Review RPG Codex Review: Dungeon Rats

[Vault Dweller]

It is unimaginative.

It may be so but humans are highest in the food chain for a reason, animals are supposed to be primitive and easy for humans to counteract. What else could these creatures be doing to make the fights more interesting without making them silly? Tweaking the numbers and giving them a different skin is still better than suddenly allowing them to spew acid or a web (unless there would be giant spiders but these are rather common in RPGs) or breathing fire. I guess some of them could have a shorter range because all of them IIRC could attack diagonally (or from a larger distance).

First, I completely agree with the critique. The problem is two-fold:

- the monsters have a limited attack repertoire (for the record, that's the case in 99% of RPGs)
- they lack the weaknesses of the human enemies, which is logical (you can't knock down a crawler) but not very interesting. We should have introduced new weaknesses.

The main reason for that is not the lack of imagination but the lack of time as these changes aren't easy to implement and more interesting attacks would require unique animations we definitely didn't have time for. We'll try to do what we can now and we'll definitely do it right in the CSG.

 

[Goral]

The main reason for that is not the lack of imagination but the lack of time as these changes aren't easy to implement and more interesting attacks would require unique animations we definitely didn't have time for.

So if you had unlimited funds and time what would you add/change to make them more interesting and unique?

 

[vivec]

Make AoD 2 Duh.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The main reason for that is not the lack of imagination but the lack of time as these changes aren't easy to implement and more interesting attacks would require unique animations we definitely didn't have time for.

So if you had unlimited funds and time what would you add/change to make them more interesting and unique?

Make AoD 2 Duh.

Anyway, let's explore some options, starting with the scorpions. We have two types: younger and older. In the game the older scorpions have more armor and hit harder, but have the same attacks with different modifiers. We can make the younger scorpions favoring fast attacks and aimed: legs attacks with a higher THC bonus because the legs are right there in front of them. The older scorpions are bigger and should favor power attacks, charge to knock your ass down, and maybe a special grabbing attack that would make it easy for other scorpions to strike you. They'd still have access to all the other attacks and use them accordingly (same way the humans do). They should be immune to knockdowns and poison, but be more vulnerable to aimed: head attacks (easier to hit, higher critical chance).

Thoughts? Suggestions for other critters?

 

[Goral]

Thoughts? Suggestions for other critters?

I summon Darth Roxor , it's his complaint.

 

[ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈ]

Make them spray you with some AOE shit. Remove some encounters from ant and scorp land.

 

[Lurker King]

Thoughts? Suggestions for other critters?

Some possibilities:

• Puking acid, thus damaging player’s armor.

• Ants should be able to climb walls, thus avoiding bottlenecks completely.

• Vomiting some kind of stick glue on the ground, thus trapping the player on the spot.

• Vomiting some kind of grease on the ground, thus making the player fall on the spot.

• Allowing scolopendras to wrap around the player if they remain close enough for more than two turns.

• Allowing scolopendras to wrap around plants when they are closed to death because plants are deadly if you remain close.

 

[Lurker King]

The constructs are the very embodiment of bad design in Dungeon Rats, although they’ve also been featured in AoD, but there they were not as prominent. You can’t knock them down, you can’t poison them, you can’t cripple their arms or legs, you can’t move them in any way, and you can’t manoeuvre around them, because they have AP up the ass, and all the combat areas including them are completely open.

Two words: critical strike. Besides, constructs are more vulnerable to some weapons than others.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

It's like Dwarf Run but without the humor and less interesting environments (try Dwarf Run).

I'm pretty sure Dungeon Rats is as it was described to be. Party based AoD Combat Romp. I enjoyed it in that respect.

 

[FeelTheRads]

They should be immune to...poison

Based on what?

 

[aweigh]

Darth Roxor

So Vault Dweller actually insists that a game such as this one is a dungeon crawler even though it does not feature actual dungeoneering?

I have not played the game yet and was reading the thread, entertained by the apologists saying that they never fully marketed the game as a "real dungeon crawler"; and then I come upon your statement that in the IT forums VD actually truly believes this game qualifies in the same category as Might and Magic or Wizardry...

(i.e. a dungeon crawler)

I dunno. For whatever reason, probably my high esteem of VD in general, I guess I just plain expected better of him.

EDIT: FWIW there are at least 3 distinct sub-genres of dungeon crawlers, so there is plenty of fabric to thread with this type of discussion. From the review, however, DR does not meet any of the dungeoneering aspects that serve as gameplay systems in any of the 3 'crawler sub-genres.

 

[Cadmus]

Darth Roxor

So Vault Dweller actually insists that a game such as this one is a dungeon crawler even though it does not feature actual dungeoneering?

I have not played the game yet and was reading the thread, entertained by the apologists saying that they never fully marketed the game as a "real dungeon crawler"; and then I come upon your statement that in the IT forums VD actually truly believes this game qualifies in the same category as Might and Magic or Wizardry...

I dunno. For whatever reason, probably my high esteem of VD in general, I guess I just plain expected better of him.

You go through an almost perfectly linear map and kill enemies with your party. You're also in a dungeon. It's more of a tactical game but thanks lord there aren't any fucking puzzles. I don't know what else you want, non-linear big maps maybe? Sure, but the game costs 9 € and VD stated beforehand it's a side project with zero time dedicated to it which is reflected in the pricing.

 

[Jaedar]

The constructs are the very embodiment of bad design in Dungeon Rats, although they’ve also been featured in AoD, but there they were not as prominent. You can’t knock them down, you can’t poison them, you can’t cripple their arms or legs, you can’t move them in any way, and you can’t manoeuvre around them, because they have AP up the ass, and all the combat areas including them are completely open.

Two words: critical strike. Besides, constructs are more vulnerable to some weapons than others.

Do tell. Unless you mean something as banal as "swords are worse than axes because constructs can't bleed".

 

[Vault Dweller]

Darth Roxor

So Vault Dweller actually insists that a game such as this one is a dungeon crawler even though it does not feature actual dungeoneering?

I have not played the game yet and was reading the thread, entertained by the apologists saying that they never fully marketed the game as a "real dungeon crawler"; and then I come upon your statement that in the IT forums VD actually truly believes this game qualifies in the same category as Might and Magic or Wizardry...

(i.e. a dungeon crawler)

I dunno. For whatever reason, probably my high esteem of VD in general, I guess I just plain expected better of him.

EDIT: FWIW there are at least 3 distinct sub-genres of dungeon crawlers, so there is plenty of fabric to thread with this type of discussion. From the review, however, DR does not meet any of the dungeoneering aspects that serve as gameplay systems in any of the 3 'crawler sub-genres.

I don't insist on anything. I explained many times what the game is and isn't (i.e. 50 mostly linear fights and a bit of exploration) and never tried to present the game as anything else.

I define dungeon crawler as a game that takes place mainly in dungeons (as of opposite to games that take place in a pseudo-world which is a very important distinction). Daggerfall had tons of complex dungeons but you wouldn't call it a dungeon crawler because the game offered a lot more than just dungeons. Obviously, DR doesn't compete or come close to the venerable dungeon crawlers you mentioned and it wouldn't even make a top100 list because it's a quick and inexpensive game put together in 10 months, not because we disagree on the definitions.

Obviously, full scale dungeon crawlers with proper development cycles offer much more than 50 linear fights but we're talking about a $9 game here. Even Blackguards which had zero exploration and mostly linear fights was in development for over 2 years and had a $50 pricetag.

 

[aweigh]

Cadmus

My critique is not one regarding the game's quality; it pertains to a game developer's surprising lack of knowledge on a subject. A flaw which is all too human.

As for your assertion (or summation?) that simplistic design equals dungeon crawling... I'll just say I completely disagree. We can argue furiously over this later if you wish, I don't mind, but I don't want to post too much in a DR thread until I actually play the game.

(In This Thread): There are far too many people, most surprisingly of all apparently VD himself included, that think simplistic or to be more generous "stripped down or combat focused" design interpretation for some reason = dungeon crawling. I will never understand this viewpoint.

Hell, combat isn't even a required ingredient for a dungeon crawler. The clue lies in the sub-genre's titling.

And when I play it I will do so knowing, as I have from the beginning, that I am going to be playing an SRPG (or TRPG for bigots who hate japanese RPG nomenclature); and that I have always known this game would not actually be a dungeon crawler.

EDIT: VD, just because a game takes place inside a place doesn't mean it's "(THE PLACE): RPG"... anyway, like i said, i'll refrain from further posting ITT until I actually play DR so I can actually discuss the game instead of simply blathering about inconsequential semantics.

 

[Infinitron]

Blackguards was (and still is) a $40 game fyi

P.S. I also always knew this was going to be a linear combat crawler, although I may have half-expected VD to surprise us with some bonus non-combat stuff.

 

[Goral]

aweigh
I know that Wikipedia is no alpha and omega but clearly many people would include DR in DC genre.

A dungeon crawl is a type of scenario in fantasy role-playing games in which heroes navigate a labyrinthine environment (a "dungeon"), battling various monsters, and looting any treasure they may find. Because of its simplicity, a dungeon crawl can be easier for a gamemaster to run than more complex adventures, and the "hack and slash" style of play is appreciated by players who focus on action and combat. The term can be used in a pejorative sense, since dungeon crawls often lack meaningful plot or logical consistency.

It is a dungeon crawler and no, VD did not send mixed signals. Instead of relying on opinion of others check the forums yourself and play the game yourself.

 

[aweigh]

That entire entry is mostly inaccurate and it is written in a very leading way that does not inform the viewer but instead preaches an agenda.

Hell, JSawer to use another dev example, doesn't even consider Wizardry to be an example of a "true" RPG; a statement which is completely incorrect.

'Crawler genre is a good topic of discussion precisely because it can allow for such malleability and because it is so subjective. What that wiki entry calls simplistic elements can actually be much more complex than branching A/B/C dialog trees, for example.

Etc, etc.

 

[Goral]

No it's not.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are far too many people, most surprisingly of all apparently VD himself included, that think simplistic or to be more generous "stripped down or combat focused" design interpretation for some reason = dungeon crawling. I will never understand this viewpoint.

I don't think that stripped down means dungeon crawling. Dungeon crawlers can be as complex as the development time and budget allow.

 

[Lomer2]

Sorry, am I missing something or now someone is accusing perhaps the most honest guy in the game industry (and one of the most honest businessmen I have ever seen) of misleading us? The definition of a dungeon crawler is something debatable but it is clear that:

• VD believes his game to fall into this definition;
• He very clearly explained all the game features many times in the past and has not promised anything which is not there.

I knew exactly what I was buying and I expect that to be true for any customer taking his time to look at the described game features on Steam or IT website. Here is the info on Steam store:

Starting out as a new prisoner at the bottom of the gangs-ruled prison hierarchy, and of the prison itself, you must fight to survive and develop your combat skills, acquiring better weapons and equipment as you go. Recruit allies to your struggle or carry on as a lone wolf, and kill anyone foolish enough to stand in your way.
Features include:

• Tactical combat system, including standard attacks, aimed attacks targeting specific body parts, and per-weapon special attacks such as Whirlwind and Impale.
• Detailed crafting and alchemy systems: forge your own weapons, brew potions and poisons, experiment with Liquid Fire and Black Powder.
• 8 weapon types: Daggers, Swords, Axes, Hammers, Spears, Bows, Crossbows, and Throwing Weapons, each with its own advantages and disadvantages.
• Fully customizable main character, as well as 10 possible companions, not all of them human (maximum party size is 4).
• 50 challenging fights and 4 different endings

What of the above is not true or in any way misleading? Do you see there promise for solving puzzles, avoiding traps or awakening ancient sleeping monsters?

So, instead of supporting a competently done and very entertaining indie game (which is also cheap as fuck), some are now forcing the developers to defend themselves and fight bad publicity (potentially losing precious few sales in the process). I am genuinely disgusted.

 

[Infinitron]

In no way do I believe that Vault Dweller ever meant to be deceptive and I think this whole argument is overblown, but nevertheless I'm curious - Vault Dweller, is it a coincidence that the term "dungeon crawler" doesn't appear anywhere on the game's Steam page?

 

[Lurker King]

I think this is pure snobbery of some purists here, who are too eager to talk about their egocentric preferences at the expense of ITS reputation or the quality of Dungeon Rats. Darth Roxor, aweigh, not every game in the industry should be tailor made to satisfy your arrogant egos. In fact, most people here don’t give a fuck about your arbitrary preferences and your arrogant attitude will just make people even more dismissive about the the nature of dungeon crawlers. In case you haven't notice, there is not much consensus about anything in cRPGs.

 

[ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈ]

I think this is pure snobbery of some purists here, who are too eager to talk about their egocentric preferences at the expense of ITS reputation or the quality of Dungeon Rats. Darth Roxor, aweigh, not every game in the industry should be tailor made to satisfy your arrogant egos. In fact, most people here don’t give a fuck about your arbitrary preferences and your arrogant attitude will just make people even more dismissive about the the nature of dungeon crawlers. In case you haven't notice, there is not much consensus about anything in cRPGs.

The sound of dick slurping that you and Goral constantly make is disgusting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In no way do I believe that Vault Dweller ever meant to be deceptive and I think this whole argument is overblown, but nevertheless I'm curious - Vault Dweller, is it a coincidence that the term "dungeon crawler" doesn't appear anywhere on the game's Steam page?

When we announced the game, my main concern was to ensure that nobody thinks it's AoD 2 in any shape or form. So I referred to it as a dungeon crawler, which was a better working name than 'combat game' or 'combat rpg'. When I did the store page on Steam I described the game properly - party-based RPG focused on squad level tactical combat. I should have changed the description on our site as well but since we weren't selling the game directly, it was a low priority thing.