Editorial RPG Codex Retrospective: Roguey fights for social justice in Josh Sawyer's Icewind Dale II

[felipepepe]

Review actually convinced me to buy (and it's my first IE game expect PST).

You never played any Baldur's Gate?

 

[Roguey]

Can you tell us what exactly is so wrong in touching a subject of rape? Is it that only a feminist got a right to speak about it?

It's peculiar when someone can't not write it into everything he does. Like Alan Moore and his rape or Frank Miller and his whores. These have become memes.

Funny, because that's a much better review. Even if I disagree with it substantially, it's an actual review.

Mine is also a review.

Yes and 'Sawyer worked on Aliens he must be obsessed by Rape' and 'if you deliberately use this cheesy exploit it ruins the balance of the game' are not really legitimate criticisms of a game.

When game designers leave easy-outs through their sloppiness, people use them. I've seen so many people here complain about DA:O because of cold of cone, potions, and mana clash and Skyrim because of its easily-exploitable crafting. You can accidentally cheat with lingering song if you misclick on a song you didn't want to use while paused and then de-select it. Or accidentally activate the same song twice. I shouldn't have to go out of my way to unpause to avoid that.

Actually, the Aliens thing is a bit if a stretch, even for Roguey. Usually his trolling is a bit more subtle than that so he must have been struggling for trademark material in this case.

Context here is important.
"Time to work on Icewind Dale. How can I work rape into this?"
"Now to write the outline of Icewind Dale II. Man I'm going to put so much rape in here like you wouldn't believe."
"A mature story like The Black Hound needs rape. Think I'll have a woman abort it in the town square in front of everybody too."
"A chance to work on Aliens, one of my favorite movies about gay male rape? You better believe I'll take it!"
"Wow I get to work on Fallout again. Now I'll finally get to introduce Caesar's Legion in all their rapey glory. George, write a quest about rape."

Madlib this. Alternately, a future scene from Project Eternity:

Spoiler

Most of your combat 'analysis' is "First you fight this monster and this monster and this monster with this weapon, then you go to another room and fight this monster and that monster." E.g. the final battle, which you would think is pretty significant:

Unless you want to kill 10 innocent slaves, you'll end up having to take on a bunch of demons and a lesser deity who has 500 HP, fire immunity, and damage resistance to anything that isn't a +3-or-higher crushing weapon. The penultimate fight involves three blindness-casting half-dragons, two wizards, a cleric, another slayer knight, and a half-orc in a small area. The final battle has you facing a pre-buffed Isair and Madae (a sorcerer and a cleric, respectively) and a chaotic mess of summoned creatures (until you kill the summoner). Madae will cast Blasphemy at the start of both phases of the battle, so pre-buffing is a must if your party is mostly non-evil. They make for a more interesting final boss fight than Belhifet or Icasaracht, though they're not too difficult if you've mastered the system.

Pure description, nothing of interest. Just about the only detail is 'Madae will cast Blasphemy'.

Blasphemy is a big deal because, as I mentioned earlier in the review, there's no save, so your non-evil characters are stuck for one round. I also mentioned how the twins are pre-buffed with various spells, which is unique behavior that mirrors your own. That you'll have to deal with a never-ending swarm of summoned creatures until you find and kill the summoner is also pretty significant and the last time you come across something like that was back in Dragon's Eye in IWD. It's like you're not even reading.

However, what is actually worth the bother here? Did I really need to read what 'red fire shields' do, or the Manual's explanation to Executioner's Eyes?

You're being inconsistent. First you say I'm not being detailed enough and now you say I'm being too detailed? The description is there to explain the why. Why is this fight difficult and unique compared to others? Because you can't use cold damage or attack them in melee without taking a lot of damage yourself unless you prepare beforehand with fire resist spells. Why is this fight likewise? Because they have many of the same abilities you do and can both hit and crit against you more often than most other opponents.

You're right, and since the thread shows this was the only thing the Codex found worth talking about in this thread, I suppose it's time to ignore it and do other things with my time.

Shock, people who already have a negative opinion about me come into the review with their own confirmation bias.

 

[Roguey]

Review actually convinced me to buy (and it's my first IE game expect PST).

Playing about 10 hours of it made me really wish to play this game in a proper turn based engine (ToEE/KotC). What a shame.

Joined: Sep 1, 2003
Well. I'm sorry if my nonchalance regarding real time with pause steered you into wasting your time/money.

 

[Infinitron]

Review actually convinced me to buy (and it's my first IE game expect PST).

Playing about 10 hours of it made me really wish to play this game in a proper turn based engine (ToEE/KotC). What a shame.

Joined: Sep 1, 2003
Well. I'm sorry if my nonchalance regarding real time with pause steered you into wasting your time/money.

I can't believe he doesn't have you in his ignore list.

 

[Monty]

Context here is important.
"Time to work on Icewind Dale. How can I work rape into this?"
"Now to write the outline of Icewind Dale II. Man I'm going to put so much rape in here like you wouldn't believe."
"A mature story like The Black Hound needs rape. Think I'll have a woman abort it in the town square in front of everybody too."
"A chance to work on Aliens, one of my favorite movies about gay male rape? You better believe I'll take it!"
"Wow I get to work on Fallout again. Now I'll finally get to introduce Caesar's Legion in all their rapey glory. George, write a quest about rape."

Trying just a bit too hard there, usually your efforts are more subtle.

 

[Roguey]

I can't believe he doesn't have you in his ignore list.

Someone who literally just joined today already has me in their ignore list. Though they already have 14 17-and-counting other people there too so it's probably just an alt.

 

[crawlkill]

can no longer tell who's actually mad and who's pretending to be mad/will hide behind that defense if called out over being mad about nothing jesus only on the internet will people wail for six pages about how disinterested they are in something

it's not illegitimate to talk about there being a surprising amount of rapin going on in fiction. it's a real thing. almost universally male-on-female (or else it's just prison rape which I don't think I've seen played as anything but a joke anywhere but on Oz where it was just for middle-aged women to jerk off to because they're too shy to look up gay porn on their own because Jesus might notice), almost universally to point out how bad a bad guy is. or to give the chick a chance to show off how unflappable she is!!! my favorite was the NCR trooper in New Vegas who talked about being a lez in every line because that was how she'd responded to -her- rape. it's a little weird. I don't think it shows an "obsession," though. it's just one of those easy babyeating-style lazy storytelling tools that turn someone into A Villain and create a victim you can sympathize with, in the same way that in IE games the lazy storytelling solution to most problems is to murder whoever's causing them. it's not that Bioware was "obsessed with vigilante murder," just that easy go-tos will tend to bubble to the surface more frequently than more thoughtful storytelling. that doesn't make it less jarring, but it does make it less...indicative of personal traits on the part of the creator. but the Codex seems to be all about personal attacks on individual people participating in projects, so maybe that's a hopeless argument.

but expecting someone to quit or risk his job rather than working on a project semithemed around equal opportunity sexual violence is just silly. particularly with Alien and Aliens being two of the only scifi projects fucking ever to have a legit female lead (what else is there? Beyond Good and Evil? if anyone points to Kerrigan I will send angry dogs to their home). dipping your pen in the thoughtless tropey sexual violence against women well when you're trying to create drama != participating in a body horror project with overtones of gender-indiscriminate sexual violence. and I'm sure Roguey knows this and that's what makes me think this is just trollan.

 

[Average Manatee]

Funny, because that's a much better review. Even if I disagree with it substantially, it's an actual review.

Mine is also a review.

No, it really isn't. As Tigranes says and I said:

When can we expect the second sawyer review IWD2 fight-by-fight walkthrough IWD2 review?

People comment about the rape part because the only part of your article that is actually a review is the story section. And in it over half the lines and about 1200 vertical pixels of images are dedicated to rape. The majority of the rest of the article is not a review. And certainly not a retrospective, you don't simply add the word "retrospective" to any review about an old game. In many ways this is what I would expect to see from a child who, when asked to write a book report, copies the summary of the book straight from wikipedia and then adds at most 5% of their own content.

 

[crawlkill]

And in it over half the lines and about 1200 vertical pixels of images are dedicated to rape.

while I did not count your pixels I notice you've now spent several talking about talking about rape

why is this a thing if you don't give a shit about the review move on

suspect Infinitron sees the ridiculous unnecessary white cis hetero technocrat gynophobic patriarchal more-academic-buzzwords-that-are-kind-of-jokey-but-not-completely-without-a-point "stop talking about this because I don't care about it" brigade as an encouragement to frontpage this stuff. every time you tell someone to stop complaining about the casual depiction of sexual violence you're making their point for them. if it makes someone uncomfortable, well, you're not going to de-uncomfortable them by telling them you don't care, and by doing so you turn them into much more of a victim. if you don't give a shit about someone else's discomfort, which is perfectly valid, nobody's got time or inclination to care about every problem in the world, just ignore it.

as to why you give a shit about whether a review of a ten-year-old game 90% of the readers have already played has solid qualities as a review...I think there are more fundamental issues with posting reviews of decade-old titles the entire audience has already played than whether they're cohesive and comprehensive or not

why am I campaigning for reasonable behavior on the internet so much wasted time

 

[Infinitron]

crawlkill In all honesty, the reason we're frontpaging this stuff is because we're impressed and amused by Roguey's dedication and thoroughness in dissecting these games. Most people may not enjoy the way he describes combat (including myself, to be honest) but it's so goddamn nerdy-obsessive that I just love it, and I think it may provide value to some people.

 

[Monty]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

 

[Surf Solar]

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

it's so goddamn nerdy-obsessive that I just love it, and I think it may provide value to some people.

Like me for instance. I always like to read about how others experience games I know well, not in spite of the fact that I played said games to death, but because of it.

 

[crawlkill]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

ignoring people talking about a problem they perceive that you don't is a civil way of abstaining from the conversation. ignoring people who're shoveling abuse on someone talking about a problem the one party perceives and the other doesn't is enabling assholery. not that objecting seems to do any good, either, but at least the effort was made.

edit: of course Roguey accusing Sawyer of being obsessed with rape could also be seen as assholery that deserves to be confronted. eh. whatever. no justice, just us.

 

[eric__s]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

The comments bother me too, especially the egregiously hateful garbage like the post I highlighted earlier. We tolerate this in General Discussion because General Discussion is the place where we quarantine idiots, but it's unacceptable in News Forum, which is the face of RPG Codex and the forum outsiders are most likely to see. I come to RPG Codex because there are a dozen or so smart and interesting people who have insight on games that I can learn from. The comments in this topic aren't the kind of discussion that invites smart, insightful people, it's the kind of discussion that invites more idiots. I don't think this site needs more moderation outside of the News Forum, but when there's actual bigotry on the first page of a front page topic, we do need to reevaluate our approach to moderation.

 

[Infinitron]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

The comments bother me too, especially the egregiously hateful garbage like the post I highlighted earlier. We tolerate this in General Discussion because General Discussion is the place where we quarantine idiots, but it's unacceptable in News Forum, which is the face of RPG Codex and the forum outsiders are most likely to see. I come to RPG Codex because there are a dozen or so smart and interesting people who have insight on games that I can learn from. The comments in this topic aren't the kind of discussion that invites smart, insightful people, it's the kind of discussion that invites more idiots. I don't think this site needs more moderation outside of the News Forum, but when there's actual bigotry on the first page of a front page topic, we do need to reevaluate our approach to moderation.

Who's this "we" you're talking about, son?

The truth is that the news forum is actually among the least moderated forums on the Codex, since historically it's been a very much on-topic kind of place, and it still is for the most part.

 

[Lord Trousersnake]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

ignoring people talking about a problem they perceive that you don't is a civil way of abstaining from the conversation. ignoring people who're shoveling abuse on someone talking about a problem the one party perceives and the other doesn't is enabling assholery. not that objecting seems to do any good, either, but at least the effort was made.

edit: of course Roguey accusing Sawyer of being obsessed with rape could also be seen as assholery that deserves to be confronted. eh. whatever. no justice, just us.

Hiver called, he wants his lance back.

Jeez, there are still people out there who take Roguey seriously.

 

[crawlkill]

Jeez, there are still people out there who take Roguey seriously.

I'm really just taking the douchey responses seriously, I don't know what to make of Roguey either way

 

[Sulimo]

Relevant?

 

[Gozma]

I kinda want to comment in this thread but I have nothing to say about IWD. IWD is actually perfect for this kind of thing because no one cares about the game. It's like a Freudian criticism of Teen Wolf.

 

[Infinitron]

I kinda want to comment in this thread but I have nothing to say about IWD. IWD is actually perfect for this kind of thing because no one cares about the game. It's like a Freudian criticism of Teen Wolf.

Well, some people cared enough about IWD1 to put it in the Codex top ten

 

[Gozma]

IE!! <shakes fist>

 

[Roguey]

but expecting someone to quit or risk his job rather than working on a project semithemed around equal opportunity sexual violence is just silly.

I don't think so. Getaway drivers and lookouts are charged with the same crime as their cohorts. Accessories to crimes are given lesser punishments, but punishments nonetheless. One is not entitled to a job in a creative field and complicity is wrong.

particularly with Alien and Aliens being two of the only scifi projects fucking ever to have a legit female lead

Gets no points because the climax of Alien is sexist and stupid as hell.

People comment about the rape part because the only part of your article that is actually a review is the story section. And in it over half the lines and about 1200 vertical pixels of images are dedicated to rape. The majority of the rest of the article is not a review. And certainly not a retrospective, you don't simply add the word "retrospective" to any review about an old game. In many ways this is what I would expect to see from a child who, when asked to write a book report, copies the summary of the book straight from wikipedia and then adds at most 5% of their own content.

First section: Set-up. Second section: Listing, praising and criticizing various system changes. Third section: Praising the UI, criticizing the art, music, and one cinematic. Fourth section: Stating the the writing is better, providing examples here and throughout the rest of the review. Fifth section: Stating combat is better. Providing a long list of examples to support that statement. Criticizing the parts I hate (too much combat in chapter one, battle squares, Fell Wood maze, monastery puzzles, and the mindless slog of chapter 5 in particular). Sixth section: conclusion.

 

[crawlkill]

I don't think so. Getaway drivers and lookouts are charged with the same crime as their cohorts. Accessories to crimes are given lesser punishments, but punishments nonetheless. One is not entitled to a job in a creative field and complicity is wrong.

You see an overreliance on rape as a narrative device equated with a crime.
>see point
You want to see what?
>see other posters' point
What do you want to see other posters' point?
>see other posters' point about Roguey
You see the other posters' point about Roguey.

 

[MasPingon]

crawlkill: If these comments bother you so much I suggest you ignore them and move on.

The comments bother me too, especially the egregiously hateful garbage like the post I highlighted earlier. We tolerate this in General Discussion because General Discussion is the place where we quarantine idiots, but it's unacceptable in News Forum, which is the face of RPG Codex and the forum outsiders are most likely to see. I come to RPG Codex because there are a dozen or so smart and interesting people who have insight on games that I can learn from. The comments in this topic aren't the kind of discussion that invites smart, insightful people, it's the kind of discussion that invites more idiots. I don't think this site needs more moderation outside of the News Forum, but when there's actual bigotry on the first page of a front page topic, we do need to reevaluate our approach to moderation.

Oh, you are upset because f-word bothers you. Being so open minded and liberal(/edit - Codex can't stand the word:patriot: ) doesn't stop you from calling other an idiot and bigot. I suppose it's because you can't stand hateful garbage(which is absolutely not-a-hate-speech). Just another pretentius faggot