Review RPG Codex Review: Undertale

[Lurker King]

The Codex is truly going down the toilet if overrated hipster shit like this ends being fawned over with neutral-positive reviews before some of the best real RPGs released in 2015 even got their reviews published.

Decline, decline never ends.

 

[likaq]

Even Kotc gfx is awesome compared to this pos.
Overrated hipster shit like this is serious contender to win 'most abysmal visuals in crpg contest'.

 

[Darth Roxor]

This was a hard review to write, as it's a game better suited to a spoiler-heavy analysis or something like that... but seems like it doesn't really matter much, as the game itself is controversial enough - people either loved it or despise its very existence. Would like to hear if there's anyone who genuinely played the game and disliked it for any other reason that "MUH TUMBLR!!!1"

I dunno about tumblr, but I mostly find your review to be a rather obnoxious fanboyish wank, and the ridiculous piles of praise put therein only discourage me from trying this game because reading between the lines I can only detect apologetics and 'MEN LIEK ITZ... SO DEEP!' coupled with various overblown and very mainstream gaming journo-like comments about the bestestness of ever of certain aspects being thrown left and right.

Since launching into heated and loud arguments about things you haven't tried/have no idea about is an honoured potato tradition, here's my wall of text on why your review kind of sucks.

So to start with the start:

Since those reading this have either already played Undertale or don't care about spoilers, I'll show you the entire first scene of the game:

You start off by saying that Undertale is somehow amazung and unexpected because the tutorial guide decides to kill you. Personally, the only feeling I'd get from something like that is 'eh', which only leaves me with the conclusion that you are very easily impressionable, and by extension puts the rest of the article in a rather unfavourable light.

In fact, it sort of reminds me of that one webcomic (that I can't find, unfortunately), showing a fat nerd launching a new Atlus game. His lvl 1 enemies are penguins and he goes "wow this game is so innovative and different", and launches into tears of joy when lvl 50 enemies are different coloured penguins.

Moving on...

Yes, it's a quirky JRPG lite, with 16-bit styled graphics, a surreal atmosphere, colorful characters, meta jokes, and clever trope subversion.

Considering JRPGs are already fairly 'lite' in my book, I can only imagine how banal would an RPG-lite-lite be. 'Meta jokes' and 'clever trope subversion' are another point on the stinker table because every single xXx_INDIE_xXx piece of shit and their grandma and their dog nowadays do "meta jokes and clever trope subversion", which mostly boils down to "sick memes!!!" and "wow the tutorial guide is actually out to get you! Deep!".

From the artwork to the soundtrack, from character design to battle systems, Undertale is easily one - if not THE - most coherent and consistent game I've ever played, where everything exists for a reason and I couldn't imagine it any other way.

This has already been mentioned in this thread, and I raised my eyebrow at this as well. Battle systems aka minigames with random quirks. Character design aka a spider queen, a skellington, a tsunderplane and a heroine (that looks suspiciously a lot like a Morrowind ordinator). You know what this excellent coherence and consistency reminds me of? The Kingdom of Loathing. Except that game was at least funny.

In particular, some of the characters it introduces are among the most memorable in the last decade - in design, personality, and presentation.

Same as above.

The meta-play is fantastic, too, as it fully explores the simple fact of playing a video game.

Gee, a game that breaks the fourth wall. This has literally never happened before. The uniqueness is simply frying my brian here.

And then we have this, which has also been mentioned

Unfortunately, talking in detail about any of that would spoil most of the game's fun, as it is something that has to be witnessed first-hand, not read about.

If this game is supposedly so very chockful of all those things, then I would assume "spoiling" one or two out of those 500 would not bring much harm. Instead, you pull the typical 'I JUST CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT, MEN' card, which always does nothing but raise red alerts for me. Can you really not talk about it because it's so very grate... or because it's quite the opposite and you can't find a suitable example that wouldn't be banal as shit or you are just recycling shit you've read about the game before a hundred times over to the point that it's replaced your own perception of it?

Which is why, for this review, I'll focus on a mechanical analysis and leave the feels and emotions as a surprise to the player.

Important quote that I want to leave hanging here for later.

You can attack them each turn by selecting "Fight", followed by a brief mini-game that has you time your key presses to deal more damage (the pattern depending on the weapon you have equipped). All standard fare so far, except the part that follows, in which the monsters retaliate in a bullet-hell/SHMUP section and you have to dodge their attacks with your character in the shape of a little heart.

So a QTE minigame is "standard fare" (you must be playing some pretty interesting games there my good man). Then this standard fare is followed by another minigame. Combat by two minigames. This is good? I'd say it looks like a popamole waste of time.

Not only does this combat system break the mold of JRPG battles and offer something unique, it's also expertly used for characterization and storytelling.

So you have 50% standard fare and 50% shmup that somehow offers something unique. Please point me to this uniqueness because I don't quite see it here.

A lazy dog will simply lay on its back and bark at you, a sad ghost will cry over you, skeletons will attack you with their bones, etc.

You know what? Forget it, I was wrong. That level 1 penguin enemy looks more creative and unique compared to this. "Skeletons will attack you with their bones", FFS.

It's not all the same quirky stuff either. Boss battles take the concept further, featuring a different gameplay logic unique to each boss.

now this sounds intere...

transforms the game from a bullet hell game into a side-scroller that has you jump over bones

... nevermind

#notallquirkyminigames

Moreover, combat frequently tells a story of its own, with some characters spending the entire encounter talking to you, evolving their attack patterns, and reacting to your actions.

ENTERING STAGE 1

KIND OF YOU TO CHOOSE YOUR TOMB, PROTAGONIST! *SHOOPS LAZER*

STAGE 1 CLEAR

ENTERING STAGE 2

HAHA, THINK UR SO SMART PROTAGONIST? TRY THIS! *SHOOPS MULTILAZER*

PLZ BOW TO HOW UNIQUE MY GAME IS

The final battle, too, is a constantly changing, 4th wall-breaking treat that employs tricks like crashing your game and corrupting your save file.

you call it treats

i call it wasting my time

An iconic monster, fitting for the Codex's audience, is the tsunderplane - an airplane that behaves like a stereotypical anime girl. She likes you, B-BUT DON'T GET ANY IDEAS B-BAKA!!

The most straightforward solution is to either flee from every battle or beat everyone to an inch of their life and then "Mercy" them away. It's basically the same as battling enemies, and not very interesting. If that was all that Undertale had to offer as a "pacifist RPG", it would be a rather underwhelming one.

The real highlight comes from interacting with and helping monsters - even becoming their friends! - instead of just attacking them. This is done via the "Act" menu, which features different options for different monsters in the game. That requires you to understand the monster you're facing, his issues and desires, and how you can help him - which can range from petting a dog to taking a shower or just laughing at the monster's jokes.

(...)

How does this translate to a pacifist SHMUP battle? She initially interacts with you by sending various planes across the screen without a care in the world. Touch one and you take damage. If you "Flirt", she'll get embarrassed but continue to send planes. If you choose the "Approach", she'll send the planes again, but this time with a green aura around, signaling you to get close to the planes without touching them (or are you a pervert?!).

Such an incredible display of restrained romantic interest will satisfy her, allowing you to "Mercy" her and end the battle.

So hold on, if I'm reading this correctly - "just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting 'mercy' " is not very interesting. But just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting mercy after hitting an 'act' button is suddenly the interestingest? Something doesn't quite add up here.

This isn't quite the revolution gaming journalists have proclaimed it to be, given that the Shin Megami Tensei and Way of the Samurai series have been doing this for decades

b-but... i thought it was supposed to be truly unique and stuff

Random encounters still happen, but instead of a monster all you see is a grim message - "no one came". They are all dead.

You cleared out a zone! This is very deep!

That also brings me to Undertale's "intentional design flaw": as you kill monsters, random encounters become ever more sparser. That's supposed to represent the world turning barren, but it makes killing the last monsters in each area a pain, as you walk for minutes waiting for the next encounter to trigger. It's boring, yes. But it's thematically tied to the entire theme of the game. You're not just attacking some monsters, you're going out of your way to kill'em all.

And we arrive at one of the things that bothered me the most about this articuru. Nigga, there's no such thing as an "intentional design flaw". If it's intentional, it's a decision. It can be a really stupid decision, but if someone intentionally decided to put it into the game, then odds are that person thought it was a good decision. I am 100% positive that this person did not affix his beret and scarf, light a cigarette and say "Oui, and now, to finish zis work of aht, I will make it... flawed! Zis subvehsin of treaups with intentional flaws is wot will elevate me to ze likes of Van Gogh *sips vermouth* ".

Not to mention that this is also hardly anything very groundbreaking in the first place. You go on a genocide - cops, bounty hunters and the CIA are sent after you. This is as typical as you can get.

Not to mention "it's boring but it's thematic". I don't give a shit how thematic it is. If it's boring, then it fucking sucks, and prancing around it with a flush on your face saying "ITZ THEMATIC, LIKE ART, SO ITZ ALL GUD!" is not going to change this.

And then there's finally this:

Other common nitpicks, such as asking for multiple save slots, calling the RPG system shallow or complaining about the extremely uneven difficulty in the Genocide route, are just silly. Those things are an important part of the game's overall concept, and I'm glad that no compromises were made on that front.

"Common nitpicks" like the game system being crap and like the difficulty being all over the place. Some nitpicks. Which brings me back to the quote I left hanging some time ago:

Which is why, for this review, I'll focus on a mechanical analysis and leave the feels and emotions as a surprise to the player.

Your focus on the mechanical analysis boils down to two things:

1. Telling me this game is 100% based on minigames and this is somehow gud.
2. Apologetics that every single flaw is "thematic" and thereby not a flaw.

On the other hand, when it comes to emotions, I've already learnt that this gaem employs the full gamut of friendship and mania, spanning from "romancing and befriending enemies" through "being a sick freak" and "feeling a little empty inside".

If this is supposed to be your focus on the mechanical analysis and leaving emotions aside, then do forgive me if I assume the game itself is nothing more than a cheap pretentious ride trying to nudge the player into "SEE? DIS IS HOW GOOD/EVIL YOU ARE!" and the actual gameplay is absolutely non-existent, or, to be more precise, the gameplay of the game is made up of other games (never a winning formula).

Which is why, to end this wall of text, I would like to give a counterexample of a game that I think is similar-ish to Undertale's "mission", but which doesn't devolve into idiotic gimmicks for people who hate video games.

That game is E.Y.E. - Divine Cybermancy.

EYE also goes into great lengths to subvert the typical video game formula, it also frequently breaks the fourth wall, it is often absolutely nonsensical, insane, absurd, weird, and also employs tricks that remind you that something very wrong is going down with this game. But even with all that, it does so within the confines of, let's say, good taste and subtlety, and instead of putting you up against memes and tsunderplanes whose function is not at all different from attention whoring "LOOK AT HOW BIG OF AN OUTSIDER I AM", it makes you ask legit questions whether the story you are going through is real, imagined or a tongue in cheek pastische.

Furthermore, EYE is not carried only by an oneiric storytelling gimmick, it is also a solid shooter in the first place that adds some ideas of its own to the shooter with stats formula, and for the most part does it fairly competently. Gee, I wonder why this didn't go up to 97 points in metacritic. Maybe because you can't play it on your fucking iphone while masturbating into a starbucks cup.

Truly, a conundrum for the ages.

That is all I have to say.

 

[felipepepe]

And then there's this little gem:

The meta-play is fantastic, too, as it fully explores the simple fact of playing a video game.

So are you gonna actually tell us what you mean....

I know you're just trying to be edgy and all that, but that's like the thing I talked most about during the entire review. I even made the entire final section about it.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Scroo]

I looove this game, seriously

I already finished it 3 times on the perfect path and can't get enough.

It's my GOTY 2015. And 2016. And 2014 because why not.

And the soundtrack

 

[Dark Matter]

You can look at any truly great game (Doom, Fallout, Thief, Dark Souls etc.) and find a shitload of articles and videos explaining why those games are great. Yet fans of this game want to pretend that it's achieved some kind of Daoist transcendence where it's beyond analyzing through descriptive language.

After watching the video, I can see why most people are reluctant to spoil the game since a lot of the appeal of the game seems to come from unexpected ways in which the game reacts to your choices. I can appreciate these things for what they are (cute gimmicks) and I'm sure if I stumbled upon them myself without expecting it, I would be slightly amused and have a momentary "oh that's kinda neat" reaction. But to pretend that these gimmicks somehow elevate the game to something great is just fucking insulting to all the games that actually don't need to stoop to making 4th wall breaking subversion their primary selling point.

Worst of all, these subversions don't fucking mean anything. So the game world and characters know and react to the choices you made in a previous playthrough. Does anybody seriously want this feature in an actual game where you're actually invested in the setting and story and not just playing it to experience these kinds of gimmicks? No? Then what interesting meta-commentary am I supposed to extract from this gimmick that supposedly is going to make me re-examine how I play traditional games?

This is like that Spec Ops bullshit all over again. People went on about how it makes you reflect on the mindless indulgence in violence of most shooters and yet I bet all those fuckers are still continuing to play AAA shooters like they always have.

As a comparison, I'll give you a good example of a game trying to subvert gaming tendencies. I've recently been playing AoD as a loremaster and I came across the suspicious merchant in Teron who tries to lead you to an ambush. Based on the character I picked, I realized that I had no way of coming out of that encounter alive and my only choice was to walk away and miss out on that event. As someone with completionist tendencies who tries to play out every encounter to its end (tendencies which are constantly reinforced by most games), the fact that I had to walk away was a bit jarring, because despite being a completely sensible thing to do from the POV of my character, it went against all my gaming instincts. In virtually every other game, there's no reason not to take up that guy's offer even if I know full well he's leading me to an ambush. Either he's telling the truth and I get a good deal or he's lying and I get to kill him for xp and loot (worst case scenario, I'm not strong enough and I just need to level up some more until I can beat him). In that small moment, the game immersed me in a way that few games do. Role-playing as your character in AoD isn't just about indulging in some fantasy, it's a necessity for finishing the game.

The game subverted my tendencies by punishing me for making dumb, reckless choices, and in the process it made me recognize how nearly every other game fails in this aspect. Best of all, the game managed to do this without ever having to compromise its setting and story by resorting to dumb 4th wall breaking meta-commentary.

 

[CyberWhale]

TL;DR version for everyone who can't force themselves to read this embarrassing rant.

 

[Kazuki]

I try it, kinda okay game i guess. Already finished and goes back replaying Underrail.

It just show you how forgettable this game is really.

 

[Darth Roxor]

TL;DR version for everyone who can't force themselves to read this embarrassing rant.

This is literally the worst game I haven't played to date. That’s right, I even had more fun with Dungeon Siege 3 - at least it was a fun romp, as opposed to this lifeless, uninspired husk.

 

[Daedalos]

TL;DR version for everyone who can't force themselves to read this embarrassing rant.

First you shit on Underrail like the faggy retard you are, and then you come here and sing UnderTaleFails praises?

Ban CyberFhaile

 

[CyberWhale]

You got that backwards: I wasn't shitting on Underrail, I was taking a dump on you. Not that it's necessary, you seem to be doing a pretty good job yourself.

 

[Cassidy]

Weeaboos and hipsters, weeaboos and hipsters never change.

 

[felipepepe]

You start off by saying that Undertale is somehow amazung and unexpected because the tutorial guide decides to kill you. Personally, the only feeling I'd get from something like that is 'eh', which only leaves me with the conclusion that you are very easily impressionable, and by extension puts the rest of the article in a rather unfavourable light.

In fact, it sort of reminds me of that one webcomic (that I can't find, unfortunately), showing a fat nerd launching a new Atlus game. His lvl 1 enemies are penguins and he goes "wow this game is so innovative and different", and launches into tears of joy when lvl 50 enemies are different coloured penguins.

That first scene is interesting because it shows it isn't just a "pacifist RPG" like people keep saying, and also shows the bullet-hell mechanic and the way characters are introduced and characterized via/during combat. As far as an opening scene goes, it sure sets the game apart more than "lol, penguins".

This has already been mentioned in this thread, and I raised my eyebrow at this as well. Battle systems aka minigames with random quirks. Character design aka a spider queen, a skellington, a tsunderplane and a heroine (that looks suspiciously a lot like a Morrowind ordinator). You know what this excellent coherence and consistency reminds me of? The Kingdom of Loathing. Except that game was at least funny.

Hard to call the battle system a mini-game when every battle is built over the same concept - which is so important to the game. During combat you must avoid shit - that's consistent. A mini-game would be having you hack into terminals or pick locks in an entirely different manner.

If this game is supposedly so very chockful of all those things, then I would assume "spoiling" one or two out of those 500 would not bring much harm. Instead, you pull the typical 'I JUST CAN'T TALK ABOUT IT, MEN' card, which always does nothing but raise red alerts for me. Can you really not talk about it because it's so very grate... or because it's quite the opposite and you can't find a suitable example that wouldn't be banal as shit or you are just recycling shit you've read about the game before a hundred times over to the point that it's replaced your own perception of it?

But I did talk about it and offered a few examples. I just FOCUSED on the mechanical aspect.

So a QTE minigame is "standard fare" (you must be playing some pretty interesting games there my good man).

Is not a "QTE minigame" ffs, you just have to hit the key at the right time to deal more damage:

It IS very common in JRPGs, especially on the Mario RPGs.

The final battle, too, is a constantly changing, 4th wall-breaking treat that employs tricks like crashing your game and corrupting your save file.

you call it treats

i call it wasting my time

This entire banter in a nutshell.

But really, if a boss that's aware he's in a video-game and tries to beat you by forbidding you from re-loading and crashing you to desktop doesn't sound interesting to you, there's really little reason for you to try this game.

So hold on, if I'm reading this correctly - "just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting 'mercy' " is not very interesting. But just battling enemies in a shmup and hitting mercy after hitting an 'act' button is suddenly the interestingest? Something doesn't quite add up here.

You must figure out what "Act" to use with each monster, and usually change the way you play in the SHMUP section as well. Yes, that's interesting.

And we arrive at one of the things that bothered me the most about this articuru. Nigga, there's no such thing as an "intentional design flaw"

Of course there is. You add something you know it's "not ideal" in order to make a point or test the player. Not being able to pause in Dark Souls, for example. (in before rant against Souls fanboys)

1. Telling me this game is 100% based on minigames and this is somehow gud.
2. Apologetics that every single flaw is "thematic" and thereby not a flaw.

Again, calling combat a mini-game is just stupid. it's consistently about avoiding shit with your little heart - most of the times as a SMHUP, but sometimes changing it into a platformer, a side-scroller or whatever (sometimes multiple times during the same battle). I call that taking one core combat system - dodge shit - and exploring it. Of course, if you want games that are 100000% consistent and every battle is exactly the same then I suggest you re-install Pillars of Eternity.

I did complain about how it has some pacing issues, but yes, talking about the other flaws I mentioned would be like ranting on how E.Y.E. - Divine Cybermancy has nonsense mumbles for speech instead of Nolan North doing the character's voice and that ruins muh immursion.

EYE also goes into great lengths to subvert the typical video game formula, it also frequently breaks the fourth wall, it is often absolutely nonsensical, insane, absurd, weird, and also employs tricks that remind you that something very wrong is going down with this game. But even with all that, it does so within the confines of, let's say, good taste and subtlety, and instead of putting you up against memes and tsunderplanes whose function is not at all different from attention whoring "LOOK AT HOW BIG OF AN OUTSIDER I AM", it makes you ask legit questions whether the story you are going through is real, imagined or a tongue in cheek pastische.

Furthermore, EYE is not carried only by an oneiric storytelling gimmick, it is also a solid shooter in the first place that adds some ideas of its own to the shooter with stats formula, and for the most part does it fairly competently. Gee, I wonder why this didn't go up to 97 points in metacritic. Maybe because you can't play it on your fucking iphone while masturbating into a starbucks cup.

True, I like E.Y.E. and think it's a really cool game that messes with your head. But it's one damn "flayed gem", that barely explains its gameplay, leaves you hanging most of the time and can be hard as hell. Of course it's less popular than the quirky 5-hour JRPG with 16-bit retro graphics.

They are trying very different things, comparing them is like Lyric-Suiting on how only retards waste their times with Savatage when they can hear *obscure 16th century composer*.

 

[HiddenX]

Henry Ford said:

If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always gotten.

So I appreciate games with new gameplay ideas or combine old gameplay mechanics in a new way. Thank you for the review, felipepepe.

 

[Martius]

Weeaboos and hipsters, weeaboos and hipsters never change.

I had no idea that Disgaea is part of Shin Megami Tensei.

 

[Siveon]

Weeaboos and hipsters, weeaboos and hipsters never change.

I had no idea that Disgaea is part of Shin Megami Tensei.

If you're referring to the Atlus t-shirt, that had me scratching my head too. I thought it was because Atlus published the first Disgaea game, or simply the fact that the "artist" just wanted to associate two things negatively. I'm probably thinking too much about it.

Codex liking this overhyped piece of RPG Maker is a serious sign of decline.

I don't think it was made in RPG Maker, actually. Besides, the Codex just publishes whatever review is handed in. I doubt all the staff agree with (or even care about) the review.

 

[Viata]

Weeaboos and hipsters, weeaboos and hipsters never change.

I had no idea that Disgaea is part of Shin Megami Tensei.

It's because Atlus fanboy is a current joke for being Fat(lus). So just use a fat atlus fan and you have yourself a weeaboo.

 

[Martius]

It's because Atlus fanboy is a current joke for being Fat(lus). So just use a fat atlus fan and you have yourself a weeaboo.

I guess that makes some sense. I think I even remember someone calling Dark Souls fans "atlus fanatics" since Demon Souls was published by them in North America.

 

[felipepepe]

The game subverted my tendencies by punishing me for making dumb, reckless choices, and in the process it made me recognize how nearly every other game fails in this aspect. Best of all, the game managed to do this without ever having to compromise its setting and story by resorting to dumb 4th wall breaking meta-commentary.

Undertale's 4th wall stuff is just a cherry on the top, at its core it relies on your interaction with characters, how they are always the same people, but you your actions can completely change how they act towards you. It's all about how making friends with the monsters and having them along for the ride contrasts heavily with the "neutral" route (where you just kill them/part ways) or the genocide route (where they are all hunting/hating you).

Just like AoD, it's something you rarely see in any other game - in games like Mass Effect or Fallout: New Vegas you can be an asshole or Space Jesus and characters will always interact with you basically the same way. At most you get a "hey, you killed 4000 NCR rangers, but pay us 100 bottlecaps and do this fetch quest and all is forgiven!" line.

 

[Ellef]

Minimal C&C in a 4 hour game, huge achievement.

 

[Zanzoken]

To the "why does this bother you/why not just ignore it" crowd -- games like Undertale are frustrating because of their success, and the extent to which it seems undeserved.

On the one hand we have small teams like AoD, Underrail, and Staglands that are reinvigorating the genre -- yet finding themselves in a constant struggle for recognition and financial stability.

And then this game comes along and is 90+ on Metacritic, getting promoted by journos and on Steam, and making millions -- not because it is some kind of masterpiece, but because it managed to hit that perfect blend of cute/weird/nerdy/quaint that hipsters love to attach themselves to so they can feel smart in front of their friends.

This feels like the RPG version of Flappy Bird. At the end of the day it's not that big of a deal but I just wish the energy and resources were being put to better use.

 

[HotSnack]

.

Skimmed the post, as I'm avoiding reading the review and things related to it until I play the game. But brofisted for letting me know E.Y.E. - Divine Cybermancy exists.

 

[felipepepe]

Minimal C&C in a 4 hour game, huge achievement.

Undertale packs more C&C in 4 hours than Pillars of Eternity in 80.

 

[hivemind]

because of their success, and the extent to which it seems undeserved.

I just wish the energy and resources were being put to better use.

and making millions -- not because it is some kind of masterpiece

kill yourself you crypto-commie