Review RPG Codex Review: Tyranny - You'd Think An Overlord Could Keep It Up

[ERYFKRAD]

Man maybe you should have him play Gothic instead. The tears will be more bitter the more he plays incline-y games.

 

[Lurker King]

I know there was a trend towards game developers hiring specialist 'creative writing'/humanities grads, but that doesn't seem to have worked out. They're people with no love or experience of interactive gaming, even in a 'interactivity as art' sense, and no idea how to write outside the linear 'cinematic gaming' crap. The best game writers have always been designers/developers who happen to have a side-talent for writing and creativity, because they understand it's an interactive medium, and that good film/book writing is terrible rail-roading when applied to games.

But that's exactly the kind of situation where they need a bunch of sub-editors to look over every inch of dialogue and in-game text. The designers should still have the ultimate authority over what goes in, but no sane designer is going to complain about having someone pick through their writing with the express aim of making them look good. They wouldn't be losing control over their ideas, but simply getting techincal assistance with implementation of those ideas.

It’s obvious for anyone who is paying attention that developers like Sawyer don’t give a shit about game design. He thinks that games should not be addictive because they hurt the environment, for fuck sake. For him, being inclusive is more important than the preferences of white male misogynistic gamers, especially if they don’t have a humanities degree. And by the way, they think they are hot shit, that their writers are hugely talented. Admitting othewise would amount to admit their own incompetence in the hiring process. It won't happen.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Tim Cain is the only dev I know who gets diversity right- diversity of ideas and perspectives, not goddamn colour.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Tranny was still better than PoE but i do agree unlike W2 it was weak sauce past the first chapter and ChYA introduction. Plus being elavated from the cog in imperial bureaucracy to being rival and usurper to Kyros in like 2-3 weeks only cause you did find few minor magic artifacts (and was the Chosen One again) was... Juvenile at best. If game would let you save your skin and become senior Fate Binder and Turgon right hand with perspective of becoming Archont in century or two (Second part) but only if you made good choices through hole game it would be less power fantasy and more something what Age of Decadence did so good; political simulator. Plus all the Kyros would need to do its to nuke those towers; its not like they were indestructible or you even know how to fully use their powers. I quite liked the not Roman Legion though and game was not as boring and bland like PoE was.

 

[ilitarist]

Post Act 1 narrative wasn't a problem, gameplay was a problem. Made all the choices moot. Narrative tells you it's a hard choice because you chose between a hard fight and giving in. But it's never a hard fight.

Yeah, I too don't like false advertisement. It's not "play as an evil person", it's "play as a cynical person". Didn't get the power fantasy side, only appeared right at the finale.

 

[Jarpie]

There are imo couple big reasons why game writing is nowdays so shit, my impression is that nowdays game writers and designers aren't actually interested of doing great games, they are more interested of getting "MUH VISION!" to get through, they don't know their gaming history (or haven't played the great games of the past), which is probably bigger reason why they suck. I think the game writing and designing, especially when it came to the crpgs reached its height in the late 90s or early 2000s, and it's been on steady decline ever since. I don't think it's just the writing itself, but also the design, those two have to match together, and nowdays I think there's too much disconnect between the two for the most part. If you are shit at playing games and rpgs, how can you then be expected to design and write one?

Also restrictions and adversity breeds creativity, before there were technical and diskspace restrictions on what game devs could put into the game so (I imagine) they learned to finetune their craft, and not to mention that the more you do, the better you should become. How many rpgs the Tyranny devs and writers have made, isn't this their first one? Are there any left from New Vegas or MotB teams, except for Sawyer? It can't certainly help that Obsidian seems to have quite a turnover.

As I have mentioned before on some other topic, the culture is nowdays vastly different, the culture of doing great rpgs which challenges the player are long gone, and they are not coming back. Every once in a while we might get games like Serpent in the Staglands or The Age of Decadence but they are going to be very few and the far between.

 

[Lurker King]

There are imo couple big reasons why game writing is nowdays so shit, my impression is that nowdays game writers and designers aren't actually interested of doing great games.

Nah, most games are poorly written because most developers are not gifted writers. It makes sense because it is difficult to be a writer, and even more difficult to be a good writer and a developer at the same time. Some few games tried to change this and make things more interesting (FO, FO2, PS:T, etc.) and then developers realized that writing should be handled more professionally. Thus, was born the writer profession in game design. The problem now is that the so-called “professional game writer” is composed almost exclusively by loose cannons with social commentary agendas attempting at the same time to imitate the classics. The result, well, the result is predictable: pretentious verbose wiki dump diarrhea that has nothing to do with the tastes of the actual costumers, the gamers.

So what we have is basically the worst of both worlds: not the simplicity of functional cRPGs, neither the interactive gameplay of FO or PS:T. The truth it has nothing to with the lack of passion for games. I bet that most writers think they are improving the genre. It is just that by an accidental combination of events, which includes the misguided prejudices of developers themselves, the game industry generated social incentives to attract these “types”. I finally get it why there is so much hate about storyfagism on the Codex. I sympathize, but the problem is not about our expectations about writing in cRPGs, it is the lack of decent human material. It is not as if Obsidian would suddenly make awesome cRPGs if they abandoned writing either.

 

[Lurker King]

What I liked about Vault Dweller’s writing is that it reflects that he is a well read and mature individual. He may not have the charisma and status of Chris Avellone, but at least he doesn’t care about gamey settings, player’s egocentric expectations and other simmilar prejudices. This makes his writing more mundane, realistic and interesting than anything we had before.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

He should have let whoever else was writing for his game do the main body of the writing. Playing the game feels like reading Vinney's posts.

 

[Lurker King]

So, basically the game industry is dominated by elites developers that doesn’t care about the plebes the gamers, just like the press is dominated by elites that despise their readers. They think they know best. Probably some of them at Obsidian are reading our forums right now to make jokes about our criticisms.

 

[ilitarist]

You make jokes easy with all this talk about writers caring about social justice more than game design.

 

[Jarpie]

There are imo couple big reasons why game writing is nowdays so shit, my impression is that nowdays game writers and designers aren't actually interested of doing great games.

Nah, most games are poorly written because most developers are not gifted writers. It makes sense because it is difficult to be a writer, and even more difficult to be a good writer and a developer at the same time. Some few games tried to change this and make things more interesting (FO, FO2, PS:T, etc.) and then developers realized that writing should be handled more professionally. Thus, was born the writer profession in game design. The problem now is that the so-called “professional game writer” is composed almost exclusively by loose cannons with social commentary agendas attempting at the same time to imitate the classics. The result, well, the result is predictable: pretentious verbose wiki dump diarrhea that takes itself too seriously and has nothing to do with the tastes of the actual costumers, the gamers.

So what we have is basically the worst of both worlds: not the simplicity of functional cRPGs, neither the interactive gameplay of FO or PS:T. The truth it has nothing to with the lack of passion for games. I bet that most writers think they are improving the genre. It is just that by an accidental combination of events, which includes the misguided prejudices of developers themselves, that generated social incentives to attract these “types”. I finally get it why there is so much hate about storyfagism on the Codex. I sympathize, but the problem is not about our expectations about writing in cRPGs, it is the lack of decent human material. It is not as if Obsidian would suddenly make awesome cRPGs if they abandoned writing either.

And that's what I was trying to get across, those "professional game writers" don't tend to be rpg aficionados, so IMO they don't understand what's required for to be good "rpg writing". I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society" instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say). One of the reasons why mechanical interactivity for storytelling or advancing the game is nowdays rare is probably because the (lead) writers and designers tend to be afaik separate. Big teams like nowdays probably makes it harder.

Taking itself/themselves too seriously is a problem yeah, but I think the opposite is also true, games nowdays are taking themselves too seriously or they are too ironic, self-aware or sardonic. I miss the whimsicality and earnestness of the older games, from the more modern games I'd say Knights of the Chalice and The Age of Decadence had this.

What you said about Vault Dweller's maturity, I have to agree, AoD shows that he has maturity and experience, unlike most of the game devs/writers nowdays who have probably lived and consumed shitty pop culture.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society"

Like the first act of Tyranny, which the review approved of?

instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Like the "juvenile power fantasy" second and third acts?

This is why I think many of the Codex's current theories of RPG decline lack coherence

 

[Jarpie]

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society"

Like the first act of Tyranny, which the review approved of?

instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Like the "juvenile power fantasy" second and third acts?

This is why I think many of the Codex's current theories of RPG decline lack coherence

I said good stories, not shit ones.



Edit: It'd be fucking boring if we'd all agreed on what's the cause for The Decline, it's a good thing we're not a hivemind. For me the cause is lack of the know-how and understanding what makes a good game design and lack of knowing how to "marry" the design, writing and mechanics into coherrent package.

IMO many people even in 'codex undervalues the importance of visual/graphical design and the writing matching. Like I said in the other topic, Fallout: New Vegas would be fucking amazing if it'd been done with better engine and fitting character textures/design to the writing/setting. The graphical style they had to use due horrible bethderp engine makes the writing feel much more juvenile than it would deserve.

 

[pomenitul]

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society"

Like the first act of Tyranny, which the review approved of?

instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Like the "juvenile power fantasy" second and third acts?

This is why I think many of the Codex's current theories of RPG decline lack coherence

An eschatological belief in the decline is the Codex's unbudgeable cornerstone. Muddled theorizations thereof are merely an added bonus, meant to kill time before the zealot's death wish becomes a reality at long last.

 

[Lurker King]

And that's what I was trying to get across, those "professional game writers" don't tend to be rpg aficionados, so IMO they don't understand what's required for to be good "rpg writing".

I disagree with you here. There is no such thing as good cRPG writing. If there were such a thing, it would be cRPG common themes, i.e., underwhelming generic fantasy settings and hero narratives. But that it’s precise what games like Tyranny offer. The reality is that there is good writing and bad writing, period. I think that good writing must provide some sort of experience that we would not have in our personal lives, and do this with some degree of verisimilitude based on a understanding of how the world works, more specifically, how people work. There is no particular school to be a good writer. You need a broad and solid cultural development, the habit to cultivate the language with care, a keen sense of how things work and a sense of relevance and elegance. The SJW individuals that are created in the cultural studies assembly lines have none of these attributes and think they have all of them, because they are used to low standards of culture and rigor.

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society" instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Yes, but even if they abandoned their activism, the result would not be stellar, for they have no talent.

One of the reasons why mechanical interactivity for storytelling or advancing the game is nowdays rare is probably because the (lead) writers and designers tend to be afaik separate. Big teams like nowdays probably makes it harder.

Yes, but here is the thing. The intellectual structure of the medium cRPG studios is based on inconsistent design sensibilities. You need to have a bunch of trash mobs and messy combat like in BG2 to please the ex-bioware fans, but you also need replayability, heavy writing, etc, to please the ex-interplay fans. The two things don’t go well together, but you stick to them, because you need to sell more. The result is PoE, Tyranny, etc.

Taking itself/themselves too seriously is a problem yeah, but I think the opposite is also true, games nowdays are taking themselves too seriously or they are too ironic, self-aware or sardonic. I miss the whimsicality and earnestness of the older games, from the more modern games I'd say Knights of the Chalice and The Age of Decadence had this.

I agree. The problem is not seriousness per se, but pretentiousness and shallowness. FO2 would be more better if wasn’t so filled pop culture and wacky stuff.

What you said about Vault Dweller's maturity, I have to agree, AoD shows that he has maturity and experience, unlike most of the game devs/writers nowdays who have probably lived and consumed shitty pop culture.

They read nothing but pop fiction and their explanation about everything can be found of facebook and twitter, that’s all you need to know.

 

[an Administrator]

Sheep was right.

 

[Jarpie]

And that's what I was trying to get across, those "professional game writers" don't tend to be rpg aficionados, so IMO they don't understand what's required for to be good "rpg writing".

I disagree with you here. There is no such thing as good cRPG writing. If there were such a thing, it would be cRPG common themes, i.e., underwhelming generic fantasy settings and hero narratives. But that it’s precise what games like Tyranny offer. The reality is that there is good writing and bad writing, period. I think that good writing must provide some sort of experience that we would not have in our personal lives, and do this with some degree of verisimilitude based on a understanding of how the world works, more specifically, how people work. There is no particular school to be a good writer. You need a broad and solid cultural development, the habit to cultivate the language with care, a keen sense of how things work and a sense of relevance and elegance. The SJW individuals that are created in the cultural study assembly lines have none of these attributes and think they have all of them, because they are used to low standards of culture and rigor.

True, but crpgs are at their best when they offer you different approaches, are you playing goodie-two-shoes, neutral or evil bastard etc. Being able to write different variations requires ability to take different approach when it comes to writing. I think being a good writer also requires at least some life-experience to write believable characters, and I agree with you about the sjw retards.

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society" instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Yes, but even if they abandoned their activism, the result would not be stellar, for they have no talent.

Agree with you there.

One of the reasons why mechanical interactivity for storytelling or advancing the game is nowdays rare is probably because the (lead) writers and designers tend to be afaik separate. Big teams like nowdays probably makes it harder.

Yes, but here is the thing. The intellectual structure of the medium cRPG studios is based on inconsistent design sensibilities. You need to have a bunch of trash mobs and messy combat like in BG2 to please the ex-bioware fans, but you also need replayability, heavy writing, etc, to please the ex-interplay fans. The two things don’t go well together, but you stick to them, because you need to sell more. The result is PoE, Tyranny, etc.

I think you can succesfully combine the two, but it requires skill, "luck" and the right people to do so, although it's probably good idea to stuck with either of them than try to please both crowds.

Taking itself/themselves too seriously is a problem yeah, but I think the opposite is also true, games nowdays are taking themselves too seriously or they are too ironic, self-aware or sardonic. I miss the whimsicality and earnestness of the older games, from the more modern games I'd say Knights of the Chalice and The Age of Decadence had this.

I agree. The problem is not seriousness per se, but pretentiousness and shallowness. FO2 would be more better if wasn’t so filled pop culture and wacky stuff.

Yeah, although many past crpgs from the 80s and 90s weren't very heavy on the dialogue or storytelling as such, but that was more of the conventions at the time, and/or technical limitations. What's the first "storyfaggotry" rpg, Betrayal at Krondor?

What you said about Vault Dweller's maturity, I have to agree, AoD shows that he has maturity and experience, unlike most of the game devs/writers nowdays who have probably lived and consumed shitty pop culture.

They don’t read books beside pop fiction and their explanation about everything can be found of facebook and twitter, that’s all you need to know. Nothing good can come out of this.

Yeah, they've probably watched just shitty animu cartoons and watched buffy the vampire slayer on repeat :D

 

[Ovplain]

I restarted the game a couple times, finished the first act once, but got bored with the game early into Act 2 and stopped playing. Never gave it much thought on why I got bored, but I guess this review might have a point. Shit nosedives.

 

[Nuclear Explosion]

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society" instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Many of Samuel Fuller's films try to "say something about society". Shock Corridor and The Naked Kiss are good examples of this, and both are very liberal/progressive. It is important to note that Samuel Fuller was a very skilled film director, whereas most video game writers are not skilled at what they do.

 

[Jarpie]

I agree about writers being nowdays mostly about "muh social commentary", which afaik comes from their education where their teachers tells them that what they write should be trying to "say something about society" instead of being interested writing "Good yarns!" (like the great film director/writer Samuel Fuller used to say).

Many of Samuel Fuller's films try to "say something about society". Shock Corridor and The Naked Kiss are good examples of this, and both are very liberal/progressive. It is important to note that Samuel Fuller was a very skilled film director, whereas most video game writers are not skilled at what they do.

Yeah, but afaik for him it was more important to have a "good yarn" than social commentary, which just came as secondary, he was interested in good stories about people. Underworld U.S.A, The Big Red One, Pickup on South Street and Steel Helmet are good examples of that.

 

[Lurker King]

I think it is about having the right expectations about the medium. If you too pretentious or too eager to convey your insights at the expenses of your audience, then you probably don’t have anything meaningful to say in the first place. You can convey meaningful insights about society or truthful things to say about people without shoving this in the face of your audience. People need to understand that movies are not books, they involve an experience too.

 

[Tigranes]

There's always a lot of speculation, but I prefer to start and end my judgment with the works themselves, rather than make broad, sweeping, unfounded comments. (In some cases, the dev in question might be going around everywhere yelling how much they love/hate queer people/slavery/SJWs/whatever, but afaik that's not the case with any of Obs writers.)

Ironically, what I see with Tyranny is not some overwrought effort at making a 'statement' about 21st century identity politics, but a struggle at designing plot/writing in a way that works with the structure of a video game, with the contingencies of a lower-budget CRPG, with the kind of gameplay they actually have, etc. i.e. 'learning pains' if we are generous, 'incompetence' if we are not - but I don't see anything in Tyranny suggesting that writers wanted the video game train to go to Critical Theory 101 and crashed. (If anything, something like Torment would theoretically be in greater danger.)

 

[Lurker King]

There is plenty of evidence to the contrary in past threads, but suppose their political beliefs didn't infected the game with their caricatural and manacheistic view of things. In this case, they are just plain incompetent. See my comment above about the result not being stellar when they are not shoving politics down the player’s throat. They promised an unusual setting with dictatorial political conflicts and what we have is another generic fantasy setting pandering to player’s ego and turbocharged by an idiotic and poorly implemented super heroes theme. What a mess.

 

[Tigranes]

Yes, but they can be hardly blamed in this case for being so obsessed with their STATEMENT that they don't just tell a 'good yarn'. The whole problem is that the second half of the game is a 'bad yarn', and the first half doesn't even really feature any overt STATEMENT.

If you want to advance a general theory about millennial vidya writers growing up on Mass Effect wanting to shoehorn their politics and their cinematic/literary dreams into a video game, fine, there's plenty of cases where that's clearly true. I'm not sure that applies to Tyranny.