Review RPG Codex Review: Dungeon Rats

[Goral]

I... really have a hard time understanding how you can compare DR to Desperados / Commandos

Well, I'm a fan of these games (especially Desperados) and DR so that's why I said it, figured there would be more people like me. As for the resemblance, you're right, there isn't that much but... In Desperados you were also in charge of a team with different skills, you had the alchemy (sleeping gas and dynamite plus a mushroom concotion that made people mad), different types of weapons and opponents and most of all tactical combat only it wasn't turn based but real time. Although you could have used quick action and plan your actions beforehand and execute them at the right moment. That's not all but it's all rather weak. That's the vibe I'm getting though.

 

[Infinitron]

While checking for some more Dungeon Rats news I stumbled upon RPG Watch thread. I advise you to avoid it, these retards can't even read and think that Infinitron wrote the review... :facepalm:

I like the guy who randomly posted a paragraph of text about the joy of opening containers in D:OS (?!)

 

[Darth Roxor]

I would like to point all Commandos/Desperados enthusiasts to Shadow Tactics.

/shill

 

[zool]

I... really have a hard time understanding how you can compare DR to Desperados / Commandos

Well, I'm a fan of these games (especially Desperados) and DR so that's why I said it, figured there would be more people like me. As for the resemblance, you're right, there isn't that much but... In Desperados you were also in charge of a team with different skills, you had the alchemy (sleeping gas and dynamite plus a mushroom concotion that made people mad), different types of weapons and opponents and most of all tactical combat only it wasn't turn based but real time. Although you could have used quick action and plan your actions beforehand and execute them at the right moment. That's not all but it's all rather weak. That's the vibe I'm getting though.

Listen to what Roxor said in his above-post. I'm currently playing the demo of Shadow Tactics and it is promising indeed, you will like it if you're a fan of Desperados and Commandos (I know I am).

 

[zool]

don't forget about grouping weapon types in the crafting screen :D

Already done. A sneak peek on the changelog:

- You can select characters on the placement phase via clicking on the combat queue.
- Crafting screen now separates schematics in weapon type, and armor material, plus they are ordered alphabetically.
- You can see the THC, CS and ADC on area of effect attacks.
- You can now select your character facing during combat for 1 AP.

- Base block is 25 (from 15).
- Increased chance to fully block attacks.
- Increased regular shields hardness.
- Increased crude shields vsRanged.
- Shields vsRanged no longer added when dodging (it's taken into account if block + vsRanged is higher than dodge).
- Increased base critical rating to 15 per CS point.
- Tweaked berserk potion progression (Max is 40/10 from 50/5).
- Doubled antidote effect.
- Made acid vial stronger and available earlier. Now all of them do HP damage. Reduced throwing range. Increased AP.
- Splash Acid adds AoE similar to bombs.

So I guess future patches will focus on bugfixing and tweaking game balance / UI, right? Is there any chance we will get at some point a light content patch that would add much-needed flavor dialogues for party member?

 

[Grunker]

I completed the game a number of times and still found it's system lacking in a number of ways.

This guy should be a codexer

 

[pakoito]

So it's like low budget Blackguards 1?

Since I'm finishing my 2nd playtrough of Blackguards and I finished DR like 4 times or so, I think I'm in a good position to answer that. If by "low budget" you mean "muh production values", then sure. BG is fully voiced, has pretty graphix etc. But when simply comparing both "combat games", I would say DR is superior in some ways, inferior in others. For example, the character development in BG seems to be deeper, but...not really. BG is plagued by a plethora of trap choices and the actually viable skills/spells/weapons are actually not that many. OTOH, I can't really think of a "trap" choice of weapon is DR. Every weapon has something going on for it and some players will swear that X weapon is better than Y, while others will say "LOLOLOL, Y IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER U SCRUB!". On top of that, weapons in DR actually play out differently from each other, whereas BG weapons are mostly same-ish. Swords are bad axes/maces, two handed swords and two handed bashing are p. much the same, spears are different (but subpar because no Hammer Blow) and xbows are simply bad bows. And as someone already said, and Roxor hinted on his review, archer-mage is pretty much the "optimal" MC. Anything different is subpar and god help you if you decide you want to be a mage. So from a metagame perspective, I would say DR did a better job in giving the player more freedom to play his MC however he wishes. DR/AoD are a great lesson in how the whole "asymmetrical balance" thing should be done.

What BG does better is its encounter design that keeps providing new and interesting challenges that prevent the player from going "auto pilot" on fights. In terms of encounter variety and how interesting these encounters are, I would say BG wins easily. Sometimes it's a straight up fight, others you have to avoid traps and some times you can use the enviroment to your advantage. This is not without flaw, ofc, as I'm pretty sure some fights in BG were not balanced around Hard difficulty (since Hard seems to be simple damage bloat, XP nerf and HP bloat). I'll elaborate on that in the BG thread. I would also say that BG wins on the "story" front, for what is worth. It should also be noted that BG is a much longer game, and it is pretty long without resorting to filler (well, except at the very end. Fuck the Eternal Valley caves with filler fights against spiders).

All in all, I think both games draw their strengths from their way-above-average encounter designs, with BG being a more "great things mixed with shitty things" type of game while DR feels more "pretty good all around".

what's the replayability factor? Is it good the 2nd and 3rd time you play it?

Although there are 4 endings, 2 of them CHA locked, replayability in DR mostly boils down to "do you want to try a different build?". I find experimenting with different builds and comparing the results to be a lot of fun, so I consider the game to have decent replayability value. OTOH, it does NOT have AoD levels of replayability, simply because there are no real "forks in the road" for you to choose.

Yeah I meant muh prodval. Not that I care much, so I'm glad to hear the game's good on the gamey department.

Already it, will play it one of these years.

 

[Elhoim]

I thought that was a bronze forge. Was that changed at some point?

Always Iron =)

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I completed the game a number of times and still found it's system lacking in a number of ways.

This guy should be a codexer

He probably spent 1337 hours playing AoD.

 

[vivec]

Games are serious guys like totally. Also, JA2 totally not an RPG guys, I swear on me mum.

 

[Elhoim]

So I guess future patches will focus on bugfixing and tweaking game balance / UI, right? Is there any chance we will get at some point a light content patch that would add much-needed flavor dialogues for party member?

Up to VD.

We would probably tweak some of the combat encounters, spice them up.

 

[Don Peste]

solo mode sets your character’s Charisma to 2, as opposed to the default minimum of 4

2 > 4 ????

Anyway, is this ToEE spiritual successor?

 

[Goral]

So I guess future patches will focus on bugfixing and tweaking game balance / UI, right? Is there any chance we will get at some point a light content patch that would add much-needed flavor dialogues for party member?

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7308.msg148042.html#msg148042

IF this game keeps selling we can add mini-modules set outside the mine. Each module is one of your party members' story. For example, Roxana tells you she ended up here because she disregarded an order and killed Gaelius' ally. We can let you play as her and do the assassination (a manor with guards and multiple ways to do it). 9 human party members - 9 mini-modules. Free content, of course, not paid DLC.

Just an idea at this stage, not a promise.

Don Peste
If you go solo your charisma is set to 2 (can't be lower) so you get extra 2 stat points (and for solo you get another 2 stat points to compensate). In a non-solo playthrough you can't go lower than 4.

 

[Stakhanov]

I blame Goral for tempting me to read RPGWatch but holy fuck, never again:

Dungeon Rats = Vacuum free of FUN. Could have guessed: was done by poor idiots who committed Age of Decadence. The devs somehow completely forgot to build into the game FUN.

No magic = no fun = big no no for a fantasy game.
No voiced characters + too much writing = no fun
No death cries, cries of agony and loud expressions of pain when hit = no player satisfaction no fun…

So this game tastes like chewing on grey clay. Maybe half done? But lots of Steam EA games that were designed well are already mountains of FUN.

 

[zool]

So I guess future patches will focus on bugfixing and tweaking game balance / UI, right? Is there any chance we will get at some point a light content patch that would add much-needed flavor dialogues for party member?

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7308.msg148042.html#msg148042

IF this game keeps selling we can add mini-modules set outside the mine. Each module is one of your party members' story. For example, Roxana tells you she ended up here because she disregarded an order and killed Gaelius' ally. We can let you play as her and do the assassination (a manor with guards and multiple ways to do it). 9 human party members - 9 mini-modules. Free content, of course, not paid DLC.

Just an idea at this stage, not a promise.

.

Thanks. Not exactly what I would like but this could be fun, though more time-consuming for VD & co than simply adding some additional dialogue to DR.

 

[agris]

I blame Goral for tempting me to read RPGWatch but holy fuck, never again:

too much writing

shit, this guy has a point. I think there's damn near... what, 1000 words in the game? 2000? I'm supposed to READ that shit? Get the fuck out. 0/10 lighthouses.

I always thought that the Codex's response to the Watch was rivalry for the sake of justifying one's existence. After reading the above, plus the comment that Elhoim's name crossed with Goral's results in antichrist-level heresy... fuck.

Fuck!

 

[MrMarbles]

what's the replayability factor? Is it good the 2nd and 3rd time you play it?

It could definitely be if you're into it. A dedicated fan could push it to 4: After the first playthrough a psycho/solo run, high charisma run for new companions, ironman run and a different weapon setup or alchemy build is enough for 3 more. For example, throwing weapons are going to make for a different experience from both bow/crossbow or melee.

 

[Lurker King]

Tactical Rats would be a pretty weird title though. :\

But Dungeon Tactics would have been a better title.

Prison Rats.

 

[Lurker King]

For fuck's sake, Roxor. Congrats, you found two instances where they used the term dungeon crawler. It's pure semantics, as well as still being wrong because even if you still somehow thought this was going to be UU or some shit, there is plenty of information available about the games' features. Those misleading fuckers not giving us any more information about the gaem!!

It’s a mix of wishful thinking on Roxor’s part and Vault Dweller’s choice of tittle and comments. When he saw the tittle he thought “Finally, I’m going to play a new dungeon crawler!”. VD also talked a lot about the “dungeon crawler this”, “dungeon crawler that” in the Codex in the past months. Then reality hits and butthurt ensues.

 

[oneself]

what's the replayability factor? Is it good the 2nd and 3rd time you play it?

Good for two playthroughs. Solo and team. Maybe small team and a big team. Weapon differences comes down to ranged and melee; better weapons and worse weapons.

 

[Darth Roxor]

wishful thinking on Roxor’s part

not really

 

[FUDU]

I blame Goral for tempting me to read RPGWatch but holy fuck, never again:

Dungeon Rats = Vacuum free of FUN. Could have guessed: was done by poor idiots who committed Age of Decadence. The devs somehow completely forgot to build into the game FUN.

No magic = no fun = big no no for a fantasy game.
No voiced characters + too much writing = no fun
No death cries, cries of agony and loud expressions of pain when hit = no player satisfaction no fun…

So this game tastes like chewing on grey clay. Maybe half done? But lots of Steam EA games that were designed well are already mountains of FUN.

Ya, because the Codex is a paragon of smart and reasonable people, that always have the exactly perfect amount of expectations.

 

[Lurker King]

On a fundamental level, the scorpions, the elder scorpions, the scolopendras and the black scolopendras (and to a degree also the ants) are nearly identical. "I'm a monster that hits you with one attack that also poisons you while being immune to poison myself", they only differ in some numbers. You could just as well replace them all with a monster called "bug" and have it progress along a track of: Bug, Elder Bug, Battle Bug, Black Bug. You fight those for much more than just "2 or 3 times", it's just the skin that changes to fool you.

All true. Having different types of creatures is refreshing, but they all can be divided among two groups that are human-like:

(1) one dude who does power attack, with poision or not, using heavy armor [worms, scorpions, scolopendras]

(2) one dude who does power or fast attack with poison [ants and plants]

It is unimaginative.

Let's be clear about what I'm attacking, the claim that this game was falsely advertised.

Yeah, that was too much. Just because he assumes a different concept of dungeon crawler, doesn't follow that he was trying to fool people into buying his game. VD is always up front about everything.

Does it matter whether the game was falsely advertised or not?

It matters a lot because you are accusing developers of being dishonest and tarnishing their reputation.

Grunker

The majority of the fights are against humans, and there's some really good encounters in that majority. Like Roxor mentioned in his review, the humans are the best oppononents because of how they can be kitted out (gear and ability wise). If you went into the game expecting "$9 of good encounters", your expectations would be highly exceeded.

Unless you live in a country where $9 isn't the cost of lunch next to your work.

The review make it sound like the combat in DR is like AoD with minor changes. It is not, it is much better.

 

[Goral]

It is unimaginative.

It may be so but humans are highest in the food chain for a reason, animals are supposed to be primitive and easy for humans to counteract. What else could these creatures be doing to make the fights more interesting without making them silly? Tweaking the numbers and giving them a different skin is still better than suddenly allowing them to spew acid or a web (unless there would be giant spiders but these are rather common in RPGs) or breathing fire. I guess some of them could have a shorter range because all of them IIRC could attack diagonally (or from a larger distance).

 

[34scell]

Something I find is true in AoD as well; the large maps for walking around add little to gameplay and pure text adventure between combat would be a better use of resources, if not some other system.