Review RPG Codex Review: Pillars of Eternity - By Vault Dweller and the Spirit of Grunker

[tuluse]

My apologies, I am an idiot who cannot into reading comprehension.

To my defense, I think I simply failed to accept the idea of rewarding players for dying, and assumed it was a different way of saying "kill streak".

For the record, everything I've said about rewarding the player for good performance by making the game easier for them only applies to action games. It's an opinion I've come to after mostly playing bullet hell shmups for the past half a year, as well, so it's likely not true for RPGs or competitive multiplayer FPS, or what have you.

I think you're right actually. I find it strange how RPGs and their players like the reverse power curve (basically every RPG ever made is hardest at the beginning and get easier).

I think the "reward" for skilled play in an RPG should be progressing to harder and more rewarding challenges sooner, while the punishment for poor play should be something like an enforced grind to get your characters stronger to overcome the challenges in front of you.

Not an rpg, but Uplink does this. Beating missions gives you reputation which allows you to take on higher paying, but more difficult jobs. If you are struggling to complete jobs, then you are basically forced to stay at the current level while you figure it out and you will probably earn more money to buy more gear to make jobs easier as well.

 

[Prime Junta]

I wonder if RPG's could take a page out of the strategy game playbook? There it's quite common that if you play well, the (AI) enemy will ally against you and make your life a good deal more interesting.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I agree. Men-pwgra and fampyrs should gather and ambush the player in an unholy alliance against the player if they perceive him as a huge threat to their societies. Also, Thaos should more be aware of your successes and hire better assassins to kill you. Or maybe, that shit he got was all that he could afford. Looking back, I'm now thinking that running that suicidal soul-syphoning cult business sounds expensive as fuck. He was spreading himself too thin, he needed more support and allies. No wonder that he fails to succeed in the end. He grew too paranoid in time with all the betraying over the millenia. Reflecting now, it was inevitable. Let that be a lesson of humility for The Burned Queen.

 

[LeStryfe79]

It's fun to show up and brofist people sometimes. I would put Shovel Knight ahead of FTL, but just barely.

 

[Sceptic]

In general though, I don't think that D:OS is the best Kickstarted game because it wasn't Kick*started*. It was mostly done when they went on KS to get extra funds for polish and such. Unlike Pillars and Shadowrun, D:OS would have developed with or without KS.

I still don't agree with Grunker's conclusion that it's the best game. Best CRPG, maybe, considering Shadowrun OC's reception (you might argue Dragonfall doesn't qualify for the same reason as DOS). As far as all game genres go, Tesla Effect did a much better job delivering on its promises and being a spiritual successor (well, in that case, more like "more of the same with some modern bells and whistles", but then this is what the fans who funded it wanted) than POE.

Also, I find this line, about POE being the best KS game, to be very damning of the entire system. Look at Grunker's conclusion; it basically boils down to the best KS game being merely good, banging its head against a wall that it cannot surpass to become great. Wasn't the whole point of KS transcending the greatness of the great AAA games to achieve Total Supremacy? And "merely good" is the best we can do? Prime Junta's review is equally damning in a way, though I don't think he meant it this way: it's the best KS game, it's one he actually thinks is remarkable (unlike Grunker and yourself), yet he spends a lot of the review detailing some major flaws. Ones that we tend to forgive in the publisher model and brush aside as being publisher interference and whatnot; but, as both your review and Roxor's has pointed out, what's the excuse for this kind of playing it safe in a KS game?

In fact I find it interesting that Grunker, Roxor, PJ and yourself have very different opinions on the game, very different opinions on whether some things work or not (and of course radically differing views on whether the elements that POE copies or changes from IE make it better or worse), yet your reviews all point out the same major flaws. The only real difference is in how much these flaws affected your individual enjoyment of the game.

I was rereading Roxor's review and was actually surprised that it's a lot less vitriolic than the comments and reactions had made me remember. He goes out of his way to point out the parts that do work, and he backs every criticism with a detailed analysis and at least one example. In fact I think yours is in parts much more scathing, even if your conclusion is milder. It really seems like people only read the first and last paragraphs of Codex reviews...

 

[Vault Dweller]

I still don't agree with Grunker's conclusion that it's the best game. Best CRPG, maybe, considering Shadowrun OC's reception (you might argue Dragonfall doesn't qualify for the same reason as DOS).

I think he meant RPG. I do it sometimes, referring to RPGs as games when I type something here.

Also, I find this line, about POE being the best KS game, to be very damning of the entire system.

The entire system fucking sucks, which is why the publishers are moving in to exploit it. See Shenmue 3.

Look at Grunker's conclusion; it basically boils down to the best KS game being merely good, banging its head against a wall that it cannot surpass to become great. Wasn't the whole point of KS transcending the greatness of the great AAA games to achieve Total Supremacy?

Not from where I'm sitting. The whole point of KS was and still is to collect money in exchange for vague promises.

I was rereading Roxor's review and was actually surprised that it's a lot less vitriolic than the comments and reactions had made me remember. He goes out of his way to point out the parts that do work, and he backs every criticism with a detailed analysis and at least one example. In fact I think yours is in parts much more scathing, even if your conclusion is milder. It really seems like people only read the first and last paragraphs of Codex reviews...

Pretty much.

 

[felipepepe]

I also dislike this "best kickstarter game" kind of statement, even more when you're cutting out D:OS due to technicalities.

Why even say this? Is like forcing yourself to see a good side, like going "Fallout: New Vegas is the best game in the series that uses Bethesda's engine", or "the all-time best game of the past week".

 

[Eyestabber]

Nah, Roxor just published his review earlier, and when it came out most people (myself included) were still playing act 1. VD's review came out after pretty much everybody had already finished the game and, therefore seen all the mediocrity PoE has to offer.

Darth Roxor was a man ahead of his time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I also dislike this "best kickstarter game" kind of statement, even more when you're cutting out D:OS due to technicalities.

Why even say this? Is like forcing yourself to see a good side, like going "Fallout: New Vegas is the best game in the series that uses Bethesda's engine", or "the all-time best game of the past week".

Again, it wasn't my comment, I'm merely offering a possible explanation. As for KS, for the purpose of evaluating KS games, it's important to separate games that are almost done but need a push from games that are done from scratch.

Suppose I take AoD to KS now, collect 100k and use them to improve the visuals. Would it be a Kickstarted game? No. Anyway, overall, it hardly matters if PoE is the best Kickstarted game (or a best BG clone) or not. Personally, I think that WL2 is better and Shadowrun is much tighter and focused and more fun.

 

[Prime Junta]

Not from where I'm sitting. The whole point of KS was and still is to collect money in exchange for vague promises.

Or all-too-specific promises. Cf megadungeon, stronghold, 11 classes, 8 companions, oldmanpaco's golden codpiece.

 

[Sceptic]

Not from where I'm sitting. The whole point of KS was and still is to collect money in exchange for vague promises.

Yeah you never were a fan from what I recall, and POE isn't even as bad about this as things like Broken Age or the countless scams where the "devs" simply took the money and ran. I still think KS gave us some good things, and I don't regret any of the (very few) games I actually funded (Wasteland 2 comes closest, but I did enjoy it enough for what it is, and I've bought much worse games in the past), but it's turned out to mirror the publisher model exactly: preorders, empty promises, and the occasional good game in a sea of mediocrity.

 

[Infinitron]

The point of Kickstarter, for RPGs at least, is the resurrection of genres. Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment. It's definitely not about getting your perfect 10/10 fantasy game.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Wasn't the whole point of KS transcending the greatness of the great AAA games to achieve Total Supremacy? And "merely good" is the best we can do?

Well, frankly, most AAA games are tripe (even the "good ones), so "merely good" is still miles ahead from where I'm standing.

I personally don't care much for KS, but I do like to support indie/smaller devs, because they actually try and make good games rather than release shallow carbon copies of everything that's been done before. I don't remember liking a single game by a major gaming studio in the last 2-3 years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not from where I'm sitting. The whole point of KS was and still is to collect money in exchange for vague promises.

Or all-too-specific promises. Cf megadungeon, stronghold, 11 classes, 8 companions, oldmanpaco's golden codpiece.

Nothing specific about them. Megadungeon - what does it mean? Nothing. 15 floors with monsters to kill. Why not 25 floors? Or 50? Stronghold - what does it mean? Nothing. A map where you do nothing but play pretty house. A major city! What does it mean? Etc.

There are very few (I'm being generous here, I suspect the real number is 0) games where coherent design and a proper budget are presented. Instead we play the stretch goal game where for extra 200-300k you can get an extra companion! Woohoo!

Not from where I'm sitting. The whole point of KS was and still is to collect money in exchange for vague promises.

Yeah you never were a fan from what I recall, and POE isn't even as bad about this as things like Broken Age or the countless scams where the "devs" simply took the money and ran. I still think KS gave us some good things, and I don't regret any of the (very few) games I actually funded (Wasteland 2 comes closest, but I did enjoy it enough for what it is, and I've bought much worse games in the past), but it's turned out to mirror the publisher model exactly: preorders, empty promises, and the occasional good game in a sea of mediocrity.

Precisely. KS *is* a good thing and it did give us games we couldn't play otherwise but not because it's a good system that encourages transparency and accountability. What's worse is that the system encourages gaming it and making idiotic stretch goal promises that end up fucking things up. PoE would have been a better game if the developers didn't have to promise a stronghold, a second major city, a megadungeon, etc.

The point of Kickstarter, for RPGs at least, is the resurrection of genres. Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment. It's definitely not about getting your perfect 10/10 fantasy game.

PoE tagline?

 

[Irenaeus II]

I also dislike this "best kickstarter game" kind of statement, even more when you're cutting out D:OS due to technicalities.

Why even say this? Is like forcing yourself to see a good side, like going "Fallout: New Vegas is the best game in the series that uses Bethesda's engine", or "the all-time best game of the past week".

+1

I also agree that these kind of "best of with constraints" hyperboles are unnecessary.

PoE is the best kickstarter game because it's the best cRPG in the past 11 years (VtmB was realesed in 2004). I can only see Torment taking that title way.

 

[Irenaeus II]

The point of Kickstarter, for RPGs at least, is the resurrection of genres. Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment. It's definitely not about getting your perfect 10/10 fantasy game.

+1

Also a good point, even if no other great cRPG is made even in the following years after these kickstarters (I'm including WL2, D:OS and PoE as the greats here), the number of successful kickstarted games in the genre will mark this age as a resurrection. This simply can't be denied.

 

[markec]

Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment.

Perfect description of PoE gameplay.

 

[Infinitron]

The point of Kickstarter, for RPGs at least, is the resurrection of genres. Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment. It's definitely not about getting your perfect 10/10 fantasy game.

PoE tagline?

You laugh, but I'm dead serious here. They HAVE to be careful and cautious, yes, even to the point of "blandness". Especially Obsidian, with their reputation. If these Kickstarter RPG projects had turned out Troika-calibre bug-riddled flawed gems, your RPG revolution would have been snuffed in its cradle before it ever had a chance to walk.

So it's not just about resurrecting a genre, but also ensuring that it doesn't die again.

 

[Sceptic]

The point of Kickstarter, for RPGs at least, is the resurrection of genres. Slowly, iteratively, step by bloody step, with pain, anguish and tears of rage and disappointment.

Why? Why do we have to retread the same slow iterative steps that we've already gone through 20 or 30 years ago? Why do we have to go backwards from the games we're imitating instead of forward? Why do we have to carry idiotic technical limitations like poor pathfinding that were already unacceptable 15 years ago? You've made your pitch. Your game is already funded. Why do you have to play it safe at any level? Go crazy. Go nuts. As long as you stay on budget YOU CANNOT LOSE, you've already made the cost from preorders! ALL of it. If the point of KS is to redo the experimentation that the publisher model did decades ago then there is absolutely no point in it existing. If you're going to appeal to nostalgia by "reviving the genre" then revive the bloody genre as it used to be. Don't give me a half-heated watered-down version that plays it safe and is a step backwards because we need to go through slow iterative steps. You will fail at both appealing to nostalgia and at coming up with something new, and again, when you're entirely pre-funded and don't have a publisher breathing down your neck, there's simply no excuse for this behaviour.

Well other than what VD said...

 

[Irenaeus II]

PoE would have been a better game if the developers didn't have to promise a stronghold, a second major city, a megadungeon

I'm not entirely sold on this. I just don't know if the game would be better without the charming Caed Nua stronghold / Endless Paths of Od Nua backstory and the fun of the megadungeon exploration and combat gameplay. I also think the game would feel much smaller and more constrained without the very mystic and fantastical Glanfathan city of Twin Elms. Ok, of course, I could be wrong and Obsidian could have made a better game focusing only on quests in Gilded Vale, the whole Free Palatinate of Dyrwood area and Defiance Bay. Unless they added more areas to quest around, or make longer quests, I'm sure it would be a shorter game. And I already think the game is short as is (which is actually p. cool for replayabilty).

 

[Prime Junta]

Twin Elms could've been properly fleshed out if they hadn't been busy making level after level after level after level of dungeon.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Twin Elms could've been properly fleshed out if they hadn't been busy making level after level after level after level of dungeon.

Huh? I was satisfied with how well Twin Elms was fleshed out... Of course, the more the better, provided quality remains constant. I liked the flashing out of levels after levels of the dungeon. To me, it was like reading a good thriller, every level increasing in suspense. The final pay off when dealing with the Spirit of Od Nua himself was very satisfying, his reaction to his son's fate was heartwarming and the tale of his people endearing. Also, the whole Caed Nua / Od Nua story synergises very well with the other themes of the game, the resentment towards death and being forgotten, the search immortality of flesh and control of the soul. It even even mirrors Thaos's plot.

To add some negative criticism, I think the Adra Dragon story was subpar to the rest of the game and I was kinda disappointing in him, to be fair. At least I had the option to give his story a satisfactory correction, which I did in my first playthrough.

 

[Prime Junta]

Od Nua was good for what it is, but the rest of the game suffered because of it.

 

[Infinitron]

As long as you stay on budget YOU CANNOT LOSE

You absolutely can lose. Kickstarter projects have failed in the marketplace and their developers gone bankrupt or abandoned further projects of the type.

You will fail at both appealing to nostalgia

You will probably fail at appealing to the nostalgia of the hardest of hardcore of backers. Most of them will be satisfied, though.

Yes, I am stating that mid-sized "genre resurrection" Kickstarters are practically calculated by design to disappoint the hardcore.

 

[felipepepe]

You laugh, but I'm dead serious here. They HAVE to be careful and cautious, yes, even to the point of "blandness". Especially Obsidian, with their reputation. If these Kickstarter RPG projects had turned out Troika-calibre bug-riddled flawed gems, your RPG revolution would have been snuffed in its cradle before it ever had a chance to walk.

The RPG revolution was already going before Kickstarter. We had Dark Souls, Deus Ex: HR, Divinity 2, NEO Scavenger, Bound by Flame, M&M X, Grimrock, Paper Sorcerer, Underrail, AoD... RPGs won't live or die based on a few kickstarters.

More importantly, mediocrity won't lead us anywhere. Do you really, REALLY think that the takeout from PoE is "let's give them 2-3 more games to get it right"? No, if a Mass Effect fan plays a retro-inspired RPG and it's boring, the obvious conclusion is that retro RPGs are boring. Similarly, if old-timers like us back Obsidian to make a IE-inspired game and they fuck up like this, the conclusion is that they are incapable (or don't want) to produce the kind of experience we want.

A love or hate game like Arcanum would have been a resounding success, showing that KS can generate unique games and creating a devoted fanbase. D:OS achieves this, at least partially. A play & forget game like PoE takes us nowhere.