falling for an obvious trap.

This. Apparantly the Codex is easily baited.

The baiting is obvious. What it's doing in the news section in a "RPG Codex Retrospective Review" is less obvious which is what most are commenting on.

Some of the previous Codex spoof reviews have been hilarious, even the first Roguey review was mildly amusing. This is just fucking tedious now.

There are plenty of sites having boring discussions about feminism in games etc, plenty of trolling by Roguey on the forums here. Fine. But now we've got a pathetic discussion in the news section about alien "rape" and Sawyer's "obsession".

If this was the master plan then well done, but it hardly lives up the usual standards of Codex trolling (which is all we can judge it on as it's clearly not "news" and is pretty dismal as a straight review).
Verdict: Fail

LOL, you were baited too.

Read my sentence again. It's a combatfag review. It contains allusions to feminism, but it's not about feminism.

Agreed. I'm responding to the baiting, but it's hardly the centre-point of the review. And I seriously doubt that Rogeuy isn't extremely aware that we all expect her to accompany any commentary with a feminist reading, or that a third of the Codex get manchild-enraged by it, a third skim past it and another third find the reactions of the first third amusing. And as a straight review it's a good overview of the game's combat (given the nature of the game, I'd say a combatfag review is appropriate).

 

[Zeriel]

You can't argue it's baiting when Roguey actually believes these things. You want it to be trolling, but no one trolls this long and this hard and this obsessively out of pure entertainment value.

 

[evdk]

You can't argue it's baiting when Roguey actually believes these things. You want it to be trolling, but no one trolls this long and this hard and this obsessively out of pure entertainment value.

It's trolling, because Roguey's stances are retarded even taking actual feminist doctrine into account.

 

[Azrael the cat]

You can't argue it's baiting when Roguey actually believes these things. You want it to be trolling, but no one trolls this long and this hard and this obsessively out of pure entertainment value.

Most baiting involves things a person actually believes. It still counts as baiting because (a) I'm pretty sure Roguey is aware of the ineffacy of arguing on the internet, and especially the Codex, and that everyone knows her views, and (b) it's side-commentary to a review that is overwhelmingly about combat.

 

[Monty]

everyone knows her views

 

[Stainless Veteran]

You can't argue it's baiting when Roguey actually believes these things. You want it to be trolling, but no one trolls this long and this hard and this obsessively out of pure entertainment value.

It's trolling, because Roguey's stances are retarded even taking actual feminist doctrine into account.

Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that. I mean, have you seen those tards on tumblr?

 

[Zeriel]

Definition of White People Problems: saying you were "hurt" because "I had some bad sex, once".

 

[evdk]

"Manic Pixie Dream Princess"

I mean, come on.

 

[villain of the story]

Roguey only comments that there is an unusual amount of rape in Sawyer's writing. She doesn't really criticize him for it other than with his own words that writers should write about things they know.

Roguey insists that Sawyer could refuse to work on Aliens RPG but didn't because Roguey is rape-obsessed. What the fuck does Roguey think a game development company is; a fucking charity where anyone can choose what to work on and not, on a personal whim? There is not an ounce of sense in suggesting "Sawyer could refuse to work on it". Might as well suggest that Sawyer should leave Obsidian than work on a popular license with a superficial connection to rape. Why? Because RPAE!

Roguey is far more rape-obsessed than Sawyer might or might not be because Roguey hangs out here at The Codex where rape is a constantly popular subject in high demand, and is reflecting its own obsession on everything and everyone else.

But go ahead, tell Josh that you think he's obsessed about rape because he likes Aliens. If you like Aliens, you are rape-obsessed. That's a fact.

Not by itself it doesn't. I wrote about a consistent pattern of behavior.

I don't know what they did to you as a child and I almost feel sorry for you but one should not feed radical delusions with sympathy.