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RPG Codex - Top 50 WORST RPGs YOU'VE PLAYED vote thread

NotAGolfer

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And how much better than those is BG1?
BG1 is about as good as the rest of the classics IMO, give or take a bit.

Anyway, there is no need to dodge my question. I am curious and would like to know how you compare Skyrim to great classics like Fallout, Planescape, Gothic, Bloodlines, Deus Ex or Baldur's Gate 2, just to name a few. I am asking because you constanly preach how awesome Skyrim is any chance you get, like it is one of the best RPGs ever made, and are often offended when somebody states that it is not only a terrible RPG but just a shit game too.

(By the way, I find it quite amusing that you use the Todd Howard retard gif so often, even though he should actually be your game designing hero, seeing that you love Skyrim so much.)

I think even comparing those games to Skyrim is ridiculous. Skyrim is a first-person 3D action game only slightly more of an RPG than Far Cry 3 is. If you like open world action games I think Skyrim is worth playing, and a significant improvement over Oblivion. It's not even comparable to Morrowind in "RPGness" though, let alone fucking Fallout.
So now it isn't even a CRPG anymore?
:what:

What about the leveling mechanics, the only thing that's addictive and outstanding in any of the TES games? I mean leveling by doing might be broken shit balance-wise but until you realize that and get bored to tears by all the wimps in the game world it's still kinda fun, even in Oblivion (sadly mage builds suck in both Oblivion and Skyrim ... normally I love playing mages).
 

Cadmus

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And how much better than those is BG1?
BG1 is about as good as the rest of the classics IMO, give or take a bit.

Anyway, there is no need to dodge my question. I am curious and would like to know how you compare Skyrim to great classics like Fallout, Planescape, Gothic, Bloodlines, Deus Ex or Baldur's Gate 2, just to name a few. I am asking because you constanly preach how awesome Skyrim is any chance you get, like it is one of the best RPGs ever made, and are often offended when somebody states that it is not only a terrible RPG but just a shit game too.

(By the way, I find it quite amusing that you use the Todd Howard retard gif so often, even though he should actually be your game designing hero, seeing that you love Skyrim so much.)

I think even comparing those games to Skyrim is ridiculous. Skyrim is a first-person 3D action game only slightly more of an RPG than Far Cry 3 is. If you like open world action games I think Skyrim is worth playing, and a significant improvement over Oblivion. It's not even comparable to Morrowind in "RPGness" though, let alone fucking Fallout.
So now it isn't even a CRPG anymore?
:what:

What about the leveling mechanics, the only thing that's addictive and outstanding in any of the TES games? I mean leveling by doing might be broken shit balance-wise but until you realize that and get bored to tears by all the wimps in the game world it's still kinda fun, even in Oblivion (sadly mage builds suck in both Oblivion and Skyrim ... normally I love playing mages).

At best it takes like 2 hours to realize you won't ever in your whole playtime that spans hundreds of hours be forced to go back and lvl up before fighting somebody, so fuck off with this.
 

NotAGolfer

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Skyrim giants and wisp mothers disagree with you. I'm pretty sure there are other enemies you have huge problems dealing with early on but yeah, level-scaled enemies suck, news at eleven.
Doesn't make it less of a CRPG because shaping your character to become the sort of demigod you want is somewhat fun even without challenges. Fooling around with your skills, self-imposed challenges (beating up ash vampires with a spoon for example), finding the cheese builds, hence figuring out the rules (RPG rules, you see) behind the game and abusing them to your advantage, it doesn't always has to be about challenges. These games have more in common with stuff like Minecraft than with a more linear CRPG in that you have to make your own fun, because the game certainly won't do it for you.
 

DalekFlay

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So now it isn't even a CRPG anymore?

I don't want to do the tired "what is an RPG" thing, but I would at least call it a hybrid. In any case the stat-based combat already blended with skill in Morrowind is taken further steps down in Skyrim to at least hybrid action game levels. Yes Giants are super hard at level one, but then so are armored gunmen in Far Cry 3 until you "level' your gun or stealth skills through perks.

Where an RPG game begins and an action game starts is Codex question for the millennium, but at the end of the day comparing Torment with Skyrim seems like a dumb thing to do. Different games entirely, if not genres.
 

Cadmus

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Skyrim giants and wisp mothers disagree with you. I'm pretty sure there are other enemies you have huge problems dealing with early on but yeah, level-scaled enemies suck, news at eleven.
Doesn't make it less of a CRPG because shaping your character to become the sort of demigod you want is somewhat fun even without challenges. Fooling around with your skills, self-imposed challenges (beating up ash vampires with a spoon for example), finding the cheese builds, hence figuring out the rules (RPG rules, you see) behind the game and abusing them to your advantage, it doesn't always has to be about challenges. These games have more in common with stuff like Minecraft than with a more linear CRPG in that you have to make your own fun, because the game certainly won't do it for you.
Dude I don't understand what are you arguing for? The game is shit but if you imagine it's fun then it's fun?
 

SausageInYourFace

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There is no doubt that level scaling is cancer.

But for one thing, the scaling was not as horrible in Skyrim as it was in Oblivion. Furthermore, you can easily change that scaling issue by mods. And last but not least, you could do what I did and just change the fucking difficulty slider. Seriously. As soon as I noticed that I got bored with dragon fights, I changed the difficulty and the next dragon I came across kicked my ass. Problem solved.
 

NotAGolfer

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Skyrim giants and wisp mothers disagree with you. I'm pretty sure there are other enemies you have huge problems dealing with early on but yeah, level-scaled enemies suck, news at eleven.
Doesn't make it less of a CRPG because shaping your character to become the sort of demigod you want is somewhat fun even without challenges. Fooling around with your skills, self-imposed challenges (beating up ash vampires with a spoon for example), finding the cheese builds, hence figuring out the rules (RPG rules, you see) behind the game and abusing them to your advantage, it doesn't always has to be about challenges. These games have more in common with stuff like Minecraft than with a more linear CRPG in that you have to make your own fun, because the game certainly won't do it for you.
Dude I don't understand what are you arguing for? The game is shit but if you imagine it's fun then it's fun?
Don't be retarded please. What I'm saying is that level-scaling and disconnect between char progression and story progression makes the story progression meaningless/uninteresting (either you always find challenges suiting your level or you wipe the floor with your enemies after exploring a fraction of the world and optimizing your char like in Morrowind) but that the char customization and leveling mechanics in themselves are fun enough to hook me for a while. Not long enough to play through any of them except Daggerfall.
Also you derailed the discussion. This was about if Skyrim is a CRPG and of course it is because the thing you spend the most time and care on is developing your char. Be anyone you like and toy around with him in that sandbox, that's the hook, the only thing it has going for it. Not the shitty stories.
If the player skills involved are tactical or twitchy in nature doesn't matter jack shit as long as all the different char builds play differently.
There is no doubt that level scaling is cancer.

But for one thing, the scaling was not as horrible in Skyrim as it was in Oblivion. Furthermore, you can easily change that scaling issue by mods. And last but not least, you could do what I did and just change the fucking difficulty slider. Seriously. As soon as I noticed that I got bored with dragon fights, I changed the difficulty and the next dragon I came across kicked my ass. Problem solved.
Not really, because dragons still scale with you. But you're right with mods, Requiem is all you need to make the char level and skills meaningful again. That's why I can't name more than 2 enemies that are sort of delevelled in Vanilla Skyrim, I simply didn't play the game unmodded long enough.
 
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Rake

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Sure I can see your point, Witcher 2 is too strong in those two areas for it to be considered outright bad and put on such a list, problem is those aspects of the game matter very little to some players and thus they see it as a bad game/experience.
Then maybe these people shouldn't have played it more than a couple of hours to begin with? I mean, if you are indifferent to the strong aspects of the game, you won't like it, but why would you stick with it?
I found Morrowind bad and uninstalled it after a couple of hours, but i wouldn't call it an irredemable peace of shit, or the worst game ever. It had many strong points, they were just things i don't care about.
Oblivion is bad because even people who like hiking sims consider it bad, not because people who don't like the genre do so.
Same with every other game. If mondblut considers PS:T or Fallout bad games, does it realy mean anything?
 
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zwanzig_zwoelf

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Worst RPGs I've played? Guess my list is pretty standard.

Fallout 3
Morrowind
Oblivion
Skyrim
Neverwinter Nights
Fable 3

Don't really remember any other shitty RPGs, and I'm glad I don't.
 

Cadmus

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There is no doubt that level scaling is cancer.

But for one thing, the scaling was not as horrible in Skyrim as it was in Oblivion. Furthermore, you can easily change that scaling issue by mods. And last but not least, you could do what I did and just change the fucking difficulty slider. Seriously. As soon as I noticed that I got bored with dragon fights, I changed the difficulty and the next dragon I came across kicked my ass. Problem solved.
That's amazing. So now instead of it being meaningless to lvl up cuz it's so easy, it's meaningless to level up because it's always hard. And by hard I mean you need lots of money to stuff your face with 40 potions in every combat and then you're fine. The difficulty slider is retarded and the first time I saw it was in Morrowind and I said to myself...hmm this is strange, why a slider? Surely the difficulty is about the amount of enemies, tactical challenge and AI being improved, quests being harder, so how do they manage to do this with a slider?
NOPE FUCK YOU, WE GIVE THE ENEMY +200% HP +50% DMG AND -50% DMG TO YOU, AHAH. YOU CAN SLIDE IT UP TO YOUR PREFERRED AMOUNT OF INCONVENIENCE!

Amazing difficulty setting, truly changes the gameplay experience.

I can sort of understand that Requiem MIGHT make it a challenge but..why the fuck would you want it to be a challenge? Challenge is only good when it's followed by a reward and a sense of satisfaction. How the shit is the Gamebryo engine able to provide fun combat? Because the game is so big and cluttered with useless trash, because the quests are fucking horrible, the voice acting and graphics are horrible, making the game harder in a relatively non-retarded way doesn't automatically make it fun.

Here's what I'd like Skyrim to play like:
Gothic eh I mean
New engine so that the combat is enjoyable. Preferably something not shit.
New voice acting by people who give a shit and have interesting voices.
New writing so that reading the dialogues is a pleasure.
New interface, completely. I'm now playing Might and Magic X which isn't even that great, but let's say we put that in.
Now that we have a mildly interesting world, let's change the gameplay to not shit as well.

Nothing ever is level scaled. Quest are cut by 90% and are now rewarded with powerful or interesting items or character points. Cities are cut by 50% and those that are left are packed to shit with every 2nd character having an interesting dialogue or a quest that takes place in the immediate area, uses environment, demands a specific set of skills from the player and his character thus many of them being hard or impossible to finish for some characters, and has more than 1 solution. No fucking quest compass. Or no compass at all, even better. Only the main quest or a little few more take you around the world, allowing you to explore shit.

Now onto the enemies: There's now around 10 dragons in the game, all with a unique AI, set of skills, name and all very fucking hard to kill and guarding a significant treasure that you can use to probably buy your stupid house or waifu or whatever.

Some other stuff: the dungeons are 3x bigger, nonlinear and require skill checks to find secrets and puzzles that aren't solved by looking at the opposite wall.
No fucking dragon shouts.
Potion drinking is accompanied by an animation like in Gothic.
Follower AI changed from fucking brain dead to at least not getting in your way.
Areas walled off by different difficulty monsters thus disallowing a totally free exploration.

Cool, can you mod this shit in? Then I'll maybe play this fucking game.
I forgot, add new music and change the art direction from fake nordic to fantasy/real nordic.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Amazing difficulty setting, truly changes the gameplay experience.

I didn't say it truly changes the gameplay experience, I said it makes the game harder. You complained about it being to easy, now the slider makes it too hard for you? I suppose it does what its supposed to do then.
 

Cadmus

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Amazing difficulty setting, truly changes the gameplay experience.

I didn't say it truly changes the gameplay experience, I said it makes the game harder. You complained about it being to easy, now the slider makes it too hard for you? I suppose it does what its supposed to do then.

No, I complained about the fact that nothing matters in this fucking goddamn piece of broken cock game.
 

NotAGolfer

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I can sort of understand that Requiem MIGHT make it a challenge but..why the fuck would you want it to be a challenge? Challenge is only good when it's followed by a reward and a sense of satisfaction. How the shit is the Gamebryo engine able to provide fun combat? Because the game is so big and cluttered with useless trash, because the quests are fucking horrible, the voice acting and graphics are horrible, making the game harder in a relatively non-retarded way doesn't automatically make it fun.

Here's what I'd like Skyrim to play like:
Gothic eh I mean
New engine so that the combat is enjoyable. Preferably something not shit.
New voice acting by people who give a shit and have interesting voices.
New writing so that reading the dialogues is a pleasure.
New interface, completely. I'm now playing Might and Magic X which isn't even that great, but let's say we put that in.
Now that we have a mildly interesting world, let's change the gameplay to not shit as well.

Nothing ever is level scaled. Quest are cut by 90% and are now rewarded with powerful or interesting items or character points. Cities are cut by 50% and those that are left are packed to shit with every 2nd character having an interesting dialogue or a quest that takes place in the immediate area, uses environment, demands a specific set of skills from the player and his character thus many of them being hard or impossible to finish for some characters, and has more than 1 solution. No fucking quest compass. Or no compass at all, even better. Only the main quest or a little few more take you around the world, allowing you to explore shit.

Now onto the enemies: There's now around 10 dragons in the game, all with a unique AI, set of skills, name and all very fucking hard to kill and guarding a significant treasure that you can use to probably buy your stupid house or waifu or whatever.

Some other stuff: the dungeons are 3x bigger, nonlinear and require skill checks to find secrets and puzzles that aren't solved by looking at the opposite wall.
No fucking dragon shouts.
Potion drinking is accompanied by an animation like in Gothic.
Follower AI changed from fucking brain dead to at least not getting in your way.
Areas walled off by different difficulty monsters thus disallowing a totally free exploration.

Cool, can you mod this shit in? Then I'll maybe play this fucking game.
I forgot, add new music and change the art direction from fake nordic to fantasy/real nordic.
Yeah, that would indeed be a great game... :greatjob:

So, and now stop daydreaming please. We're talking about Bethesda ffs.
Why the fuck should they change their formula when all the kids love to slurp their shit.
 
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DalekFlay

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Nothing EVER scaled is a recipe for MMO-like zone progression, which is ass. Skyrim had the right idea with higher elevations having tougher enemies and wandering tough-ass monsters. Their dungeon bosses could be real assholes as well. New Vegas did mostly the same thing, with Deathclaws in the mountains and specific areas, some gangs being tougher than other gangs, etc. The best thing to do is mix, in my opinion.

The rest of that list I pretty much agree with. Dragon Shouts are alright but being on a timer sucks, should have been mana or stamina. The writing and voice acting were better than Oblivion but still room for lots of improvement.
 

NotAGolfer

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Nothing EVER scaled is a recipe for MMO-like zone progression, which is ass.
well-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man-gif-the-dude-lebowski.gif

And I'm pretty sure that many of those tougher enemies higher up the mountains aren't really that tough.
Also how's that not the same as "areas blocked off by higher difficulty enemies"?
 

tuluse

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Nothing EVER scaled is a recipe for MMO-like zone progression, which is ass. Skyrim had the right idea with higher elevations having tougher enemies and wandering tough-ass monsters. Their dungeon bosses could be real assholes as well. New Vegas did mostly the same thing, with Deathclaws in the mountains and specific areas, some gangs being tougher than other gangs, etc. The best thing to do is mix, in my opinion.

The rest of that list I pretty much agree with. Dragon Shouts are alright but being on a timer sucks, should have been mana or stamina. The writing and voice acting were better than Oblivion but still room for lots of improvement.
Are you saying different strengths of enemies in different areas is a form of scaling now? Because that would be using the term as the opposite of how everyone else is using it and would lead to much confusion.
 

DalekFlay

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Are you saying different strengths of enemies in different areas is a form of scaling now? Because that would be using the term as the opposite of how everyone else is using it and would lead to much confusion.

I'm saying having the lowlands canon fodder bandits scale to some degree isn't a bad idea. Nothing near Oblivion standards, but something like "bandits on the roads scale in level from 1-20 and equipment from iron to dwarven" while in the mountains outside Whiterun there are always sabercats that are level 10+ or whatever. I'm not going to break it down into a table. The point is to have freedom to move around you need most common areas to be relatively static in challenge, while certain "off the path" areas are varying in difficulty. If the valley is always level 5 and the swamp always level 10 and the mountains always level 15 then it leads to very linear and static exploration.

Skyrim and New Vegas did it decently, but there is still room for improvement.
 

Cadmus

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Are you saying different strengths of enemies in different areas is a form of scaling now? Because that would be using the term as the opposite of how everyone else is using it and would lead to much confusion.

I'm saying having the lowlands canon fodder bandits scale to some degree isn't a bad idea. Nothing near Oblivion standards, but something like "bandits on the roads scale in level from 1-20 and equipment from iron to dwarven" while in the mountains outside Whiterun there are always sabercats that are level 10+ or whatever. I'm not going to break it down into a table. The point is to have freedom to move around you need most common areas to be relatively static in challenge, while certain "off the path" areas are varying in difficulty. If the valley is always level 5 and the swamp always level 10 and the mountains always level 15 then it leads to very linear and static exploration.

Skyrim and New Vegas did it decently, but there is still room for improvement.
At the risk of sounding even more retarded by repeating myself:
No level scaling is necessary at all, ever. Look at Gothic. Have you played Gothic? Because that's how you do open world exploration while retaining the challenge, satisfaction from character progression and a rewarding feeling after a fight.
I'm sure there are even better examples.
 

DalekFlay

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At the risk of sounding even more retarded by repeating myself:
No level scaling is necessary at all, ever. Look at Gothic. Have you played Gothic? Because that's how you do open world exploration while retaining the challenge, satisfaction from character progression and a rewarding feeling after a fight.
I'm sure there are even better examples.

Gothic and Risen are different styles of game to some extent. They don't even respawn enemies, and there is some static progression in those games. Also rolling through the easy enemies in them long after they were challenging can get boring. Not saying Gothic 2 and Risen are poor games, they're fucking amazing, but each direction has faults.

The point is don't see scaling as some evil enemy, it's a tool like any other. It can be used for good or evil. Scaling the canon fodder can be beneficial as long as your world still feels dangerous.
 

NotAGolfer

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I'm saying having the lowlands canon fodder bandits scale to some degree isn't a bad idea. Nothing near Oblivion standards, but something like "bandits on the roads scale in level from 1-20 and equipment from iron to dwarven" while in the mountains outside Whiterun there are always sabercats that are level 10+ or whatever.
No, that's a recipe for generic filler content which is always boring. Less trash mobs, more context-dependent encounters. Fill the game with stories, not the fucking useless historic lore TES has in abundance but actual stuff happening while you play. And then let the player figure out what sort of adventure he thinks his char is capable of doing at the current level (so there have to be options to scout areas or enemy camps, f.i. by magic; or getting intel by listening to natives at an inn etc) but unlevel these adventures or else it will turn into just another boring mindless clickfest. Make some adventures easier for some builds so the perfect order to do them isn't the same for all builds and provide enough adventures so players can choose from a greater variety. And make some of them mutually exclusive.
I don't say quests because the concept of quests in CRPGs bothers me, their structure often is far too restricted and the gameworld isn't involved in them / doesn't change because of them most of the time.
 
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DalekFlay

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I don't think you understand

Man your rebuttals, so thick with detail. Games like Morrowind and Skyrim have tons of trash combat as you move about the world be their very design. Even Gothic has this, they just slowly remove it from the endgame via no respawn. You wanting more specifically designed encounters in the open world traversal sections is a very "linear versus non-linear" argument. To have no filler bandits on the roads Skyrim would literally have to completely change the kind of game it is.

Their options according to most are to have that filler traversal combat be scaled or not scaled. Both present specific challenges. If the swamp enemies are always level 20 then no one will do the swamp until at least level 10 or whatever, and doing the swamp past level 25 yields no challenge or reward. This has a certain appeal certainly, but it also has the downside of making the swamp a static and set location you'll probably usually do around the same time. Completely scaled results in the same level of challenge throughout the game, and as Oblivion showed it feels unrealistic and boring, and leads to issues like poor combat characters being outgunned by the enemies at all times. Nothing feels dangerous or unique.

However there is a secret third option people in this argument like to ignore: the almighty combination of scaled and not-scaled. What if the roads and other common paths in the swamp were scaled to a degree. You would see tougher enemies as you rise in levels, but also a mixture of lower level enemies. Then also what if there were parts of the swamp, say near the mountain or deeper in, perhaps around that witches' hut, where the enemies are always level 25? And what if there were random enemy spawns of higher level enemies, scaled to always be challenging, say "player level +5" or something. These combinations of scaled and not-scaled encounters make the world always feel dangerous, make filler combat varied and interesting, make the common areas of all "zones" accessible for exploration and still contain risky, challenging areas with higher level loot for those who can handle the challenge.

In other words: use all your tools to make the best game world possible. Scaling is a tool that can have positive functions, but you treat it as black and white. New Vegas and Skyrim both attempted to use scaling and static together to create a varied, challenging but also non-linear open world. Both succeeded and failed in different areas, and there is vast room for improvement, but the idea is sound.
 
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