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Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

Lhynn

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This thread is about to go places.
derail to places you mean. Thread ran its course.

I request a "Shill" tag for infinitron and PJ. Just so that people know what to expect when interacting with them in the future, that is, after all, the real purpose of tags.

DarkUnderlord

And i request the help of our creative team

Phantasmal Stainless Veteran and any other cuck with the skills required.
 

Lhynn

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Nonsense, as long as they are a source of butthurt they will stay relevant.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
sigh

A game will never do well without mass appeal, but mass appeal alone doesn't guarantee success, especially if it's competing with a similar game with much higher mass appeal. Does it really need to be explained?

The claim that a vampire RPG is in direct competition with a FPS is pretty questionable to begin with. As is the belief that people only have to buy one game.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
sigh

A game will never do well without mass appeal, but mass appeal alone doesn't guarantee success, especially if it's competing with a similar game with much higher mass appeal. Does it really need to be explained?

The claim that a vampire RPG is in direct competition with a FPS is pretty questionable to begin with. As is the belief that people only have to buy one game.
They are both FPS's.:retarded:

Time and money are limiting factors for purchasing games. Attention span too. The first game to sell someone will be the first game to distract them. Most people buy a game and then immediately want to play it. They don't hang around and shop for other games when they could be playing the game they just bought.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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The claim that a vampire RPG is in direct competition with a FPS is pretty questionable to begin with.
It is when you put it like that, isn't it? Less so when you consider that the vampire RPG was first-person, built on that FPS engine, and had plenty of shoot 'em gameplay.

As is the belief that people only have to buy one game.
On release? Yes. And that's what counts, ESPECIALLY in those good old days when games needed shelf space and if they didn't sell, they'd lose it quickly and go to the bottom or the bargain bin. Remember Wiz 8? It sold fuck all because no publisher would touch it and the game was given only 30 days of shelf space.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Troika would have done better if Tim Cain and co had stayed at Interplay for a couple more years to finish Fallout 2 and other stuff before departing to found Troika during the Herve years. That way, by the time Vampire was ready, digital distribution could have carried it, not to mention a more mature Source engine. Maybe they could have even picked up on the the Twilight craze.
 

Ninjerk

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Seems like people have forgotten what it was like not to have dozens of games at their disposal for 5 dollars apiece.
 

DeepOcean

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Perfectly aware. It doesn't bother me and I don't believe AoD will become an exception (in fact, the opposite is true). Naturally, I'll do what I can to increase the odds of selling enough to stay in business, but we knew from day one that the game won't be a top seller, not even for a day, and will be a commercial failure as far as the industry is concerned. But I do hope that we can survive where Troika couldn't because we're a small studio and we're planning to stay small.

Overall, for an RPG to do well it needs to have some kind of mainstream appeal. No mainstream appeal - it's dead in the water (like any niche game). AoD has no mainstream appeal whatsoever (like Underrail) and isn't a youtube friendly game.

So, like I mentioned above, Torment sold about 400,000 copies. Baldur's Gate sold 2 million copies, the first expansion 600,000 copies. Daggerfall sold poorly and bankrupted Bethesda. ZeniMax bought it and went mainstream, selling millions of copies. Troika wanted to make real RPGs and now it's gone. Obsidian kept playing it safe and they are still around.
VD, you know about your game sales more than me but as far as the bullshit opinions of random internet dudes go... depends of what you mean by mainstream. There is the general mainstream, to those, show a character creation screen and you lost them, they don't care about number crunching on any way, shape or form. They only care about bling or multiplayer, they like games as people that only read Harry Potter books like reading, they aren't in to enjoy the mechanics, world building or story, they are in to be awed by the bling or have fun with other people and the game is only the medium for that. Obsidian has no chance in hell to appeal to those dudes, unless surfing on the wave made by Bethesda like they did with New Vegas and many Bethesdards complained that Obsidian tried placing even the bare minimum of RPG to the progression system on Fallout 3.

There is the RPG mainstream, you just need to go to RPGWatch and see it on it's full glory, by RPG mainstream I mean alot of storyfags, some are more demanding storyfags (Most of the codex for example) and others are shameless storyfags (most of the RPGWatch) but most are storyfags all the same. They like stories and mechanics are there as a means to an end, they could care less about C&C, tactical combat, character systems and all that stuff if the game is not entertaining story wise or in terms of world building, they aren't as repulsed by gamming mechanics as dudebros and enjoy them somewhat but they need to see a pay off on story for their sacrifice quick (You just need to see the general complaining about act 1 of PoE, probably they complained alot about act 1 because many didn't even played past that) .

The RPG mainstream and all its storyfags is a smaller market, BG 2 WAS part of the RPG mainstream, it was top notch graphix at the time with romances when DnD was way more relevant than it is today. Can you guess why Bioware gone 3d, multiplayer pretty quick instead of doing BG 3? 3d came and all of sudden 2d graphix were the past. A 2d BG clone nowdays is far from something appealing to the RPG mainstream nowdays, BG style games are the past, dead and buried for most storyfags. To make things worse for Obsidian, see the Witchers threads and people discussing the waifus in there, between melodrama and the dry, bland, exposition style of Obsidian that Sawyer likes so much, most storyfags will pick melodrama any day of the week, doesn't matter how stupid it is, there is a reason when people talk about Obsidian they actually talk of flamboyant Avellone characters that escape the dry exposition hell, just look to NWN 2 OC characters and most PoE characters and you will see what I'm talking about.

As a sub set of RPG fans, there are the systemfags, those are the Mujaheedin, the Taliban cutting heads of those silly storyfags, they shrine tactical combat, deep character creation systems, C&C, replayability and all that stuff and they could care less about emotional engaging. Styg, you and the Whalenought guys are of this rare endangered species, fighting on the desert mountains of the codex against the infidels and I love it because I'm mostly a systemfag too. The problem is that as Taleban warriors we will remain a bunch of losers dying to storyfag bombs on the desert forever.

So... what mainstream market Obsidian is appealing to? I don't think even they know. Sawyer market research is glorious "I saw a bunch of people playing and I think I know what they want.". Obsidian can't ride on DnD, the mainstream appealing 2d graphix isometric RPG days are over, many storyfags love lip synching, facial animation and voice acting for their melodrama way too much to give that away for isometric crap, Obsidian doesn't want waifus, the writers still at Obsidian have this idea that subdued characters are better than too flamboyant what won't make most storyfags happy . The real RPG mainstream market is lost to Obsidian unless they find a publisher.

I think Obsidian fucked up because if you even had the slightest interest on PoE, discounting the retards moved by hype and nostalgia (that Obsidian will lose anyway when the nostalgia fades and they discover they don't like isometric crap), to give money to a game that might become smoke years on advance, it means you think there is something wrong with modern RPGs, it means you are willing to make sacrifices of voice acting, lip synch and graphix bling, those a big sacrifices.

Those kind of people aren't the RPG mainstream audience. You aren't a total happy shameless storyfag shitslurping Dragon Age Inquisiton idiot if you get your money and burn on kickstarter for a game you have no idea how it will end but Obsidian treated most of their backers as if they were on a very condescending fashion. From the standard fantasy quests afraid of causing confusion, to the heavy exposition (again afraid of causing confusion), the combat (again afraid of causing confusion), Obsidian treated PoE's backers as if they were mainstream RPG fans when that isn't entirely accurate and Obsidian's method of not taking risks (AKA not confusing and frustrating the players at all costs) will hardly warm heart of the mainstream RPG gamer because Obsidian can't/don't want to deliver what they want anyway. They could had been alot bolder with PoE and they could have have sold pretty much the same amount of copies they are selling now but with a much better game.

The mainstream RPG market isn't about BGs, Planescapes or Fallouts 1 and 2 anymore, is a case of waifus + bling my friend, just look the 4 million copies of Witcher 3 sold. Do you think most people that only care about the story with some progression mechanic will turn back to crappy looking isometric games? I can bet with you right now that Bioware is thinking how to make better waifus to get those 4 million units sold on two weeks that they ever managed to.
 

ZagorTeNej

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First, it wasn't a "bugged piece of shit". It sold poorly because it was released on the same day as a highly anticipated shooter using the same engine. Since Bloodlines is an RPG/shooter, it couldn't compete with HL2 as most people who wanted action bought HL2 first.

Second, unlike, say, Arcanum, it had mass appeal and was way too actiony. Its saving grace was the atmosphere, not combat or even role-playing. Had Activision not fucked them, it could have done well.

Bloodlines had decent roleplaying and skill usage (they give different options to solve some quests, open up some additional content etc. of course some of the skills were useless despite having great potential like seduction for example) up until the last third of the game or so. It also offered varied gameplay depending on which clan you took, in that regard clans served well as a sort of replacement for classes (though they were more like templates I guess), playing Malkavian is one of those experiences that stay with you as a gamer. It was still very much a RPG just a FPS hybrid one.

In today's state with all its bugs squashed by unofficial patches/mods the game is a real joy to play, a masterpiece. Troika people were artists that should have been given more time to grow and reach their full potential (all three of their games were flawed but incredibly strong in different areas, they could have eventually made the "perfect" RPG or as close to it as possible), gaming industry sucks and life is shit.
 
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AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Obsidian treated PoE's backers as if they were mainstream RPG fans

"Treated"? You mean "tricked"? :lol:

Sir, do you have a minute to talk about how PoE was backed by grognards and then ruthlessly designed towards an audience that wants the exact opposite of what the grognards expected from an IE games' style game? Casuals and journos...
 

Eyestabber

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All grognards got was some bullshit lip service. "You must gather your party before venturing forth". The game's mechanics are as casual and modern as it gets.
 

DeepOcean

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Messages
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Obsidian treated PoE's backers as if they were mainstream RPG fans

"Treated"? You mean "tricked"? :lol:

Sir, do you have a minute to talk about how PoE was backed by grognards and then ruthlessly designed towards an audience that wants the exact opposite of what the grognards expected from an IE games' style game? Casuals and journos...
I think the lesson here is that kickstarter isn't charity and isn't hobby patronage just a different way to do preordering and as on AAA preordering you can be fucked pretty hard. Once the money is on the hands of the developers they have a freedom that they can misuse and the temptation to misuse can be big, especially on the case of Obsidian that cleary had and still has difficulty changing the AAA identity to a new indie identity that they are scared as shit to assume. PoE's kickstarter isn't the only one that played dirty, shadowrun axed stealth that was a stretch goal and had a pretty shady deal with Microsoft, D:OS cut the day and night cycle thing that was a pretty important stretch goal and frontloaded a ton of content while the rest of the map was nowhere as good as the start, Fargo made Wasteland 2 look like the most reactive RPG in the world...

The only ones that didn't disappoint me on some form so far, what was a surprise, were from the indie guys like Infamous Quests and the Whalenaught duo. I hope that now that the lesson was learned and reality isn't as simple as publishers being capitalist pigs and that developers will always protect their butts first as most people do, people are more careful with kicstarter but don't ragequit the thing and we end having to only play Gaider's Cuthulu children RPGs or Potato Cutscene on Potatoland 3 again.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The claim that a vampire RPG is in direct competition with a FPS is pretty questionable to begin with.
It is when you put it like that, isn't it? Less so when you consider that the vampire RPG was first-person, built on that FPS engine, and had plenty of shoot 'em gameplay.

Wizardry was also first person and while not built on a "fps engine" it was built on a 3d engine that could easily handle a FPS. No shoot 'em gameplay, but then again shooting was just a small part of bloodlines if you built your vampire that way. So yeah, I'm gonna stick to "questionable".
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
sigh

A game will never do well without mass appeal, but mass appeal alone doesn't guarantee success, especially if it's competing with a similar game with much higher mass appeal. Does it really need to be explained?

The claim that a vampire RPG is in direct competition with a FPS is pretty questionable to begin with. As is the belief that people only have to buy one game.
They are both FPS's.:retarded:

Yeah a game you can go through from start to finish without firing a single bullet is a "FPS".

I'm genuinely angry that I wasted five seconds responding to this stupid shit. Eat dick.
 

Latro

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neogaf commentary on this review is pretty good

"I think if poe was created in like 2003 by troika or something codex folks would be all over it."
"Reviewers often suck, I only trust Total Biscuit and Jim Sterling nowadays"
"I think the new Torment may actually suffer for being TB."
"if these people are the definition of RPG fans then I'm not sure I want to count myself as one."
"In a world where things like GamerGate happen and actually get attention I can't get too angry over this stuff"
 

AwesomeButton

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
I think the lesson here is that kickstarter isn't charity and isn't hobby patronage just a different way to do preordering and as on AAA preordering you can be fucked pretty hard. Once the money is on the hands of the developers they have a freedom that they can misuse and the temptation to misuse can be big, especially on the case of Obsidian that cleary had and still has difficulty changing the AAA identity to a new indie identity that they are scared as shit to assume.

Yeah, thanks for saying that. I'm too lazy to dig up a quote where I explain the same thing somewhere. Once they have your money, they have even more freedom about what game they will make than they would have had if they weren't dealing with a backer but with a publisher. Especially if they have an opinionated self-righteous prick for creative lead. One backer fucked over will be replaced by 10 popamolers praising the game through all information channels, so your reputation as a developer won't suffer, as long as you please the casuals and journos. And the beautiful side is - they already have the backer's money, from the moment when the KS countdown reaches 00:00. :)

My story last year was - I bought Bioware's campaign that DAI would have stuff that will make it enjoyable for me. I preordered and was conned. Next was PoE - I thought if I'm playing the beta they can't trick me, and I knew they would release a half-baked game, but when I played the half-baked game with dumbed down systems to boot, I still felt conned. Its resemblance of the IE games is only superficial, to the point where I would suggest not to play PoE if you've played the IE games, but the opposite - if you've tried PoE you may enjoy the IE games more. A friend of mine who was in this situation followed the latter advice, and surprisingly enough - reported that the IE games are more fun than PoE.

On the bright side - I pirated W3 expecting it to be shit and just to try it out for its graphics and I ended up buying it because I thought it's worth it after having played for 20-30 hours. I still wouldn't count it as an RPG though. I bought Underrail's alpha 13 after I learned about Underrail from this forum and I've been very happy I did that. I bought SitS and haven't played much yet, still waiting for more patches, but the game is very solid. I also played the AoD demo and my impressions are so good that I've bought the game but won't touch it at least until its final release.

So, my conclusion - don't buy anything non-indie unless you've played 10+ hours of a pirated version to get a good feeling of the game. Don't preorder products worth more than $20.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
Once they have your money, they have even more freedom about what game they will make than they would have had if they weren't dealing with a backer but with a publisher.

Funny, from where I'm at it looks more like the exact opposite. Pillars would've been a better game had they not had to go in so many directions at once, trying to honor the stretch goal and backer reward promises they made in the KS. Drop Caed Nua and Od Nua, lose the dumbass backer NPC's and their hundreds of interchangeable "unique" items, drop two or three classes, and they could've used the resources they wasted on that getting stealth and crafting right, and getting the numbers working without having to nerf the fuck out of everything. With a publisher, they could easily have cut them as soon as they realized they were overstretched. With the Kickstarter, they were fucked from the start.
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
It's a lie. There's no soul or spirit in PoE. No love, no life. Arcanum is full of neat little things; of great quests here and there, swell music, a strangely, melancholy mood, this lovely pre-Industrial feeling. Things in its setting are integral, not afterthoughts. It has a great plot. In different ways, this can be said for Bloodlines, too. And no matter how drab and lifeless ToEE might have been, it boasted a wonderful combat system. Go fuck yourself.


PoE has a terrible combat system. Even BG 2 had better combat, which is perverse if you think about it. It stuck to rules we're all familiar with - horribly mangled, but tried and true. It augmented its simple mechanics with a massive amount of spells, classes and options, all which made playing various classes very different. Various parties had vastly different strategies and the encounters made thinking about what how to adapt to any given scenario a must.

PoE has not a glimmer of spirit in overwrought, endless purple prose. It's a game that was written by people that can, on paper, write, but had no unifying grand idea to follow. This game needed a director. It needed someone who can breathe life into its dead and meaningless world. PoE needed Avellone.
 
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If there's anything Pillars has, it's soul, both figuratively and literally :)
Pillars has good quests, good music, good atmosphere and good combat. I can see the complains that the setting is a bit too generic, but it executes well on what it's going for. If it was released in 2003 by Troika everyone would be ignoring its flaws and looking fondly on its strengths, just like you do to the Troika games already.
Stay mad :kfc:
 

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