Review RPG Codex Review: Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear

[BlackAdderBG]

Eder and Durance are the only likable characters in Pillars.

 

[pippin]

Eder was bland as fuck, at least the Mother was something different.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Eder is a bro and having older brother going away from home is personally relatable.GM...was...boring... ... ...

 

[pippin]

His personal quest was the least interesting of all just because of that. I don't want "relatable" stuff anymore, that's why Durance and the Mother were at least interesting, they told more stuff about the world we were living in instead of just being Average Warrior with Feelings #243432432.

 

[Manmower]

He says that he can’t enjoy stereotype characters anymore, but then complains that PoE NPCs aren’t fun because they are more realistic. Zero coherence! The problem with PoE NPCs is not that they are more mature than Bioware NPCs, but the fact they present too much information about themselves in a short time. This is a matter of how the information was presented, not about the content of information. Even with this problem, Durance is without question one of the best NPCs of all time.

It's fun twisting other people's words, innit? Over-the-top stereotypes >>> boring cardboard. The former is always preferable to the latter. Always. Furthermore, the problem with PoE's CPCs (NPCs are non-player chars, chucklefuck) is that they're devoid of anything which could make them interesting. They suck narratively, mechanically, visually, thematically, and stylistically. They're garbage. Offal. Excrement. Just like your inane diatribes. And Durance is most definitely not one of the best NPCs of all time. I know you wish you could deepthroat Avellone, but it ain't happening, kiddo. Not that he'd let an intellectual leper like you near his junk anyway.

This is like saying that human excrement is better than dog shit, or that leprosy is better than HIV. Both are terrible.

Yes, because pedestalizing C&C orgies like AoD that look and play like 1999 Russian shovelware is the epitome of good taste. You're the Codex equivalent of lower-middle-class WASPS; a pretentious twat larping as a champaigne socialist. Go die in a fire.

 

[l3loodAngel]

I understand where are you coming from, but ask yourself. Would you enjoy a movie or a book today, with that kind of writing? I doubt it. I think you just suspended your actual standards when you talk about games because at some point you decided that games shouldn’t be judged as high art or because you have a moral obligation to defend your fond memories.

First of all games are not art, they are entertainment and colaboration of multiple people. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with BG/BG2 story and writting. You misspoke just admit it and move on...

 

[AwesomeButton]

A better way would be to take someone who never played either and ask them that question.

My girlfriend had no experience with IE games. Played PoE first, then I gave her BG2. She liked BG2 a lot better, though she was getting killed in every other fight.

 

[Lurker King]

Eder was bland as fuck, at least the Mother was something different.

He was bland, but at least he was not colorfully annoying and all over the place with stupid banters. I prefer a bland, but normal, NPC over a stupid NPC any day.

First of all games are not art, they are entertainment and colaboration of multiple people.

All forms of entertainment are works of art. When people say in a confused manner they want entertainment and not art, probably because they wrongly think that art is a laudatory term, what they really mean is that they don’t want sophisticated art. You can have superficial art for less intelligent and demanding individuals, and sophisticated art for more intelligent and demanding individuals. For individuals who belong in the first group, high art is boring. It takes so much effort that they can’t get into it. In fact, sometimes even individuals who naturally belong to second group feel compelled to act in an anti-intellectual and less sophisticated manner, whether because they want to fit in a social group and be popular, or because they believed in irrationalist ideology, or because they are afraid to look elitist or smug. Of course, they are a bunch of cowards with no personality.

 

[pippin]

A better way would be to take someone who never played either and ask them that question.

My girlfriend had no experience with IE games. Played PoE first, then I gave her BG2. She liked BG2 a lot better, though she was getting killed in every other fight.

PoE is a game for people who already know crpgs though. In BG2 things happen a lot faster and you don't have to babysit everything by default, you can turn off AI and increase difficulty in bg2 if you feel like adding a challenge, but PoE's main flaws are more deep than that.

 

[AwesomeButton]

PoE is a game for people who already know crpgs though.

Lol, that must be why the average difficulty is so unbearably high

In BG2 things happen a lot faster

In BG2 things happen a lot SLOWER! Everyone is on a personal initiative round of 6 seconds +/- a random second. In PoE the average recovery time between attacks is 1.5-3 sec

I advised her to command all party members manually, to get a better idea of how combat is played.

The reason she was getting killed often were mostly noob-related -- she wasn't used to the fact that clicking a healing potion won't use it immediately, after the first potion. She wasn't used to having to maneuver and kite when the enemies would chase her weaker AC party members. She had gotten used to PoE's engagement. And she underestimated the damage-dealing capabilities of ranged enemies.

 

[Trashos]

Minsc is better than Éder

​

One of the first dialogues with each character:

[Minsc] Minsc and Boo are Minsc and Boo, and we shal not be separated. Shall we go? The butts of evil await my bootprint!

[Player] Right you are, Minsc! Where'er evil dost lay its dirty feet, we shall mop the floor with its buttocks!

[Edér] Seventeen-and-a-half. Could be eighteen depending on how you count the dwarf woman.

[Player] I'm sorry?

[Edér] The dwarf woman. You were trying to figure out whether to count her as a full person.

I like Eder, don't get me wrong. I like his quest, dilemmas, and his eventual progress in figuring things out for himself. But he is competing with a major attraction of a classic franchise, and it's an unfair fight. Minsc is a simpleton, but the number of Minsc quotes that made history is insane.

Anyway, Minsc should probably be paired with Hiravias, as they are both there for the comic relief. But then I wouldn't want to pair Eder with Korgan either.

PS. I wouldn't say "better". I would say "more memorable".

 

[pippin]

The fact that a recent BG comic was centered around Minsc says it all imo. This was before SoD and everything. Minsc really stands out in BG1 and that's saying a lot because the canon party is made of really colorful characters.

 

[Space Insect]

I always felt that BG2 was going for a sort of cheesy PnP feel with its characters. All of them were septereotypes and all of them were over the top. It seemed to me that it suceeded in that so-bad-its-good PnP feel despite the poor writing because they knew that they wanted that PnP feel.

 

[Jack]

 

[Zeriel]

I always felt that BG2 was going for a sort of cheesy PnP feel with its characters. All of them were septereotypes and all of them were over the top. It seemed to me that it suceeded in that so-bad-its-good PnP feel despite the poor writing because they knew that they wanted that PnP feel.

People also exaggerate. The majority of BG1's NPCs were relatively average. It was only in BG2 that they dialed it up to 11 by having them talk constantly and be in your face about everything. And there's balance there. To counterbalance Aerie, you have the reasonable De'Arnise lady. Keldorn is a less-irritating version of Anomen, etc.

The fact that a recent BG comic was centered around Minsc says it all imo. This was before SoD and everything. Minsc really stands out in BG1 and that's saying a lot because the canon party is made of really colorful characters.

Minsc was always a shit character, and even when it came out a lot of people hated him.

 

[pippin]

Minsc was always a shit character, and even when it came out a lot of people hated him.

I wasn't saying he was good though.

 

[Tacgnol]

Minsc was always a shit character, and even when it came out a lot of people hated him.

I wasn't saying he was good though.

The only thing I enjoyed about Minsc in both BG1/2 was sticking him with evil characters.

Characters like Edwin and Viconia taking the piss out of him was quite amusing.

 

[Lurker King]

Secondly, there is nothing wrong with BG/BG2 story and writting. You misspoke just admit it and move on...

I think that some players decide to consciously lower their personal standards when they are talking about writing in games, comics, mangas, animes and blockbuster movies. They love the medium so much that they have to rationalize all the intolerable nonsense in order to justify their personal investment. Instead of criticizing the infantile things in the medium in the hopes of improving it, they bow to it, and end up propagating their worst stereotypes.

I always felt that BG2 was going for a sort of cheesy PnP feel with its characters. All of them were septereotypes and all of them were over the top. It seemed to me that it suceeded in that so-bad-its-good PnP feel despite the poor writing because they knew that they wanted that PnP feel.

Now ask yourself - Why is that? I think this just reflects how most AD&D players are crude individuals. They enjoy infantile banters, killing things and taking overpowered loot with an epic soundtrack. This is what it’s a RPG for most AD&D fans.

 

[Turjan]

Meh, BG2 isn't about the writing, it's about tactical combat. While I've never been a fan of Minsc, I liked Edwin on the wacky side, or Keldorn as a more serious character. BG2 isn't without reason consistently in the Codex top 5 CRPG list.

The first BG tried to emulate a typical D&D campaign, where the DM's story usually doesn't survive the players' actions, except in a most general sense. A good DM can probably still get a few impressing scenes in, but high literature it isn't. And it's still fun. Compare this with games with even less story, like most of the M&M games. Does anyone play those because of their awesome tales or characters? I don't think so.

BG2 has more character, and that's probably the reason why it fares better. It's a well-rounded package. For being one of the Codex favorites, it may not have any of those outstanding features like Fallout or PS:T, but it doesn't have any of their flaws, either.

 

[purpleblob]

I personally think BG2 is a whole lot better game than PoE as a whole package. Not sure why some of you concentrate in one particular aspect of the game.

 

[Lurker King]

Meh, BG2 isn't about the writing, it's about tactical combat

But there is nothing tactical about it, even if you consider the hardcounters and spells. “Oh, those Mind Flayers are so difficult! What I’m gonna do? This game is so hardcore I can’t take it”. Open the spell book and look. “Ok, I have this overpowered spell called “Chaotic Commands”. I think that will do”. Make mashed potatoes with mind flayers. And I’m not even considering that the player can kill the same enemies with brute force when they are overpowered with surprisingly common uber items.

The first BG tried to emulate a typical D&D campaign, where the DM's story usually doesn't survive the players' actions, except in a most general sense.

I think that when you are praising BG2 combat system what you are actually praising D&D, or your appreciation for D&D and your fond memories of playing it, or the fact that BG2 is the most popular implementation of D&D in cRPGs.

BG2 has more character.

You mean BG2 has more franchise.

I personally think BG2 is a whole lot better game than PoE as a whole package. Not sure why some of you concentrate in one particular aspect of the game.

Of course, BG2 is better than PoE. So what? My point is that it is a shitty overrated game and one of its many flaws is the awful writing. Then some fans tried to defend the writing and comparisons with PoE NPCs started to pop up.

 

[Mrowak]

Lurker King
Can you be less of a self-righteous arsehole, pretty please? You shtick was entertaining but it outstays its welcome. Get on with your life, play whatever :monocle: game you want, or better, don't play any go find yourself a hot chick and make her a baby or something.

Because you can spit your 'epiphanies' all day long, as though they were any news to any of us it won't change the sad truth that for all the "intellectual" approach here, what you are doing here is seeking self-validation - that someone somewhere in the denizens of the 'Dex agrees with your outlook on this or that. And maybe you could get it here that, but what for? You are really wasting your breath. Seriously, enjoy yourself with what you like, let us have fun with what we enjoy.

You should really learn to recognize and accept things for what they are instead of condemning them for what they could be and they are not. :/

 

[Zeriel]

Thing is, plenty of people on the Codex agree with the notion that BG and BG2 were not god's gift to man, it's just that we had that discussion over 12 years ago, and there's nothing left to be said.

 

[Lurker King]

Thing is, plenty of people on the Codex agree with the notion that BG and BG2 were not god's gift to man, it's just that we had that discussion over 12 years ago, and there's nothing left to be said.

 

[Zeriel]

Thing is, plenty of people on the Codex agree with the notion that BG and BG2 were not god's gift to man, it's just that we had that discussion over 12 years ago, and there's nothing left to be said.

Spoiler

You will be pleased to know that VD definitely agrees with you. I was never so sold on BG and BG 2 being outright bad games, but they certainly aren't the best exemplar of roleplaying games in particular.