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Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
21
Not even the best Obsidian RPG of the past decade - MotB is better, and I'd wager that some people would consider New Vegas better as well, even though I'm not a huge fan of it personally.

Sorry, you are correct, I thought MoTB was older than a decade by now.
New Vegas is not a CRPG, but even if it was, Pillars is better.

Pfff, even Dragon Age: Origins is better than PoE.
PE feels better to play though because of the controls & camera. But DA:O has better content.
Hahahahahaha, no.

Pillars of Eternity is still easily the best CRPG released in the past decade.
Pillars of Eternity is still easily the best CRPG released in the past decade.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Perfectly aware. It doesn't bother me and I don't believe AoD will become an exception (in fact, the opposite is true). Naturally, I'll do what I can to increase the odds of selling enough to stay in business, but we knew from day one that the game won't be a top seller, not even for a day, and will be a commercial failure as far as the industry is concerned. But I do hope that we can survive where Troika couldn't because we're a small studio and we're planning to stay small.

Overall, for an RPG to do well it needs to have some kind of mainstream appeal. No mainstream appeal - it's dead in the water (like any niche game). AoD has no mainstream appeal whatsoever (like Underrail) and isn't a youtube friendly game.

So, like I mentioned above, Torment sold about 400,000 copies. Baldur's Gate sold 2 million copies, the first expansion 600,000 copies. Daggerfall sold poorly and bankrupted Bethesda. ZeniMax bought it and went mainstream, selling millions of copies. Troika wanted to make real RPGs and now it's gone. Obsidian kept playing it safe and they are still around.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Bethestard
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Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
That analysis seems a little rigged. Morrowind has little that appeals to the mainstream. Shitty combat, weird setting, no handholding. It's like Torment for explorationfags. If anything it's a miracle it sold so well. VtM otoh had plenty that would appeal to mainstream. The combat's mediocre but it's easy to pick up, vampires, you won't get lost looking for Caius Cosades, lots of sluts and whores in it, etc. I also doubt Underrail holds no appeal to the typical indie gamer. I mean the guy made enough money to hire more people which is probably better than 95% of indie games do.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Morrowind was a mainstream game through and through. Compared to Daggerfall, it was dumbed down in practically every aspect and the gaming media loved it, ate up the sample quest (Fargoth's Gold), and hyped it to high heaven because the water looked so amazing. Then Bethesda did the same with Oblivion (dumbed down even further to make it even more accessible) and the winning formula was created.

PS:

Daggerfall's main quest:

quest.gif


Morrowind's main quest:

questmap.gif


As for Underrail, you missed my point. Compare Underrail or AoD sales to Banished, for example. Over a million copies sold. Why? Mass appeal through the roof. Neither AoD nor Underrail would ever sell more than 100,000 copies. I doubt AoD can sell even 50,000 copies.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
RtwP worked for the BG series because basically all the physical damage characters were right-click and forget. Yeah, you could do tricks with rangers, paladins, w/e, but face it, the only classes worth controlling in detail were dedicated spellcasters, so that you were basically microing 1-2 characters while the others auto attacked. In fact, it was even easier than that, because the spell limitations in D&D forced you to use spells sparingly, so even though you were microing the spellcasters, at the end of the day all you actually want to do is cast 2-3 spells per character per fight. The actions/minute were low.

I remember the way I played through BG was that I'd pause-buff whatever buffs I need, then I'd send all my guys on a target, then I'd pause the game, click the mage, set up spells I wanted to be cast, then click the cleric, set up the spells I wanted to be cast, and then unpause and watch the fireworks. At times, I didn't even need to pause because I'd cast so few spells after buffing that it isn't even worth it. RtwP worked for BG because of how little you actually needed to do to win fights. Indeed, for power gamers who knew how to build overpowered characters, 80-90% of the game could be completed with 1 fighter dual wielding Cromfaeyr and Flail of Ages with the proper buffs from his caster supports. Indeed, I remember spending a decent chunk of the game just sending in my one fighter guy with boots of speed, -10 ac, and multiple immunities demolishing all in his path.

Coming back to PoE: the issue with PoE is that there are too many abilities for RtwP to work. RtwP was designed for a low actions/minute game, in which you didn't need to do a lot to begin with. PoE, however, loads you with per-combat abilities for every class, such that even though there wasn't a lot of diversity in skills, you still ended up wanting to queue up 3-6 actions every round off the bat. For such a system, you'd rather have TB, because otherwise you'd be pausing every round anyhow, in which case, you're getting the worst of both worlds - no laziness benefit from RtwP, and no combat nuisances from TB.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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Joined
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Messages
37,432
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
VtM otoh had plenty that would appeal to mainstream.

Lacked polish and probably didn't get as good media coverage either.

I am trying to remeber correctly, but I believe Half Life 2 was coming out, and that news pretty much killed all the media coverage for Bloodlines, even though it was the (first?) game to be utilizing the new HL2 engine. Pretty much only the Codex was aware of this game coming out.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Vault Dweller, I don't think it helps your argument to point at a medieval city builder as an example of "mass appeal".
Pfff, even Dragon Age: Origins is better than PoE.
and require tedious micromanagement as well. At least boring fights in PoE are over quickly with minimal input

DAO was actually tailored to be played as a RTWP game, with extensive programmable AI for companions and sensible approach to spells (various combos to offset ostensibly weak spells that seemed shit), unlike PoE, where you have to do 100x micro (and i miss action implicit queue) to play optimally and survive the hard encounters (without pussying out and going to tavern to get more 'planks'). Your party probably had 2x cyphers or something if you felt combat was consistently faceroll. (my party of 2x mages, 2x warriors, durance and Tommy has hard time if spells are exhausted).

Didn't have a Cipher before I found Grieving Mother, and my PC was a melee Rogue. If it wasn't clear from my post, I wasn't talking about "hard encounters" - of which PoE, by my count, has less than 10 - but rather the average trash mob groups. These don't really require any real ability use in PoE, and go by rather quickly, while they'd require much more maintenance in DA:O. The latter would normally be a point in favor of a game, but the encounters were simply way too repetitive as a whole. Repetition grates less if you don't have to do much.

As for the "tailored to be played as RTWP" thing, the combat honestly felt like controlling an entire group in an MMO. Not necessarily a bad thing, and it could've worked very well with better encounter design, but it wasn't some triumph of RTWP system design.

This all comes with the caveat that I've last played DA:O in 2009, so I'm likely not remembering everything as well as I could be.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
VtM otoh had plenty that would appeal to mainstream.

Lacked polish and probably didn't get as good media coverage either.

I am trying to remeber correctly, but I believe Half Life 2 was coming out, and that news pretty much killed all the media coverage for Bloodlines, even though it was the (first?) game to be utilizing the new HL2 engine. Pretty much only the Codex was aware of this game coming out.
Not to mention that both games were released on the same fucking day, courtesy of Activision.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'm pretty sure they couldn't release before HL2 because of the license deal to use source engine. Valve wasn't going to let someone steal their thunder.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Vault Dweller, I don't think it helps your argument to point at a medieval city builder as an example of "mass appeal".
People like building shit, that's the mass appeal factor. That's why there are tons of fairly successful indie games where you build shit, be it survival or SimCity clones. That's why you can play house in Fallout 4 - that alone can boosts its popularity even further and attract people normally not interested in RPGs.

I'm pretty sure they couldn't release before HL2 because of the license deal to use source engine. Valve wasn't going to let someone steal their thunder.
Activision could have waited and released the game a month or two later (on Christmas, for example).
 

Volrath

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,299
Good review, I agree with most of it.

Pillars of Eternity is still easily the best CRPG released in the past decade, though. When you're famished for food, anything above mediocrity will do.

Not even the best Obsidian RPG of the past decade - MotB is better, and I'd wager that some people would consider New Vegas better as well, even though I'm not a huge fan of it personally.
New Vegas is Obsidian's magnum opus. They'll never make anything as good like that again.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Also the coverage it got was negative due to being unfinishable
It really wasn't though. There was a game-breaking bug but it didn't affect everyone, a console command fix was posted immediately, and a patch was released fairly quickly.
 
Unwanted

Irenaeus II

Unwanted
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Jun 9, 2015
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Good review, I agree with most of it.

Pillars of Eternity is still easily the best CRPG released in the past decade, though. When you're famished for food, anything above mediocrity will do.

Not even the best Obsidian RPG of the past decade - MotB is better, and I'd wager that some people would consider New Vegas better as well, even though I'm not a huge fan of it personally.
New Vegas is Obsidian's magnum opus. They'll never make anything as good like that again.

PoE is much better than New Vegas.
 

Eyestabber

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4,733
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
RtwP worked for the BG series because basically all the physical damage characters were right-click and forget. Yeah, you could do tricks with rangers, paladins, w/e, but face it, the only classes worth controlling in detail were dedicated spellcasters, so that you were basically microing 1-2 characters while the others auto attacked. In fact, it was even easier than that, because the spell limitations in D&D forced you to use spells sparingly, so even though you were microing the spellcasters, at the end of the day all you actually want to do is cast 2-3 spells per character per fight. The actions/minute were low.

I remember the way I played through BG was that I'd pause-buff whatever buffs I need, then I'd send all my guys on a target, then I'd pause the game, click the mage, set up spells I wanted to be cast, then click the cleric, set up the spells I wanted to be cast, and then unpause and watch the fireworks. At times, I didn't even need to pause because I'd cast so few spells after buffing that it isn't even worth it. RtwP worked for BG because of how little you actually needed to do to win fights. Indeed, for power gamers who knew how to build overpowered characters, 80-90% of the game could be completed with 1 fighter dual wielding Cromfaeyr and Flail of Ages with the proper buffs from his caster supports. Indeed, I remember spending a decent chunk of the game just sending in my one fighter guy with boots of speed, -10 ac, and multiple immunities demolishing all in his path.

Coming back to PoE: the issue with PoE is that there are too many abilities for RtwP to work. RtwP was designed for a low actions/minute game, in which you didn't need to do a lot to begin with. PoE, however, loads you with per-combat abilities for every class, such that even though there wasn't a lot of diversity in skills, you still ended up wanting to queue up 3-6 actions every round off the bat. For such a system, you'd rather have TB, because otherwise you'd be pausing every round anyhow, in which case, you're getting the worst of both worlds - no laziness benefit from RtwP, and no combat nuisances from TB.

And the fact that BG chances-to-hit are pretty low, especially early in the game. So speeding up the missfest was a good thing. They even made a joke about it, with the two assassins from BG1 fighting for the love of some random chick on the streets of Ankthala in BG2.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Also the coverage it got was negative due to being unfinishable
It really wasn't though. There was a game-breaking bug but it didn't affect everyone, a console command fix was posted immediately, and a patch was released fairly quickly.

Good to know. Wasn't exactly especially looking towards the game back then. It's still the thing I heard most about regarding bloodlines launch.
 

Jaedar

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Messages
10,143
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Also the coverage it got was negative due to being unfinishable
It really wasn't though. There was a game-breaking bug but it didn't affect everyone, a console command fix was posted immediately, and a patch was released fairly quickly.

Good to know. Wasn't exactly especially looking towards the game back then. It's still the thing I heard most about regarding bloodlines launch.
Let us remember that day0 patches were not a thing back then, and the apparent need for one would have been seen as a large minus.
 

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