Review RPG Codex Review: Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear

[Dexter]

I haven't really been following this game/expansion, but reading this thread now made me think of the colossal waste going on in the gaming industry. You have this great engine with its huge collection of assets in IE. It already has a combat system better than most stuff out there, an entire pre-made ruleset, a giant collection of art assets for all types of monsters, items, characters, buildings, etc. So what's the point of companies like Obsidian developing their own engines/technologies/assets to produce similar type isometric games and running out of funds and having to cut content as with PoE, when they could just license IE from Bioware/D&D and use pre-made stuff to focus on their area of expertise (writing/quest design/C&C) and produce some gem of an isometric game? Is it just so they can say their game is 3D? Do people who buy those types of RPGs even care? Would the licensing costs be prohibitive? Makes no sense to me.

I don't think I'd mind. Iterating on the same technology and releasing different games using the same technology has been happening both in RPGs and in other genres (FPS, "Adventure" games/Quests), and some of the best games in those genres have actually been made exactly with reused tech. I won't list non-rpg examples because I don't want to devolve this into an argument was game B better than game A.

Regarding RPGs - I guess you wouldn't say Divinity:OSII using an updated D:OS tech is a mistake? Or FO2 using the same engine as FO produced a worse RPG?

Fallout/Fallout 2 came out 1997/1998, Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate 2 came out in 1998/2000 respectively. It makes sense to use the same technology and assets from a Prequel to make a Sequel or Spin-off, especially when they are at most 1-2 years apart. It doesn't make sense to resurrect an engine from almost 20 years ago that was running at 640x480 and made use of sprites for characters to make new games now since a lot of things changed about both hardware, software and inherent software development since then. It makes sense to make new games in the style of back then and draw inspiration. It doesn't make sense to use the technology from then.

As for Baldur's Gate: Enchanted Edition, everyone involved with it deserves to die in a fiery plane crash. They should have been disregarded and spit on by everyone the moment they came along and changed the original cinematics, added Blur filters to the game, made shitty fan-fiction level additions to characters and added "romances" nobody asked them to and fucked up the UI. If they wanted to make an "Enhanced Edition" of the game, the only things they should've done is bring the original Up-to-Date technologically, not add their own retarded shit and they should've never started with that if they didn't want to do it "right": http://steamcommunity.com/app/228280/discussions/0/864957182873204516/

The only thing they needed to have done for an "Enhanced Edition" was to improve usability, upgrade the technology somewhat, improve on Multiplayer and all that kind of stuff, with the most important thing probably being making the game support High Definition. Instead they decided to shit all over its legacy. Nobody would have given them even a quarter of the amount of hate if they just decided to take the engine and make their own thing uncoupled from the original trilogy instead of deciding that they can iterate and "improve" on a classic (much less people would have likely bought it though).

Imagine some no-name director or group of film students and has-beens acquiring the rights to some of the classics of movie history (insert your favorite classic movie here) and deciding that they can rewrite their plots, replace parts of the movie with hand-drawn intermezzos and blur the entire movie horribly because they "couldn't find the original film material" and decided to work from a DivX rip instead and update the characters for "contemporary audiences" and political issues? Then they went out of their way to replace the Original with their shit-smeared "Enchanted Edition" because they did such a great job and obviously deserve all that moneeh. Do you think anyone would tell them anything else than to fuck off and stuff their mouths with their own shit?

 

[AwesomeButton]

As for Baldur's Gate: Enchanted Edition, everyone involved with it deserves to die in a fiery plane crash. They should have been disregarded and spit on by everyone the moment they came along and changed the original cinematics, added Blur filters to the game, made shitty fan-fiction level additions to characters and added "romances" nobody asked them to and fucked up the UI.

It makes sense to make new games in the style of back then and draw inspiration. It doesn't make sense to use the technology from then.

Do you think PoE managed to "draw inspiration" and improve on the formula? I'll be generous -- please base take not their "1.0" version but the latest 3.02 version as a reference point.

 

[Lurker King]

Fallout/Fallout 2 came out 1997/1998, Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate 2 came out in 1998/2000 respectively. It makes sense to use the same technology and assets from a Prequel to make a Sequel or Spin-off, especially when they are at most 1-2 years apart. It doesn't make sense to resurrect an engine from almost 20 years ago that was running at 640x480 and made use of sprites for characters to make new games now since a lot of things changed about both hardware, software and inherent software development since then. It makes sense to make new games in the style of back then and draw inspiration. It doesn't make sense to use the technology from then.

​

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Fallout/Fallout 2 came out 1997/1998, Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate 2 came out in 1998/2000 respectively. It makes sense to use the same technology and assets from a Prequel to make a Sequel or Spin-off, especially when they are at most 1-2 years apart. It doesn't make sense to resurrect an engine from almost 20 years ago that was running at 640x480 and made use of sprites for characters to make new games now since a lot of things changed about both hardware, software and inherent software development since then. It makes sense to make new games in the style of back then and draw inspiration. It doesn't make sense to use the technology from then.

As for Baldur's Gate: Enchanted Edition, everyone involved with it deserves to die in a fiery plane crash. They should have been disregarded and spit on by everyone the moment they came along and changed the original cinematics, added Blur filters to the game, made shitty fan-fiction level additions to characters and added "romances" nobody asked them to and fucked up the UI. If they wanted to make an "Enhanced Edition" of the game, the only things they should've done is bring the original Up-to-Date technologically, not add their own retarded shit and they should've never started with that if they didn't want to do it "right": http://steamcommunity.com/app/228280/discussions/0/864957182873204516/

The only thing they needed to have done for an "Enhanced Edition" was to improve usability, upgrade the technology somewhat, improve on Multiplayer and all that kind of stuff, with the most important thing probably being making the game support High Definition. Instead they decided to shit all over its legacy. Nobody would have given them even a quarter of the amount of hate if they just decided to take the engine and make their own thing uncoupled from the original trilogy instead of deciding that they can iterate and "improve" on a classic (much less people would have likely bought it though).

Imagine some no-name director or group of film students and has-beens acquiring the rights to some of the classics of movie history (insert your favorite classic movie here) and deciding that they can rewrite their plots, replace parts of the movie with hand-drawn intermezzos and blur the entire movie horribly because they "couldn't find the original film material" and decided to work from a DivX rip instead and update the characters for "contemporary audiences" and political issues? Then they went out of their way to replace the Original with their shit-smeared "Enchanted Edition" because they did such a great job and obviously deserve all that moneeh. Do you think anyone would tell them anything else than to fuck off and stuff their mouths with their own shit?

Well, again, I think it matters who you are talking about. If it's a studio that specializes in developing cool game engines with new features, or gameplay innovation, sure, it makes no sense to reuse an old engine. But when has Obsidian ever been about those things? I love some of their games, but I can't really think of a single truly innovative thing they ever did in terms of gameplay. The reason I love them is because Obsidian is great at writing and interesting quest design, and world design. So for those things, re-using an existing engine makes perfect sense, especially considering that this particular engine (IE) is miles better than the shit they typically reuse (NWN engine, KotOR engine, Fallout 3 engine, ME engine).

 

[ArchAngel]

SoZ

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Every character in BG2 is a stereotype. Edwin is the arrogant wizard villain. Minsc is the mongoloid fighter with good heart. And so on. Even the voice acting is bad with these horrible accents. In the video you posted I found this marvelous sentence from Minsc “The red wizard risks great harm. Boo is sensitive, and may not just go for the eyes!” Bunch of silly caricatures made for teenagers. If you don’t like BG2 when you are a teenager, you don’t have a heart. If you like BG2 when you are not a teenager, you don’t have a brain. The sad thing is that even when they try to implement serious stuff they are trown all over the place without any logic or relevance. Right at the beginning of Irenicus’ dungeon, you will find a genie making an indirect reference to the prisoner’s dilemma. That is awesome, right! Not really. Whatever answer you choose, you will have to kill things. The random stuff that is supposed to mean something is just a poor excuse to kill things. In fact, the whole game is is just an excuse to kill things. Out, out, linear cRPG! Wrote by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.

I like how you extrapolate from two extreme examples from a roster of over 15 companions and expect everybody to just eat your shit at face value. Keldorn, Cernd, Jaheira, Valygar, Anomen, Mazzy, Aerie, Haer'dalis, Yoshimo are all charicatures. Sure thing, bro. I guess when you're preaching to the choir you can just say whatever and people won't question you.

And what if other characters follow certain archetypes when they're well executed? Yes, Korgan is a bloodthirsty axe-wielding dwarf, but he's not a mindless monster who kicks puppies and kills good people on sight or just because they're good. In fact, he gets along well with (and respects) a lot of good-aligned characters and has interesting interactions with them. Yes, Edwin follows a vague arrogant evil wizard trope, but he's entertaining, funny and has his own personality quirks. Not to mention that, as you implied, this kind of trope is usually reserved for villains - just being able to have him as a companion is (or at least was) already a twist of sorts on RPG convention.

Us "teenagers" will keep playing our fun D&D dungeon romp, you keep doing you in whatever kind of videogame you consider to be cerebral enough for your superior intellect.

 

[Lurker King]

I like how you extrapolate from two extreme examples from a roster of over 15 companions and expect everybody to just eat your shit at face value. Keldorn, Cernd, Jaheira, Valygar, Anomen, Mazzy, Aerie, Haer'dalis, Yoshimo are all charicatures. Sure thing, bro. I guess when you're preaching to the choir you can just say whatever and people won't question you.

And what if other characters follow certain archetypes when they're well executed? Yes, Korgan is a bloodthirsty axe-wielding dwarf, but he's not a mindless monster who kicks puppies and kills good people on sight or just because they're good. In fact, he gets along well with (and respects) a lot of good-aligned characters and has interesting interactions with them. Yes, Edwin follows a vague arrogant evil wizard trope, but he's entertaining, funny and has his own personality quirks. Not to mention that, as you implied, this kind of trope is usually reserved for villains - just being able to have him as a companion is (or at least was) already a twist of sorts on RPG convention.

Us "teenagers" will keep playing our fun D&D dungeon romp, you keep doing you in whatever kind of videogame you consider to be cerebral enough for your superior intellect.

I understand where are you coming from, but ask yourself. Would you enjoy a movie or a book today, with that kind of writing? I doubt it. I think you just suspended your actual standards when you talk about games because at some point you decided that games shouldn’t be judged as high art or because you have a moral obligation to defend your fond memories. I have fond memories of a bunch of kid things too, you know. However, I would hate to watch these things today, because they are pretty bad. If you did not stop in time, your standards get higher as you get older. Unless you have an irrationalist or non-cognitive stance towards fiction in gaming.

 

[Mustawd]

I loved Voltron as a kid, but it's p. fucking horrible to watch now.

 

[Lurker King]

If we have an irrationalist or non-cognitive stance towards fiction in gaming, everything comes easy. The plot holes, the bad writing, the stupid stereotypes, all will be forgiven if you have uber broken combat system with hundreds of quests, because that popamoles mess is what fun looks like. If other games have combat system with less stuff, we will have to blame the storyfags, the guys that complained about bad writing, lack of choices and things that don’t make sense. Their rationality and cognitive attitude are killing the fun. So, what are the assumptions here:

(1) cRPGs shouldn’t have any pretension to be good art. They are mindless entertainment. The more overpowered items and spells to use, the better. You are just running around and killing stuff, and that’s it.

(2) Along with popamoles, players that complained about bad writing and lack of choices are one of the main culprits for the decline in cRPGs. As soon as developers decided to implement reactivity and good writing, everything suffers. What we want is simpler linear stuff and things to kill.

(3) Ergo, rationality and seriousness in gaming is killing the fun.


This mindset with this poor argumentation sounds pretty irrational to me. What we should want is:


(1') Better writing and reactivity. Not stupid BG2 cringe writing.

(2') More detailed and sophisticated combat systems. Not the popamole mess of the likes of BG2.

(3') Better standards for cRPGs. We should never use games such as BG2 as a standard for anything in cRPGs. They're popamole games in sheeps clothing.

 

[Mustawd]

(3') Never use games such as BG2 as a standard for anything in cRPGs. They're popamole games in sheeps clothing.

 

[Mrowak]

(3') Never use games such as BG2 as a standard for anything in cRPGs. They're popamole games in sheeps clothing.

* unless you mean fun linear campaign with some stellar examples of encouter design, and great, albeit simplistic combat system.

 

[Manmower]

Every character in BG2 is a stereotype.

But that's the point, you colossal cockmongler. Nobody wants to plave 'average'. PoE is a watered-down game with 'realistic' companions, and look how fun that is. And are you seriously claiming a character like Eder or Sagani is more fun to quest with and dick around with than one like Morte or Dak'kon? Christ, you and the Balancemaster should just marry each other.

As for Baldur's Gate: Enchanted Edition, everyone involved with it deserves to die in a fiery plane crash.

Yup. It's not that they tried and fuck up, it's that they're retarded and pretentious talentless hacks who tried, fucked up, and think they did good. Fuck that company, and everyone who works there.

I loved Voltron as a kid, but it's p. fucking horrible to watch now.

Oh man, I couldn't agree more. Tried watching some old shit like Teknoman and Voltron a while ago, but it was so cringy I never made it past a couple of episodes. Fucking nostalgia, ruining everything since 2014.

 

[ArchAngel]

Better question is would you rather adventure with Aloth or Edwin?
Minsc or Eder? Cernd (werewolf shapeshifter) (or Jaheira) or whatever the crappy druid is in PoE? HAER'DALIS or Kana?
Valygar or ranger chick from PoE? Keldorn (or Anomen) or the Paladin bird?
Only Durance or Viconia is a real duel.. and Mother probably beats Aerie :D

 

[Manmower]

Overall, BG2 is simply a more entertaining game than PoE. Autists on the 'Dex can sperg out about inanities until the sun goes dark, but nothing will change the fact that PoE is an inferior game.

 

[Zeriel]

The review probably took some effort for which Delterius is thanked, but it isnt the hard hitting brutal Codex roast this game deserves. It is a mellow flower power mainstream piece of writing, maybe an attempt to get into the game journo bizz for reals?

Where is the bleeding edginess, the deserved bloody butchering of the writing, the holy codex crusade against the sjw retards who deemed the originals (and their customers) sexist? Beamdog may aswell copy paste some text and use it in their marketing, or put blurbs of it on their Collectors Edition box.

If you don't like it, write your own review.

That would require playing it. I think there will be a natural self-selection problem with any Codex review of Beamdog products. People with any taste at all wouldn't go through the pain of playing them.

 

[Lurker King]

I loved Voltron as a kid, but it's p. fucking horrible to watch now.

Oh man, I couldn't agree more. Tried watching some old shit like Teknoman and Voltron a while ago, but it was so cringy I never made it past a couple of episodes. Fucking nostalgia, ruining everything since 2014.

PoE is a watered-down game with 'realistic' companions, and look how fun that is.

He says that he can’t enjoy stereotype characters anymore, but then complains that PoE NPCs aren’t fun because they are more realistic. Zero coherence! The problem with PoE NPCs is not that they are more mature than Bioware NPCs, but the fact they present too much information about themselves in a short time. This is a matter of how the information was presented, not about the content of information. Even with this problem, Durance is without question one of the best NPCs of all time.

Better question is would you rather adventure with Aloth or Edwin?
Minsc or Eder? Cernd (werewolf shapeshifter) (or Jaheira) or whatever the crappy druid is in PoE? HAER'DALIS or Kana?
Valygar or ranger chick from PoE? Keldorn (or Anomen) or the Paladin bird?
Only Durance or Viconia is a real duel.. and Mother probably beats Aerie :D

This.

Overall, BG2 is simply a more entertaining game than PoE. Autists on the 'Dex can sperg out about inanities until the sun goes dark, but nothing will change the fact that PoE is an inferior game.

This is like saying that human excrement is better than dog shit, or that leprosy is better than HIV. Both are terrible.

 

[Trashos]

Better question is would you rather adventure with Aloth or Edwin?
Minsc or Eder? Cernd (werewolf shapeshifter) (or Jaheira) or whatever the crappy druid is in PoE? HAER'DALIS or Kana?
Valygar or ranger chick from PoE? Keldorn (or Anomen) or the Paladin bird?
Only Durance or Viconia is a real duel.. and Mother probably beats Aerie :D

Minsc
Jaheira
Kana
Sagani
Keldorn
tie
Grieving Mother

Also Edwin > Aloth. But it doesn't matter, it ia a very close game.

I think my point here is that the characters fit the story and the general concept in both games.

 

[Mustawd]

Better question is would you rather adventure with Aloth or Edwin?
Minsc or Eder? Cernd (werewolf shapeshifter) (or Jaheira) or whatever the crappy druid is in PoE? HAER'DALIS or Kana?
Valygar or ranger chick from PoE? Keldorn (or Anomen) or the Paladin bird?
Only Durance or Viconia is a real duel.. and Mother probably beats Aerie :D

The issue with that question is that it, like PoE vs BG2, is an unfair comparison. When Nostalgia goes up against the present day, Nostalgia will win the majority of the time.

A better way would be to take someone who never played either and ask them that question.


EDIT: After further review, this was a dumb thing to say. Move along.

 

[ArchAngel]

Better question is would you rather adventure with Aloth or Edwin?
Minsc or Eder? Cernd (werewolf shapeshifter) (or Jaheira) or whatever the crappy druid is in PoE? HAER'DALIS or Kana?
Valygar or ranger chick from PoE? Keldorn (or Anomen) or the Paladin bird?
Only Durance or Viconia is a real duel.. and Mother probably beats Aerie :D

The issue with that question is that it, like PoE vs BG2, is an unfair comparison. When Nostalgia goes up against the present day, Nostalgia will win the majority of the time.

A better way would be to take someone who never played either and ask them that question.

That is bullshit. PoE NPCs are better than most NWN1 and NWN2 NPCs. Those games are old enough to also fall under "nostalgia" argument.

 

[Mustawd]

Yeah, never mind. I admit it was a dumb argument, or even if correct, it is irrelevant as almost everything would apply on the codex. I blame my lack of a breakfast on that post.

 

[MrMarbles]

Every character in BG2 is a stereotype. Edwin is the arrogant wizard villain. Minsc is the mongoloid fighter with good heart. And so on. Even the voice acting is bad with these horrible accents. In the video you posted I found this marvelous sentence from Minsc “The red wizard risks great harm. Boo is sensitive, and may not just go for the eyes!” Bunch of silly caricatures made for teenagers.

"Keldorn Firecam thought his travels with <CHARNAME> marked the end of his active career, both as an adventurer and in service to the Order. He retired to Athkatla, hoping to live in as much peace as an old warrior can expect, but the call to serve came one last time. It was years later, and Amn was besieged by giants. In his 60th winter, Keldorn and five knights held a strategic pass until the main Amnish force could arrive. He won the day, but his wounds were severe and the old paladin fell on the battlefield. As his knights watched, the hand of Torm descended upon the scene, and when it departed, Keldorn was gone. From that day, visions of the True God were accompanied by the stalwart ghostly form of Keldorn at his right hand."

Sounds good to me. You're never too old for nerd chills.

 

[ArchAngel]

I also got the chills but from that awesome music

 

[Lurker King]

Minsc is better than Éder

​

One of the first dialogues with each character:

[Minsc] Minsc and Boo are Minsc and Boo, and we shal not be separated. Shall we go? The butts of evil await my bootprint!

[Player] Right you are, Minsc! Where'er evil dost lay its dirty feet, we shall mop the floor with its buttocks!

[Edér] Seventeen-and-a-half. Could be eighteen depending on how you count the dwarf woman.

[Player] I'm sorry?

[Edér] The dwarf woman. You were trying to figure out whether to count her as a full person.

 

[Lurker King]

It seems like the writers behind BG2 are effeminate shitty posters who don’t read books. Minsc looks like a NPC designed to satisfy a bizarre type of fag fantasy. He is a strong warrior, but delicate like a flower. Look:

And some players still got surprised that DA:O has so much sex and romances in it!

Sounds good to me. You're never too old for nerd chills.

Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, the game already ends at the point. How about the rest of the game? The quests that all look the same, the idiotic banters.

I also got the chills but from that awesome music

That I can't argue with. The soundtrack is awesome.

 

[pippin]

Minsc was one of the characters they got from the pnp sessions they used to make. And this kind of people actually read books, but they only read smutty fantasy and stuff like that.